How about writing a little column for the COTH? 
(and apologies if these are the same as other peoples, I don’t have time to read the whole thread now, but these points jumped out at me. 
)
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 9) When I leave your barn for whatever reason, do not make it your mission in life to make our life miserable at the next horse show we both attend. This kind of juvenile behavior is unbeccoming of an adult. Maybe your time would be better spent reflecting on why you lost a good customer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OH PUH-LEASE! I have NEVER met ANYONE who ever left a barn who didn’t (in private if not in public) absolutely trash the barn they left with anything from outright lies (to cover their mistakes (read ‘non-payment’) to mean gossip to damning with faint praise (“oh they were good enough I guess… but Darling needs a better than that now…”)
Let’s face it. We leave barns for a reason. Unless it’s move mandated by relocation we always find something we didn’t like about the place we left and that’s ALWAYS what comes up in conversation. It’s human nature. So I say, if the trainers should be professional enough to keep their mouths shut, then the boarders/students should be POLITE enough to keep their thoughts to themselves. Dissing someone else never makes you look good.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now just where can a potential horse buyer go to research how to buy a horse? Does Consumer Reports test horses? Is there a Kelly blue book for horses? I don’t think just talking to someone about how it is done is very informative or useful and it certainly isn’t research.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are literally hundreds of books that describe how to buy a horse and thousands more that have chapters on it. But rare is the first time (or 2nd or 5th) time owner who will take the time to read a book. Especially, if they got skunked the first time! It’s MUCH easier to say, “Well I trusted the trainer… wahhhhh” then it is to pick up a book and educate yourself! Or admit you contributed to your own hosing by being ignorant! After all, who automatically trusts the used car salesman?
AnneFS said: <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Say I’m your customer and I pass on the 3K horse & you buy it. 2 months later I’m looking at it in your barn & decide it’s a pretty cool horse. If you tell me the price is $10K, sorry, Anne, you missed your chance to buy it at 3, I will agree with you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, AnneFS, that’s you, god bless you! MOST people in my experience would shout to the rooftops that this trainer was trying to hose them because originally it had been a $3k horse! Most buyers are not educated enought to see the value of those 2 months or to give a professional credit for having the eye to take that 3k horse and train it up, clean it up and market it. Buyers who miss out on the bargains are (IME) NOT generous with praise for the person who snapped it up!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But if I hire you to find me a horse and you find a good one at a cheap price and decide to TRIPLE it’s price, that’s not fair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, most people who are prepared to spend 10K cannot/will not look at a 3K horse because OBVIOUSLY it’s not as good as a 10K horse. Well, what a seller thinks a 3K horse is, may VERY WELL BE an undervalued 10K horse, just like the person who finds something in the attic, puts it in the yard sale at 10 bucks and then wails when they see their grannys’ table in the newspaper as a recently discovered Chippendale piece going for $45K. They COULD have investigated it, had it appraised. But it was easier to just sell it for $10 bucks and achieve their desire - getting it out of the house!! Same thing with cheap horses alot of the time - just get it out of the barn!
And finally (whew!)
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since when is it ethical to charge people for knowledge you have gained thru experience? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Since like… EVER! Doctors, lawyers, plumbers, electricians, vets… the list is endless. People who can’t are people like retailers who refer people to other stores (like me yesterday, “You’ll find that at a hardware store” or “Call the Tackeria - best bet for anything polo”)
~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”
[This message was edited by Kryswyn on Sep. 06, 2002 at 08:37 AM.]
[This message was edited by Kryswyn on Sep. 06, 2002 at 08:38 AM.]
[This message was edited by Kryswyn on Sep. 06, 2002 at 08:50 AM.]
I just finished reading it and I’m ready to join the owner’s revolution.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
What I will say, and then I’ll probably leave it alone, is when you are selling/buying horses make clear from the get go what your deal is…what you want, what you expect from all involved, what $ you have to spend,what paper work you need to have in return.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that is all all of us are asking for. Someone to be upfront about the whole thing. If I take my horse to you and say I want $10K, you can sell it for whatever. Fine, all I expect is $10K. However if you tell me that you can only get me $8K for the horse, and I find out your marketing it for $15K, that’s wrong. When I’m buying a horse, I don’t want it to be drugged up/medicated UNLESS that is disclosed. Don’t tell me after the check has cleared that the horse needs maintenance bute.
That’s all I want out of a deal, everything upfront and clear. Agreed to by all parties, seller, agent(s) and buyer. Is that so wrong? 
