No.It’s more like, “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.”
Glad you’re not feeling picked on. 
This has been a really good discussion on all fronts. I understand much of the points you are trying to make, probably because I’ve been around horses for-bloody-ever. 
Re this, though:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
I have also been the seller…not just the pro. If I want 10K for my horse and I can’t get it done by myself, I turn to someone with better/more contacts than I have. If they can sell my horse and get me the 10K that I COULDN’T get by myself, I say have at it! What they make on top of what I said I wanted is their business and their ultimate responsibility. I think it is greedy of the owner (even if it is me) to think they deserve more money just because someone else can sell it for more. If I could have sold it myself, I would have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have no doubt that I am in the minority on this but … as a seller, my response to the agent would be, “Fine, then buy the horse from me, re-sell it for what you think you can get, and then everybody’s happy.” It simply would never occur to me to ask an agent who thinks he/she could get more for a horse to GIVE me more (frankly, it would more likely make me think that something was really wrong with my trainer’s judgment if the horse was that undervalued, as well as her sales skills). And even if it did, I’d spent the rest of my days feeling guilty over the poor schmo who had to pay thousands more than he or she needed to.
It also brings me back to an earlier point. How does an agent reconcile the “other end”? That’s something I’ve always wondered about. I.e. if I send my 10k horse to an agent and later learn that someone spent 17k for it, how can I believe that when I go looking to buy, said agent will not show me 10k horses at a 17k price tag? I’m pretty much going to assume that he or she is, and I am not going to be very happy about it.
As for why people get defensive about all of it, while emotion may indeed play a part, I think it’s emotions of another kind. No one likes to feel that they’ve been “taken” because it makes them feel like a fool. Money is always a hot-button issue, no matter how much one has to spend. Agents may believe that this is just how business is done; buyers and sellers see the whole deal-making process as some kind of back-room, shady goings-on where the price of the horse increases with no apparent increase in its inherent value, particularly with so many hands out.
I have no complaint with agents, trainers, show managers (gasp! ) and any and everyone else making a living. And people who are good at it should be rewarded. But at a reasonable, up-front, agreed-upon rate of return, just as it should be in the rest of life.
Proud member of the “Huh. I thought I’d fixed that” phase of baby green hunter ownership.
Page 179, the VERY last page.
“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H
OOOOHHH Kryswyn…someone that understands me?!
What I still see people hanging up on is “value” which I said earlier is SOOOOOOO subjective.Sometimes the "value of the horse changes depending on whose barn it is in…or if it’s in a barn at all! We always laugh and say pulling mane and trimming them adds 5K on immediately. Seriously though, recognizing “value” is an accepted long standing marketing tool.Think of the stock market( or not 
)…people make big money buying under-valued stock and selling it later for a huge profit. Should they then go back to the company and say, “let me give you some money back because that stock of yours I bought was really worth more than I paid for it.” Doubt it!!!
I know the real hot button is that people don’t want to feel stupid or that they were taken advantage of, but horses are a commodity just like anything else. If you have one for sale, someone meets YOUR price I honestly feel that you are out of it at that point…I mean in the reverse, can the buyer come back to you and say in comparing your horse to others at the shows, it is now obvious that yours was over valued, and they want a rebate?( leaving all crooked dealing,lie telling, law breaking scenerios out…just looking at the main issues!)
I don’t think I’ll ever convince most of you dissenters that making money buying and selling horses(as an agent or trainer) is not NECESSARILY a crooked, unfair venture.What I will say, and then I’ll probably leave it alone, is when you are selling/buying horses make clear from the get go what your deal is…what you want, what you expect from all involved, what $ you have to spend,what paper work you need to have in return.Then you will have less of a chance of being disappointed later.And if you want to shop/sell solo then you won’t have anyone to blame but yourself if something doesn’t work out to your satisfaction. Good Luck all…it’s a jungle out there!!! 
I tried!!…I can’t get the *&^%$# letter small enough. Oh well.
I’ve observed several trainers doing some of the unethical practices discussed on this thread, and it’s reprehensible. It isn’t all trainers, or even a majority.
One way to prevent it is to take responsibility for yourself. If your new to the business, educate yourself. Always stay involved in the process. Ask questions. And if you think something is going on, discuss it the trainer and if it isn’t resolve, find another professional.
When the deal does go down. Deal directly with buyer/seller. Wire (Or have wired) money to the appropriate buyer/seller, pay your commissions directly. DO NOT pay the money to the intermediary for them to distribute – you don’t know what went where.
