Ammy Woes: How to overcome the fear of stopping when training a green horse

Except the horse didn’t stop because he sensed OP was “scared,” he stopped because he got to an impossible distance and had no other option. You can see he’s uncertain when he comes back around after the stop but OP gave him the ride he needed and he went through the next several times with no problem. If this were actually a case of OP translating her anxiety to the horse we’d see more stops without obvious causes and the horse would get less confident after a problem, not more.

Pro rides are great and have their place for sure, but no amount of pro rides are going to solve a problem that seems to be more about OP’s self-doubt than any actual training issues. OP may be nervous to the rest of the jumps but from the videos it’s clearly not getting in the horse’s way, so IMO the best way for her to build confidence is to keep jumping the horse. She has the ability to do this she just needs to learn to trust in that. Yes, a pro can put a better ride on a young horse than an ammy that’s still learning how to train, but if the ammy rider backs off every time they have a minor issue then she’ll never learn to do it herself. If things really start to spiral and go backwards then maybe a different approach would be needed, I just don’t see that from what’s been shown here.

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This is turning into a good discussion with varying opinions…looking forward to it continuing.

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I’ll also point out that not everyone has access to a pro that can ride any better than the OP here has demonstrated. There are lots of folks out there teaching lessons that have no interest in, or ability to, fix a problem or bring along a green horse. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case here.

OP, if you care to, can you clarify what the objective of these exercises was? I’m just not seeing a lot of logic behind choosing these exercise for where this horse is in their training. More like, well these are the jumps that are set up so go do X, Y, Z and see how it turns out.

Ex: That dang ground pole just randomly in the corner

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A few thoughts from a fellow ammy who could never afford a made horse, so has spent close on 40 years turning green beans into push-button A circuit hunters. OTTBs, ponies, my own homebred WBs.

None of this is meant to be harsh! I’m just a bit blunt.

Less is more. Always.

Less bit. What I see in the first video with the stop is a horse that is not only not “running away” he is not “taking you” anywhere. Even hunters need to take you to the base and beyond, through the standards and up the lines. They just do it softly, which is all from timing and balance and very solid flatwork.

He goes from curled with a short neck to above and hollow and spends little time reaching down and out, including at the base. We also have the combination of a mild leverage (raising) bit and a loose standing martingale. Which one do you actually need? Worry less about his head and more about his back end.

Couple that mild leverage bit with a lack of release (you even pull back on take off a few times) and you’re actually giving him very mixed signals of “go” and “don’t go” and not allowing the stretch, so he lands shallow and his stride is short. He can’t get out of trouble because he’s in a small box. I would think about shortening your reins and pressing on his neck (without tipping your shoulders) through the entire jumping effort to break that muscle memory.

I try to ride in the “least bit possible” on the young/green ones as well (OK, the mildest bit possible for each individual horse), because you will inevitably get into trouble at some point and, as an ammy, need to throw a bit of eq to the wind to get it done (heck, sometimes it’s OK to totally cowboy up to get one to the other side). A softer bit prevents unintended punishment from our out-of-balance hands in these moments.

Less complication. I see an exercise that is too much for the horse’s current skills and strength. There are poles EVERYWHERE in that small ring. Placing rails. Landing rails. Rails in the corners that disrupt the rhythm. Every. Time. You. Go. By. as he tries to either step over or skip past them.

A very good pro up here in Canada, with a very long record of fixing other pro’s problem horses, once put it to me in a very simple way that has stayed with me for years: a rider’s job is to manage straightness and pace, but at the end of the day, the horse has to manage his own feet.

Your horse is still learning where to put his feet and he’s being asked to tap dance on live television.

Couple that with the distance into the triple combo not being adjusted for the height of jump or skill set of horse and I have to wonder if your trainer built that exercise for the lesson prior that was more advanced and just couldn’t be arsed to change it for your lesson.

It also makes me question why this horse is being tossed into the jumper ring because he “can’t make the lines” in the hunter ring. He cannot master a simple course in comfort, so you throw a complicated one at him? Screw being competitive. Heck, screw horse showing at this point in his development! If a horse cannot comfortably canter up a 5-stride on a 12-foot step, it’s just not ready. Go ticket and train instead.

