An owner's bill of rights: Letter in this weeks COTH

[barnie]

Varsity Team: Welcome! You certainly have created an interesting discussion…and an important one too!

There are w/out doubt many crooks in our business, why should we be any different than other walks of life!!And NO ONE should ever be cheated in business, or life for that matter. However, I do think that a lot of people feel any $ a pro makes on a horse deal is unfair. I think your book really needs to explain that people need to be more involved with the buying/selling of their horses if they don’t want to pay unfair fees.So many people don’t want to have to deal w/the details, they just want a check…it kind of leaves you open to be taken advantage of(not that anyone deserves that!)

And from the other side, pros come across some disreputable customers also. I’ve been cheated out of money I earned and well deserved on more than one occasion. It takes months of looking to find someone a horse, all costs out of pocket(LD calls, travel expenses, lost lesson time etc.)to have said customer go to the owner directly to purchase the horse and cut out my commission. You would be surprised what people can justify (or maybe you wouldn’t!!) It never ceases to amaze me how people view my experience, contacts, and knowledge as an unfair added expense. Because horses are my living and most peoples’ leisure, there are many times when my viewpoints will be at odds w/ John Q. Public.(And horses are absolutely not the only unregulated business) I think it is why I find Dr.s and attorneys generally unwilling to give out so much free advice anymore.My seemingly innane question is something they make a living answering.

I know this is a little rambling, but I honestly think pros get a bad shake too often on this board. People need to educate themselves to be better consumers.

[Flash44]

Look through any of the major h/j publications and you will see the most of the “serious” show horses don’t have prices listed. Are we just supposed to guess? Or is it because the price depends on what the buyer can spend v. what the seller wants, with any difference lining someone’s pockets?

[valentine1]

Barnie:

I have spent my entire lifetime with horses, and I have to say that the “professionals” in the horse business are the most crooked people I have ever met.

They make the Enron executives look like children in kindergarten.

I think that the letter was marvelous and long overdue.

[Janet]

WHERE???
The letters page only goes through July!!!

[Beans]

Hundreds of books on buying horses?

Some people leave a trainer or barn becuase they find a situation that is preferable to them - not because they haven’t paid their bill or because they have a spoiled brat kid. Sadly I’ve seen lots of really nice people who’s children became interested in riding and were good at it who’ve been taken to the cleaners by “professional trainers”. Some of them …even big names…can smell money and have no ethical problems just “milking the cow dry”.

If I board a horse and have it in training and later someone asks me about the place or the training - I’m going to tell them the truth.

A word of caution to people about using agents - keep them outside the transaction. Have a contract directly with the current OWNER - so that title to the horse transfers directly and you can have a clause in the purchase agreement that holds you harmless against any claims against the horse by them or any third party. If this trainer or agent decides the seller owes them money - you could be dragged into a legal battle. If you are paying a fee to someone state it in the contract and how it will be paid and that no one else acted on your behalf. If there was no agent/trainer represeting you - state that and that any fees due to the seller’s agent/trainer are their responsibility.

WE had a gal present a mare at an inspection that she had bought out of state from and “agent”, the owner was in a third state. She paid some money for this horse that was represented to be a HAN/TB - well long story short when she went to verify the horse’s pedigree the sire side checked out but the dam side DID NOT. The owner said she didn’t know what the agent represented and WORSE the buyer wrote the check to the Agent NOT the owner.

Horses are an investment - would you buy a car and have the title transferred this way? I think not.

Regarding trainers - get the program in writing - if they won’t do that …move on - especially when it relates to fees, charges and care of the horse.

We all know there a some owners out there that skip on paying bills (doesn’t take long for that to get around) and as far as the owners with “impossible” children…well I’ve seen many trainers who know this is the situation but willingly take the client for the dough. There eyes are wide open when they welcome them into their barn.

[AM1]

I, too, enjoyed that letter and have been waiting for someone to bring it up. However, I don’t think this was the recognition Denny Emerson had in mind in the column to which she replied.