Reputable trainers/agents have no problem with this procedure. Slightly shady ones try to discourage it, and then give in (and give up any hope of pulling a fast one). Dishonest ones will tell you to pack sand – at least then you know where you stand.
Yes, some professionals do not have your best interests at heart. They need to be prosecuted when they cross that line. But as in most things, you need to take responsibility for what happens – how you deal with the process can prevent a lot of these problems.
horse trader comes to mind as a field where obscuring flaws and pointing out strengths is a profitable way of doing buisness. we have all been in barns where we paid tuition in the school of equestrian hard knocks. you only need to see how many barns go broke to see why shady dealing and low service are tempting b4 the fall. some are more skillfull and have been doing it for years by bringing in new fools to replace those who have the “I woke up” [and left] degree.
I just wanted to add my applause to the author of this letter-it is soooo long overdue and hopefully will not be the last one we see like it.
It is about time owners started demanding that horse trainers conduct themselves with some touch of ethics.
These folks want to consider themselves professionals? Then they should be bound by a code of ethics, just as other professionals are.
If they want that title-then start earning it.
The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain’t right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it
People do really seem to lack some common sense when it comes to buying horses that they otherwise wouldn’t do on other purchases.
People need to educate themselves before buying a horse. Buy some good books on care, and READ them. Research costs, call around about trainers, get quotes before you ship old Red down to Florida for the winter, pay a vet for a full set of xrays when you buy Bucky… if somebody won’t let you do that… something is up. Would you buy a used car that someone wouldn’t allow a mechanic to check?
It takes 2 people to get ripped off… (that said, it stinks that people do this sort of thing!)
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
I would tell her/him that in this whole replacement she can have % of the profit only.
if any
No, nobody ever wants to say WHO is doing this stuff, do they?
But I understand - if she didn’t directly ask you for a commission, a call to remind you that she posted the picture is legit, so I wouldn’t mention her name at this point either. After all, someone could say to you, “I saw your horse on the website and I’d like to see him” and so she’s just reminding you. Let us know if she does ask for a cut, though.
Since I’m in the same area I was just wondering if it was the same person I knew.
Bumping up to show Varsity Team (the author!) how it’s done!
She’s just de-lurked on the “new members introduction” thread!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erin:
The website is NOT me! I have my hands full just managing you people.
QUOTE]
ROFL!
Wondrland,
It’s been my contention for years that a good spirited, honest, professional horse trainer would blow away the competition.You’d have people flocking to you.What a fresh of breath air!!!
Oh, c’mon, barnie, who the **** said you were a crook? and who bashed all professionals? I for one gave an example of ONE SPECIFIC crooked trainer and then told of a trustworthy one with whom I do business.
What’s complicated about this? If the owner’s price floor is 10K, the buyer either pays the price + the commission due or the owner realizes the horse won’t sell at that price through a trainer charging commission and finds his price on his own or else he lowers the price.
No complications about the 3K horse either. If you are searching for a horse for a specific customer and the seller is only asking 3K, then you tell your customer “I found a horse for 3K.”
Amazing that that’s an ethical dilemma! You’re hired to find a horse, you find a horse. What’s the problem here? Don’t you see how treasured you would be to your customer?!
Now, if that specific customer for whom you are searching declines this horse, yes, by all means, you buy it for 3K, take it home and sell it for whatever you wish. That’s fair. Say I’m your customer and I pass on the 3K horse & you buy it. 2 months later I’m looking at it in your barn & decide it’s a pretty cool horse. If you tell me the price is $10K, sorry, Anne, you missed your chance to buy it at 3, I will agree with you - I missed my chance, you took a chance, you bought the horse at it’s asking price and deserve to profit. But if I hire you to find me a horse and you find a good one at a cheap price and decide to TRIPLE it’s price, that’s not fair.
Varsity (and Kryswyn) - the books I’ve seen have good information about evaluating horses, but nothing about the people end of it. All the ways a buyer can get screwed…
So the book I would be interested in would be the one entitled “Caveat Emptor,” and it would include lots of disaster stories about fraud and unethical acts of commission and omission.
Drugs, money, misrepresentation - the kind of book that would be a fascinating read even if I wasn’t thinking of buying a horse.
An updated version of Ben Green’s Horsetradin’ would do nicely - in which he tells of learning to apply dapples to aged white mules using an egg in ink, and how to administer arsenic to addicted draft horses…
Again misunderstood! I must express myself more clearly!!
What I meant about the 3K horse was that to a knowledgeable horseperson(one of my customers
)the horse would obviously be worth more than what it’s current owners wanted.It could be openly and fairly marketed as worth 10K. So should I tell the owner that or not?What if you were the owner?