Less repetition in a single session. This one is really hard for us ammies who only get one lesson a week. We want to get the most out of it, and our coaches often want us to feel we “got our money’s worth” out of that hour.

An hour, ore even 45 minutes, can be too much for a green horse. And gymnastics are particularly draining, both mentally and physically—even for the experienced and fully fit ones, both horse and rider!

In the first video, we see you jump the two diagonals (gymnastic and single) a bunch of times. Then introduce a triple when he’s already a bit tired and losing straightness and focus from bouncing off the random rails on the short ends.

I like to pick an exercise, do it well a few times, and be done. Reward the try. He did the first combination on the diagonal really well a bunch of times. So did you. Hooray! Let’s go have a treat and a good curry and save the more complicated and imposing exercise for the next lesson.

OR, focus on the triple from the start if that is the goal of the day. Start with one element. Add the second element when he’s confident. Add the third when he’s confident with that. Maybe even put it up a bit if all is going well and he’s not mentally or physically tired.

If he gets it all right the first time, fantastic! Short lesson, but worth every penny.

A few other thoughts:

Does your saddle fit both of you? I see your foot well out in front instead of heel under point of hip. This has you posting out of the back of the saddle with your reins longer than ideal. This same mechanics can cause us to tip the shoulder on take off in an attempt to stay with the push, but then snap back a bit on the downward arc. This can also cause your horse to land shallow and shorten his step. Or it can cause one to rush take off. Or it can throw off their balance and prevent them from saving you in a not-ideal distance, causing a stop.

Try trotting in two-point with your heel under your hip, without using your hands to balance. If you tip backwards, try lengthening your stirrup a hole. If you tip forwards, try shortening your stirrup a hole. Still can’t do it? Get the saddle fitter out.

Also, I can say that a saddle can be a great fit for you on your older guy and not a great fit for you on the younger guy. Confirmation and movement of horse and rider in combination are a thing!

Piano hands make tight elbows. Yours are slight, but there is a break in the line between bit and elbow, which may be causing the tight elbow issue. To break the muscle memory, flip your reins to “driving rein” position, so the part coming from the bit passes between your forefinger and thumb. Do that for a couple of flat rides, or for a few minutes whenever you feel your elbows getting tight.

I love your guy! He’s a quality dude with what seems to be a good brain. Agree with the others to take a look at front rads. I have a 1/2TB who can win the hack but still be “footy” on the landing side due to thin soles. Simple front shoes with pads are all it takes to keep her happy and winning. She turns 20 this year and is still showing (albeit cross rail division with kids now).

Or it could be that mild “footiness” some of us see in the video is actually hiding from too much bit and a saddle that doesn’t fit. Or a combination. But better to know for sure!

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You got some fantastic advice on this thread. I absolutely see a horse with an ammy friendly brain. He got put in a difficult situation and just stopped with no drama. To me that’s the definition of an ammy friendly green horse. Then he was willing to try again, with no drama. What good boy.

The fact that you have another more seasoned horse to ride also works in your favour to put deposits back into your confidence bank when this guy makes withdrawals, as is to be expected as an ammy learning to train a green horse.

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OP, we have had a somewhat similar thread running for some time, think it is the “Will it always be this hard” thread. It is long but there are some similarities…if that is the right thread.

Anyhow, among other similarities, that OP was hung up on getting “the numbers” among other things and when she made a few changes over a year, there was a dramatic improvement. IIRC that was an OTTB around the same age as yours. Good read. Might help your thinking process and approach to teaching this horse how to get around.

Also, you know in Jumpers a more accurate track to the base can break the timers faster than going faster. Shape your corners and get/stay straight over properly set fences, get to the base and most horses can get the numbers at 12’. Easy. Thats why Pros who start Jumpers start them that way until they gain confidence, strength and balance which is the basic foundation of both Hunter and Jumper. You build on that.

Also have a little ussue with the “he cannot get the lines so he has be a Jumper” Really? Just think about it. Most of our problems are in our heads, the riding part is the easy part.

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I so get this- You ride well, btw. I find that sometimes I have to “pig-ride” my young horse to the jump when I don’t trust him. Lean back going to that last oxer- At the very least you will be more likely to stay in the tack, and it might give the confidence to go forward, Also, since you have ground help, have her drop the jump down then put it up incrementally.