[GO-dog-GO]

Riddle me this…Someone find out about a horse for sale from a ‘third party’. They contact the owner directly first. Some time later they happen to talk with the person that’s been “training” the same horse for a month. They have a 10 minute conversation on the phone about said horse, all very casual talk about what the horse is like.

The “trainer” now demands $1000 comission from the owner for helping sell the horse.

Trainer should get paid. Yes…No…
Trainer should be shot. Yes…No…

"The cowards won’t start and the weak will die along the trail."
– Kit Carson

Lord please save me from those trying to save me!

[AW]

I hate to be a voice of dissent (sp?), but this business is a 2-way street. There are plenty of good, honest trainers/barn owners/barn mangagers out there, who bust their you-know-whats to do a good job and protect their clients and their horses and keep them all safe and happy. In return they get paid late, if at all. They have to figure out what to do with the horses whose bills haven’t been paid in months but for whatever reason can’t be sold for back board. They have supposedly adult customers sneak out in the middle of the night. They have customers leave and them tell hysterical lies about the barn, the trainer, the other customers, the barn cats, whatever. They have shoers calling them because the customers don’t pay their shoeing bills. They have customers who don’t want to be the parent try to get them to lie to their children about why some horse won’t do, instead of saying no themselves.

And yes, I have been on the customer side. I have had the trainer use my horse as a lesson horse without permission. I have had my horse medicated without my knowledge. I have had my horse ridden in all sorts of gadgets, again without permission. I have been screamed at across a crowded schooling area. I have had my horse stuck in his stall for days because someone forgot to turn him out. I have had my horse standing in manure because someone forgot to bed his stall for 3 days. I have been on the back burner because someone else spent more money at the shows.

But I haven’t had a horse sold for more $$ than I knew about, because I was always there to talk to the buyers. And I’ve never had a client buy a horse for an inflated price, because I make them talk to the seller directly. Maybe I was born to be mistrustful, but to me that’s just common sense.

Yes, I thought it was a great letter, and maybe it will inspire people to take more control of their situations. But they shouldn’t have given it away in the first place.

[GO-dog-GO]

“Oh My, the sky must be falling cause I agree w/ Go-dog-go as well!!”

News flash…hell just froze over…

"The cowards won’t start and the weak will die along the trail."
– Kit Carson

Lord please save me from those trying to save me!

[Applesauce]

Hang on folks. I’m going to type the sucker out and post it.

“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H

[Beans]

and it really isn’t an issue of who is “nice” or not. When we sell a horse we don’t send money to people who have told people about the horse without a resulting sale - just because we like them!!!

[armandh]

as to the above issue if the agency agreement is in writing and its existance disclosed “I am the agent for the seller” I see this as an ok deal,
it is where a person is representing both the buyer and seller that there is a conflict.

it is going to get worse b4 it gets better

the revenue from shows lessons etc is off as disposable income shrinks, so expect more corners to be cut, you are going to need to rebouble your efforts to be sure [you and] your horses are getting what you paid for. If [you] they are not, for the interum bring your own feed/shavings/hay and keep looking for a better place

[or in this thread get everything in writing]

[This message was edited by armandh on Sep. 10, 2002 at 05:05 PM.]

[Beans]

they get in the business due to their children and even “well known” trainers take these people for a ride. And please don’t be naive enough to think that a Trainer who’s been “caught” at being unethical will thank the owner and wish them well. Many to everything they can to black ball these people. I’ve heard many people say that they are almost afraid to do this for fear it will prevent their kids from getting another trainer or WORSE …some of the trainers are also judges or know them well.

I’ve had people tell me they were TOLD by the trainer that a 20% commission is STANDARD! Is that set by the Feds or what? They also tell them it’s o.k. for them to get a commission from both sides…in some states it’s not legal and in some states it’s not legal to say up front this is happening. How many trainers do say this?

And if anyone thinks the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t do well by the show circuit - you haven’t seen the “orders” that large training facilities put in before they depart the Northeast for Florida every year!!!