****************************
“I love deadlines.” “I love the swooooshing sound they make as they fly by!” -Douglas Adams
I especially liked “helpful hint #7.”
Though I am more of a pleasure rider type (can only afford the occasional lesson, sorry) I have seen situations such as those she very eloquently describes and all I could think of at the time was, “Why doesn’t someone DO something about this?”
It’s about time someone pointed out that the emperor indeed has no clothes. Let’s just see if the masses will listen.
“I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship.”
-Louisa May Alcott
GO-Dog-GO,
The answer to your question is, that is between the seller and the “trainer.” If they had a prior agreement for the commission, then yes. If it was never discussed, no. If it was not discussed, owners sometimes opt to pay a fee to the “trainer”, often less than the full 10% – but without a prior arrangement to act as agent in the sale, they don’t have to. The buyer has no obligation to the “Trainer”, unless the requested that person act as their agent and negotiated a fee for the service.
As to whether they should be shot, it depends on how obnoxious they’re being 
Any chance of seeing the letter on this board? I hate to drive to the nearest seller of COTH as it would be over an hour round trip for me Not trying to be cheapskate or anything…
June
in many cases buried in the fine print is a comission on any horse sold from the barn.
and if you are using the facilities to show the horse to prospective buyers some is due. is it an acceptable amount? for that amount would it be worth your time to move the horse first.
The person selling the horse pays ONE commission to their trainer. The person buying the horse pays the owner of the horse plus a finder’s fee to his/her trainer. There should be no other fingers in the pie. No other trainers, no barn owners. If the barn owner feels they get a slice, it comes out of the trainers portion.
Any buyer who does anything else is either stupid or crazy. Or possibly just an ignorant newbie. And yes, I would have a contract up front with the trainer indicating this.
Now having said that, I personally only buy horses from sales. At least usually. I have found some interesting ex-racers but so far I am resisting.
The tale of unsuitable horse is so very prevalent - both for children and adults. I’ve seen it enough to suspect collusion is very frequently at the heart. Here’s my theory: you have $x to buy a horse and you and trainer agree on one. You could have gotten it for something less (let’s not talk about a huge difference) but anyway, you end up with a nice horse you like and you (or your child) has a pleasant experience with this animal. BE HAPPY!
Here’s the rub: I cannot tell you the number of times this isn’t how this works out. Trainer arranges sale of unsuitable, dangerous, or injured horse to inexperienced rider. Why? Guess what - not the commission. The answer: to build relationships and do favors, with the seller or something similar. Yes - to the poster who expressed the game as being one involving short-term clients who are mostly out of the game in 5 years. Honestly, it does seem like you can be successful working with children and selling them horses which are simple and safe to ride. The disillusion associated with the other scenario is horrible to watch.
Many trainers don’t play this game. But there are plenty who do. Parents and others - be careful - watch out for the “cult of the trainer”. It’s so unfortunate. Don’t rush into these purchases and be very observant about what is being bought by who.
jrjumpermom,
OK…where is the Quentin Riding Club? From other posts, it sounds like a fun time was had by all there recently!
June
Artienallie,
Thanks for the help and where are you in Virginia?
Actually, Beans, Ms Kagen strikes me as extremely intelligent. That was a very well written letter. And she’s no newbie either, apparently. But before we had this avenue of communication (thank you, COTH) people weren’t talking to each other. So it was a dirty, little secret. Plus people were scared of reprisals.
But in the 20 years I rode with my old trainer, he NEVER did that to me. And I bought 3 horses during that time period. And came to him originally with another. He knew I went to sales and bought horses. And he knew that I probably had a better eye for a green prospect than he did. I was never told to get rid of a horse or that I owed a commission on a horse I found.
Now, of course, since I don’t show and have no plans to, short of a lottery win, I don’t care whose toes I step on. I expect professional behavior from everyone I deal with and having no problems firing anyone who exhibits unprofessional or unethical behavior. And I WILL tell them why. After all, I am the customer.
I have sat here and read all 7 pages.I am a broker working in Canada.My clients pay a 10% commission to me only if I sell thier horse,that may include phone calls,video taping ,driving clients to appointments ,arranging transport,import papers,vetting ,hotel accomadations.I could go on for ever.Sometimes all these efforts are for not.Thats all out of my pocket.
I do not EVER take anymore $$$ from the buyer or seller than is deemed.I show my clients both cheques.My commission and thier purchase/sellers
cheque.