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@DarkBayUnicorn, your post is a really good one. It reminded me of a clinic I did with Joe Fargis. After horses jumped a difficult gymnastic, which he built up slowly, he lowered it to make it easy for them to finish with.

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Thank you all!

@findeight : my posts usually have the same theme for sure. Always different parts of my riding but same theme :joy:

My older OTTB is 8. I got him as a 3yo and done 90% of the work myself the other 10% have been trainer rides. I trust him with everything I have. He has been beyond good to me. So he is easier to be softer with.

My younger I do ride more defensive for the fear. It appears that it starts in my hands forming solid fists which stop my elbow movement along with tensing other areas. When he gets heavy I grin with my lower leg. Wall meet wall. These are all bad habits from a previous horse I have before. He has since been rehome with his previous owner but I want to solve the issue.

The poles on the ground are to help me shape my horse going forward to keep pace to the line. I tend to use more outside rein, leaning my horse in and slowing them down trying to fix it. So the poles were a guidance for me. The triple is for my inability to sit DOWN and up fast enough and then releasing correctly to the next jump. Usually I stay in a half seat and plant my hands. Obviously causes rails when I do 1.10m blocking the hind end from full motion.

This winter we have been working on. A softer hand and elbow with a true release instead of planting my hands. At the lower heights the horses can deal, but moving to 1.10m+ those are my rails. I struggle to find the horses rhythm with following after a jump. I tend to be offbeat with him which then causes me to be on the backward motion of the follow as he’s taking off. I hope all this makes sense.

Today was a much better lesson working on softening my hands and trying to trust him. Not great but better

Edit to add: I did talk to my trainer today and we decided she will get on him once a month for now and do the more complex confident building and I work on my stuff the other times.

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Realizing what you are doing is the first step in not doing it anymore. Sometimes we need a little nudge in the realization process.

It’s all good. Honestly, you might find adding a simple neck strap extremely helpful. I sure did.

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Thank you!

I would love to clinic with Joe Fargis!!

We’ve always said “End with something easy, so you’re sure to finish on a good note with confidence.” That can be jumping through a grid that is lowered, trotting around on a loose rein or going for a nice walking hack to cool off.

My current horse (the real DarkBayUnicorn), bred and raised almost 100% by this ammy, really, really struggled with lead changes as a young horse. We eventually figured out castration scar adhesion was behind it, but by the time we got that treated, got a new saddle, and rehabbed some compensatory stifle and SI issues, he still had a minor meltdown if we missed the lead landing on course.

I ended up working with a good dressage coach to help me break down flying changes into distinct component parts. We went right back to the quality of the canter depart. Like walking across the diagonal and asking for canter at the precise moment the new inside hind was stepping over a rail level of breaking it down. We went back to simple changes while jumping to de-couple flying changes from complication of jumping things in his memory.

When he started offering flying changes on the flat, I would ask for one a day. Just one.

If he gave it clean, he was done for the day. Huge “Good Boy!” and employment of the ‘petting brake’ instead of the reins to pull up, and cookie fed from the saddle, then off to hack on a long rein (he is a Nosy Parker who loves to get out of the ring and see the world, visit the neighbors, watch a bunny hop along the trail, etc).

If he missed the change. We walked, turned around, and used the walk-to-canter pole strike-off again. Rewarded the try and off to hack. No drilling. Ever.

Eventually, we could do 2-3 changes a day before the cookie and hack. We did a change each direction every ride until they stopped being a big deal. Then, and only then, we started asking for leads while jumping.

Today, he owns lead changes and, while not quite automatic, pretty darn close. Because we always rewarded the try, and always ended on a good note. Took longer than most people would like, perhaps, but since this one is mine for life, I had all the time in the world.

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@DarkBayUnicorn, This is exactly how we do things. It was very nice of you to spend the time to write such a great post!

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Sorry but, they’re all your fault. Very very rarely does a horse actually stop out of malice or for sh*ts and giggles. Just because you “fixed” whatever you did that caused the first stop, doesn’t mean you fixed the mental hurdle for him to go over it next time.

Your horse is green, there is no “defeats the point” right now, no matter what your intended discipline is. You have to teach him confidence over fences before you start worrying about a longer stride for the hunter ring. If adding helps build his confidence, you add.

