All I have to say is BRAVO to the writer, Leslie Kagen.
Very well done. 
“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H
trainers, barn operators, show operators, the whole lot of em are taking a hit as disposable income is down. you should expect: some to go out of buisness or reorganize, some to seek ways to squeeze more revenue from existing customers, some to seek new or the other guy’s customers.
keep your hand on your wallet and just say no!
until any deal is fully explained, and documented.
I won’t include Beezer’s post here due to the length 
, but I agree completely with what she (and SGray) wrote.
No one, including me, has said that professionals don’t deserve to make money. When they work for it.
Certainly, if someone finds the “deal of the day”, writes the check and brings it home thinking they can resell it for more money, and does, yahoo!!
BUT if the marked up price is quoted to the prospective client while the original seller still owns the horse, that is wrong.
Frankly, I even have a problem with the scenario where the pro writes the check with a potential client in mind, brings the horse home, the client likes the horse, the pro knows how much the client can spend, and that’s the new price of the horse. What’s wrong with meeting in the middle somewhere? The pro made money, the client spent less than (s)he planned; everybody’s happy.
I say Amen, and thank-you!!
BarbaraG
GWV 
Kryswyn, true, when you leave a barn it is usually for personality or philosophy conflicts, they weren’t taking care of your horse, or you were run out for non-payment.
But, if these experiences/opinions are not discussed by either the pro or the customer, how are newbies to the sport to know what’s acceptable vs. unacceptable in the industry?
A lot of times it can be detrimental to the pros, especially if people are lying, but would you want to move your horse to a barn if it had a reputation for poor care? Just a thought.
would be great, 2Dogs!
Unfortunately, living out here in California, I will not be getting the August 30th issue until approximately 9/13. 
What an interesting discussion!
My question, is what about the so-called “barn’s commission”? I was boarding at a H-J show barn, and friend who was in town for a clinic brought by a cute horse for another friend of mine (who didn’t board at the show barn, and didn’t take lessons there) to try. The barn’s only involvement in the trial was to accept the check for three days of boarding (when they had empty stalls). Yet when they horse sold, I was informed that the barn was entitled to 10% commission on the horse. We didn’t pay it, the new owners didn’t pay it, and everyone moved barns thereafter. Left a heck of a sour taste in my mouth. I can only guess that enough people pay that kind of fee to make them think they had a hope of getting it.
Good grief. It’s that kind of behaviour that gives the sport a bad name.
Excellent letter… I can think of a few more I would like to add to this list. And I wish that horse sellers had to follow an ethics code, disclosure code and be held accountable. Lately, I have seen what I consider some very unethical behavior.
I think it was something like $200… we offered her the commission, but she didn’t think what she did was worth it. 
AND she did FAR MORE than some other folks have done.
*Found the horse, rode him a week before I went to look at him (I was injured).
*Determined that we would be a good match and had me come to look at the horse.
*Came with me to look at the horse three times (Twice as lessons, ie- instead of a lesson we went and rode the horse)
*Arranged the vetting and was there. Helped us nego the price.
Now I am selling said horse because I have moved. The woman who owns the farm where my horses are is acting as agent.
Dressager
Overseas Clique
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is an earned title and few seem to wear the crown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hate to disagree but…
[B]pro?fes?sion?al Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1A. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
1B. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
- A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
- One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
- A skilled practitioner; an expert. [/B]
One of the sticking points in this country is pretty much that anyone can hang their shingle and call themselves a trainer… and a professional trainer at that (see definition adjective 2 or noun 2). I’ve known a few that I wouldn’t consider a professional any more than I’d consider myself one (see definition adjective 4 or noun 3).
PS. I too would love to see the article.
If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!
“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy
Kudos to the author of that letter. Excellently written.
And timely as I have 2 horses for sale, both at the same barn, but the trainer is involved in only one. The one she is involved in the sale of, she gets 15% commission. She will do all the leg work of selling including making a video, calling trainers she has contacts with, and showing the horse to potential buyers. If she tells me that my dtr should not jump him while she is trying to sell him, you can bet that my dtr will do no more than a quiet hack. The other one - he’s on pasture board and not in training or showing. If I pay her for anything, it will be an occasional ride on him at standard training ride rates, but otherwise, she is not doing anything to sell him, so no %.
After reading all this, I now know I need to insist on meeting the buyer of horse #1, that payment be made to me, and when that payment is confirmed at my bank, I will pay the commission.
On the other side, the same trainer is looking for a replacement for horse #1. Unfortunately, I will pay her 15% for that, also. A lot less work will go into finding a horse for my dtr than selling the one we have. But, I will pay that 15% because I am asking for her advice and recommendations, and she will be the one to handle all the details of purchasing. Plus, I now know to make payment to the seller, not our trainer.
A big question I would like settled in my mind is what happens if after owning the recommended new horse for less than a year, we discover the horse and my dtr are not suited? Do I then have to pay her 15% to sell the unsuitable horse and 15% to find the new one? I think I will ask her that next week. Trainer already knows that whatever she gets for horse #1 pays for all commissions and the new horse. No negative cash flow. If we have positive cash flow, the dtr gets a new saddle.