Mrs. Kagen doesn’t strike me as a person that isn’t intelligent - she perhaps thought (erroneously) that people who work with or around horses are all really ethical, caring and honest people. WRONG! I think the Insurance scandal of a few years should have shown all of us that many of them could care less if the horse was alive or dead or how it died! A sad reality - but reality just the same.

[Kryswyn]

Thank you for writing a letter that needed to be read by many so called professionals.

As to your writing a book, on one hand, I say 'go for it" because I write also. On the other hand, elsewhere in this thread I mentioned that there are hundreds of books (over the decades) on how to buy a horse and thousands (over the centuries!) have chapters on how to do it. Some one questioned/derided me and accused me of exaggerating. I submit that your desire to write a book on the subject is proof!

HOWEVER the main point of my earlier reply is that you can put the information out there, but you can’t make the people who need this info the most THINK before buying a horse. They want what they want when they want it and if they have more money than sense they want to spend as much of it as possible. So if you can get an advance (Breakthrough Books?) by all means write it. But I wouldn’t count on it changing the world of horse trading. It truly is the 2nd oldest profession.

~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”

[Sleepy]

I am not questioning your right to make a living Barnie. There is a big difference in buying a horse because you have an eye for what will sell and turning it around quickly and taking a client to see a horse that is priced less than what you would like said client to spend and jacking the price up. The case you mentioned is borderline. If you actually buy the horse and then sell it, fine. If the horse doesn’t change hands until your client writes the check - to you - then yeah, I have a problem with a 333% commission.

PS - I already outlined what I thought the scenario should be. Horse gets sold for x amount, whatever trainer can get for it. Buyer writes check to me the seller. I write trainer a check for 10% of x dollars.

[system]

NT does not feel owed anything regarding the PB situation as it was a previous negotiation. The owner is however, putting NT into the equation by having NT re-negotiate a set of terms that FT had set up (much to her dismay). There seem to be many discrepancies with what the owner was told by FT, and what NT has been told by TOPB. Kind of what this thread is all about. NT told owner everything that has been discussed, including the more recent propositions AND price quoted. NT feels it isn’t her place to yank around other people’s money.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>how nice that this horse is so easily salable and that any commission earned will be earned without too much effort!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aint THAT the truth!!!

Walking on water is my specialty, making wine out of it is an art.

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
What I was saying about the horse for 3K, was what is my responsibility as you see it to the current owner? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, I forgot to answer the question. If the owner is asking 3K and is happy with that, buy it for 3. Why should you tell them any different? No, you have no obligation to tell them that.

If the owner is also your client and asks you what you think is a good price to set and you really think 10, then say 10. If this second case, the seller is your client and so in effect has hired you to help them do this right - it would be unethical of you to not do your best for them. If you answer an ad or find a horse for 3 from someone else, of course buy it for the asking price.

As a professional the obligation is to your clients. As someone said, you are in a service industry. You have knowledge your clients are paying you for - find me a horse, sell my horse, whatever. They are relying on you, paying you for a service. To use one’s knowledge to do the best for your clients is what one does. To use one’s superior knowledge to take more money out of a client’s pocket by hiding/withholding information from them would not be ethical.

[armandh]

when buying or selling insist on a closing statement showing all of the disbursments and to whom and why…and if the broker/trainer doesn’t want to, say “thanks but I’ll pass”.

[Applesauce]

No problem posting the letter.

I just love this. Like Weatherford said, what a wonderful discussion. So glad we have this board!!!

“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H

[Varsity_team]

Most owners refuse to speak up for a myriad of reasons.
1.The owner has convinced this poor person they are actually their friend and have their best interests at heart.
2.There will be retaliation, not only from their trainer but from all the other trainers in their area, because, guess what, they’re all in it together,they’re unionized.
3.For Moms, fear that their little girl who has grown quite attached to this trainer will be ostracized.
Man, I’m starting to sound like Oliver Stone.