Stoppers can easily kill the rider’s confidence. Your best bets are to either have him in full training for a few months, or sell him. It’s okay to acknowledge if it isn’t a good fit.
But if you want to stick it out and help him build confidence over fences, he’ll make you a better rider.

He is REALLY cute and you’re a lovely rider. He looks an honest guy, but not the most forgiving. Time will tell if it is because he lacks confidence, or if that’s just the kind of horse he is. The video is pretty par for the course with greenies, and I’m glad your trainer put the oxer down to an x for your try through after the stop. The distance was definitely not correct, and he is not confident nor experienced enough to have figured out how to get out, so he (quite politely, IMO) put on the brakes. You should be trotting in to combinations IMO, until he’s a little further along.
I also think your trainer is possibly pushing you both a bit more than you’re ready for as a pair right now. If you want to keep him, and keep doing most of the training yourself, I would recommend bringing back your expectations a bit and going slower. Not really about height, but in technical questions. Don’t just go right to a triple combo after doing some warm up jumps. Make it an in-and-out, and add the third once he’s going through the two without a single thought.

I understand the stops are making you ride more defensively. To combat that, you need to strengthen your position and bring your leg back a bit. You’re in a bit of a chair seat now, which is making it much harder for you to both get out of the saddle, and stay out of it. A stronger position will give you more confidence in the saddle.

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Your post is excellent!

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I watched the first video. This horse is super cute. You are a good rider. To me, it looked like when you came out of the turn he was expecting to go across the ring, as you had been doing; was surprised by a rather late ‘no we’re going straight,’ and just got overwhelmed by the combination. It wasn’t a dirty stop, it was a scared stop.

I was also struck by how little you praised him. Praise him!!! Say “good boy!” In a big happy voice and give him big pats and mane ruffles. He is so cute and willing, I didn’t see you rewarding any of this. Praise praise praise to bolster his confidence. And it will help lighten up the mood a bit— the atmosphere seemed a bit tense.

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This is a really good point, and I don’t drag it out to bully you, OP, but I’ve found that TBs in particular love verbal praise and cues. They get A LOT of it from the time they’re wee lads or lasses, and if you’ve ever watched a helmet cam from an exercise rider or jock, they’re chattering away a lot of the time. Even just a rub on his shoulder and an “Easy!” might get you the reaction and reassurance you both need.

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So many people far more qualified than I have given advice. Just chiming in to say THANK YOU for being willing to share a video and allowing a lot of great dialogue without shutting things down or being combative. The online world can be harsh and I understand why people are reluctant to share. However, this thread has been so educational and will likely help a lot of horse/rider combos.

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I was going to say this. My horse is far less green, bold, has jumped a triple combo at the 1.10m height at shows, and when we do gymnastics at home we still build it up slower and would not have started with that as it was. We usually start with one or two jumps and the rest ground poles and build from there. It will never hurt to go too slow.

I was really impressed with how confidently your horse was jumping through the in and out to the pole. You two look like a nice pair, but your horse is being overfaced (and you are being overfaced as a pair). You don’t say how long he’s been off the track, but him jumping around at shows that well with the add it a big accomplishment. Saying things like “well whats the point if its the add” hints that maybe there is a little bit of a rush.

I also notice that while he wants to rush at times and is tense through the downward transition, he doesn’t look especially hot or strong. That is a lot of bit, and you can see him curling inward at times. Any mistake you make with your hands is going to be amplified ten fold by that.

My suggestion would be lots of flatwork, lots of polework, and lots of singles and lines at a height you both feel confident at. Take out the trappy gymanstics and let you both feel confident for a bit, then introduce one or two harder elements at a time (not a triple out of a tight turn with a busy oxer in the middle).

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I didn’t even notice the elevator bit, the video was too small on my phone. Yuck.

OP, why are you riding him in an elevator bit? Those are not hunter legal. I’m confused on why you’re concerned about “not doing the add” because of hunters but are using this bit.
And an elevator with converters on your chestnut.
Are you in Ohio? I can think of a few barns where this would be standard there.
I am less than impressed with your trainer.

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But he’s tripping over them and loosing his pace and line. Maybe put a pylon in the corners to go around?

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