Now Lisa: you don’t know me, why would you assume I would be unfair to my customers? I would not add a commission on top of my own selling price…whatis that about 
And in general why would I want my customers to pay as much as they could for a horse? I want them to find the BEST horse for the money they have to spend. If they don’t spend their limit…then they have more to spend w/me in lessons and showing…duh! A commission is a one shot deal. Lessons happen every week…thank God
But I still feel a majority of ya’ll are very hostile toward “pros”. There may be some that are rich, but mostly we do it because we love horses and the life style that goes w/them.I know at the end of one of the 95 degree days we’ve been having, I wonder why I do this.
“What the market will bear” is an interesting concept. It is unfortunate that many professionals consider it a) normal, b) righteous and c) ethical to inflate prices, charge higher than legitimately earned commissions on the selling, buying and any sale “within the barn” as standard policy.
They do it because they can. They do it because the people they “represent” agree to pay it.
If you think losses of 2-5K in commissions or finding out you overpaid 2-5K for your new horse is a big deal, how do you feel about the willing transfer of 10-20K for commission of some of the bigtime “AAA” customers who willingly transfer these kinds of funds to their (did I say greedy?) trainers without argument?
The trainers charge it because they can get it. They do it because no one or no agency says they can not and even if there was such a law, you can bet these crafty professionals would find the loophole faster than a pony to oats.
It needs to be stopped. As mentioned earlier, it will probably never change in our lifetimes and some novel ways to prevent it are: to start your own barn of private owners only, sell horses only amongst yourselves, charge no commissions, or get out of the horse business entirely. Sound hokey? Ok, how about actively refusing?
Start getting involved. Start putting your collective feet down. Start saying, “NO…we are not going to be screwed over anymore.”
I feel that until the bigtime professionals who are guilty of such practices start changing their ways due to CUSTOMER DEMAND, the practice will continue exponentially and continue among the smaller pros as well.
I for one, am more than willing to pay a trainer a commission of 10% for actual help in selling my horse. Also I am willing to pay 10% to my trainer for helping me find a horse. If my horse is marketed, actively shown for sale, and sold within my barn with the active help of my trainer, I do not have an issue paying a small barn commission. But my buck stops there.
It nauseates me to hear time and time again how much money is “unethically removed” from the customers from inexperienced to the filthy rich. Why? Because the the customers keep agreeing to do so.
Let me assure you that I know that for every 100 scoundrels, there are a few honest professionals. You know the ones who treat other human beings with respect, care and concern…the ones who sleep at night sans sales guilt.
I applaud the letter, I hope owners both local and on the “big scene” finally put their feet down and the next time they open their wallets to pay a for a horse and to pay a commission, take one brief moment to ask, “I made sure from the seller the exact price and my representative has fully earned his percentage, right?”
Because if not, you can be pretty sure that what you are about to dole out in price and commission is probably a big amount more than you need to. It’s your money.
START SAYING NO.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
… This is really what I was getting at with my 3K horse scenerio.Unless someone has asked me to evaluate said horse for price, if I know the horse is worth 10K, the seller wants 3K, why can’t I represent it as a 10K horse if it is? 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you trust your judgement enough to shell out the 3K, then house, market, train,… whatever, then whatever profit that you make should be fine.
If, on the other hand, you tell a potential buyer that the horse (still owned by another) is $10K, have that buyer write you a check for $10k, and then give the seller a check for $3k - that (to my way of thinking) is not kosher.
You are just the type of professional I would hope to have access to when looking for a horse.I absolutely believe that there are wonderful, honest and knowledegeable trainers out there who wish to use their skills for the good of the sport as well as make a profit. The relationship can be built on a win win premise.
I want you to be successful as a trainer and I’m willing to pay you for your services as long as they are reasonable.Example, I’m happy to pay you a 10% commission on a horse that you find for me.
I am not happy to pay you a 10% commission on a horse a friend sold me and I bought from her because she had fallen on hard times. I’m am also not willing to acccept your rejection of this horse in your barn because you did not buy it for me. You should make a nice little sum training it, caring for it and taking it to horse shows as well as the commission you’ll make when you sell it.
It’s the greed Barnie, the absolute no holds barred greed that concerns me.
It’s not only trainers but show managers as well.
At one of the biggest AA shows in the Midwest this summer, stalls were priced out of the ballpark, entries were absurd. Enough people in this area were outraged enough to skip the show and head elsewhere.It’s that kin of grassroots effort I’m talking about and as a trainer who talks the talk you should also be willing to walk the walk, not only with your customers but other trainers as well. 