^-^
Don’t ask me, I’m just the mom!
~Proud member of the Thoroughbred Clique~
If Dressage is Symphony, and Eventing is Rock 'n Roll, then Hunters must be R & B
This person did not directly ask for a commision but as she has not initiated contact in such a long time I figured that was what the call was for? This is why I asked if Maybe I should give her something.
I would rather not say who she is.She had been marvelous to my daughter before we became serious competitors and we moved on and when teaching was just a fun hobby for her. Things have to change a little when it becomes your livelyhood (SP? that looks weird) I guess.
JReed> I live right behind the Quentin Riding Club.
I don’t think anyone on here has any problem with someone buying a horse and selling it at a profit. In fact, it seems we all recommend it highly and would do it ourselves. Hopeful Hunter, good luck with your plan. You may or may not make a lot of money - sometimes these horses need more time to settle in and be useful, but I think it’s a good idea and I hope it succeeds.
The only thing we’ve been objecting to is someone looking for a horse for a specific person, finding a suitable horse, and then doubling or tripling the asking price and not telling either the buyer or the seller. That’s totally different than what you’re asking.
Well, hopefully newbies end up here so WE can tell 'em.
I think that’s a wonderful idea. There are already a lot of stories in this thread both good and bad that should give you a good basis for some research. And, I’m sure there are others out there that would be more than willing to offer up their advice and experiences as well.
I say GO FOR IT!!!
“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H
Whew! Just got back from looting, pillaging, generally stealing everyone blind…you know, being a (gasp) professional!
I’m sure some of you have had bad experiences buying and selling horses, but don’t assume I’m a crook because I make a living in this crazy business! (I do file 1099’s, Beans!)There are crooks in every business…can we say ENRON? But, please don’t summarily bash us all. I have run across some aweful owners in my time too. Everything they own must be worth 1 million cause so and so sold such and such horse for that and theirs isn’t as pretty as mine! Let’s say customer “A” wants to sell their horse. They can’t…so call me for help. They want 10K to them. The horse is iffy at that price, and definately won’t support my 15% commission on top, and realistically, not the buyer’s trainers commission/finders fee either.Now where do we go from here? Do I find a buyer for them at their price and not make money? This is MY living after all. Or does the owner take less for their horse so it can get sold? I’m sure a lot of people think the owner is the only one who should profit in this instance. Pretty interesting question huh?!
Now what happens if I find a horse in someone’s back yard for 3K. It is adorable and easily worth 10K to one of my customers. Do I tell it’s owners that they aren’t asking enough money for their horse or do I buy it, re-sell it to my customer and make the profit?! What exactly is the ethical thing to do? I think ya’ll can see how this business is very complex. That said… the buyer should be aware, as should the seller. Try to make informed decisions and find someone trustworthy to help you. We ARE out there and you can get a mess of trouble on your own too! Not every seller will tell you the truth about their horse either.
NT should refer TOPB to Owner to iron out this discrepancy. NT is not in the loop on this particular sale; she knows it and she haS agreed to it when the owner switched trainers. So if she puts herself in the middle of this transaction, she is doing it for free.
I agree that NT is available to take backup offers on this horse (how nice that this horse is so easily salable and that any commission earned will be earned without too much effort!)
But it is NT’s own “fault” if she feels that she is owed something for doing work on the deal that came to her already set up. She needs to get out of the middle of it and let the owner [and FT] re-work it. It is none of her business and making it her business will not earn her a comission.
Sorry, barnie, I should’ve known you were joking. I apologize.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
Now what happens if I find a horse in someone’s back yard for 3K. It is adorable and easily worth 10K to one of my customers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was the part of your msg. that made me think you were looking for a specific customer.
I read these posts with more than a bit of cynicism…I, for one, have to disagree that’s it’s just a “few” trainers who are gouging people on commissions. On the contrary, I think, as someone said, it has become the norm for a trainer to ask a customer: “how much do you want to get out of him (the horse for sale)”, and figure anything on top of that is gravy to the trainer.
Rather than focusing on licensure, etc., for trainers (I don’t think you can legislate ethics), I think it would be far more productive and easier to police if all sale contracts were required to be in writing and the commissions stated (as in real estate). I know of a very savvy pony mom who, when buying a horse for her child, REQUIRED the seller to sign off on what purchase price was going in her pocket. Selling trainers and all in the food chain were none too pleased.
We pay 10% commission for horses under saddle and 5% for youngsters. It’s published - if someone wants a bigger commission they can take their buyer elsewhere. But if we have the horse they want - that’s it. We market out own horses BTW. If I had someone actually marketing the horse I could understand a higher commission, but I would have it in writing and also a detail of what they will provide in advertising, showing the horse, etc.
With the internet we can get a lot more marketing done on our own and our clients are really our best advertising. But I can’t get over the trainers who have had NOTHING to do with the transaction and show up at the last minute and say they want a commission …hah! Fat chance. For what - existing?
A woman up the road had a fabulous $40,000 pony that she was selling and used an agent who said she had a buyer and identified him. Months later she saw the man and asked him why he didn’t buy the pony - he told her he couldn’t spend $80,000!! Nice agent!