I take the time to find out the history of each horse good,bad and evil.
I am happy to report I have never had an unpleased client.My business is based on repeat clients with an open honest rapour.No horse is perfect,every single one I have met has a hole.The determination is wheter you can live with that particular hole.If something sounds too good to be true ,it likely is.
My suggestion to horse buyers and sellers would be this: If you are happy with the service you recieved tell others,if you are unpleased tell everyone.We don’t need spoiled apples to ruin the whole basket.
I work hard for my clients and they truley appreciate my efforts.I am not only thankful for my monetary gains but for the wonderful feeling I get seeing a great match come together.Nothing beats a smiling face coming out of the ring with a ribbion and confidence to take on the world.Horsemanship is a wonderful gift we all share.
A.MacRae
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> jrjumpermom
posted Sep. 05, 2002 11:33 AM ?
Looks like we sold our c/a jumper (she’s vetting this pm). We got a call shorty after the girl tried her from an old trainer.
About a year ago she asked if we wanted to post a pic on a sales web site. We said, sure. We gave her a pic, she scanned it and that’s it. Well, thru the grapevine she hears we have found a buyer (by ourselves… we put flyers up at a show and some people saw her and liked her…). She calls to remind us that last year she put this horse on the web ( it is not her site…and not one that costs for the listing).Now, the people have never heard of trainer, came with flyer in hand at the show. We set up time to try horse etc.
Do YOU think we owe this trainer anything? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The solution is to thank the person/trainer profusely for their thoughtfulness in posting that photo ‘so long ago’ and saying ’ it is such a shame that the horse didn’t sell through that site’.
Ask them for the link to the site so you can post sold on the horse or if they would ‘be so kind’ as to list horse as sold next time posting there. 
A little bit of naivity can go a long way. Make sure you mention how hard it was doing up posters and placing them all over the countryside … and maybe gush a little about what a lovely home the horse is going to have with this lady who found one of ‘our posters’ at the horse show!!!
A wise law school professor once told me: When faced with an “ethical dilemma”… one that is maybe technically in the “grey” area between right and wrong, ask yourself this one simple question:
If what I did gets plastered all over the front page of the Washington Post, would I be embarrased?
The whole commission thing, for me, boils down to this simple issue. If you are a trainer, agent, whatever… I don’t care WHAT you charge… 10%, 20%, $5,000 over purchase price, WHATEVER. But you’d BETTER FULLY DISCLOSE IT UP FRONT! Then I can decide if I want to pay that amount.
And, as a trainer, agent, etc., if you DON’T fully disclose it? Chances are you KNOW you’re doing something unethical. You want to charge 10K for the horse your found for 3K? Fine. Tell the new purchaser. If you really believe that your experience, advice, etc. is worth the 7K profit you’re making, then look the buyer in the eye and tell her. If you can’t do it, you’re probably not worth it.
As a lawyer, people pay for my time, my advice, etc. etc. Whenever I have to ask myself “should I bill the client for X?” The test I always ask is: If the client complains about a charge, can I look him in the eye and say, sorry, you need to pay that,… and here’s why I earned it. If the answer is yes, then I bill it. If not, I won’t.
Half of Riding is 30% mental … no wonder there are so many bad riders
Lisa,
I have to disagree with you. Professionals make a living looking for horses to turn-over for a profit. They take significant risks when they buy a prospect – even if it is for quick re-sale. They make a big profit on one, but lose their shirts on another. It is not unreasonable for them to look for significant profit on a prospect as long as they don’t misrepresent the horse. It is no different than most other business enterprises.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunterested:They do it because they can. They do it because the people they “represent” agree to pay it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’ve never sold a horse for $1 million but I assume that if you were to pi$$ off one or two BNTs there is a fairly good chance of your horse NEVER being sold, no matter how nice, so I would assume that plays a role in what people are willing to pay
Excellent letter. I think until people start demanding what works for them, i.e. a children’s horse that a child can actually ride without constant professional supervision etc. etc. trainers will still be able to get away with this kind of stuff.
But, two things jumped out at me (and sorry in advance for the length of this):
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
Let’s say customer “A” wants to sell their horse. They can’t…so call me for help. They want 10K to them. The horse is iffy at that price, and definately won’t support my 15% commission on top, and realistically, not the buyer’s trainers commission/finders fee either. Now where do we go from here? Do I find a buyer for them at their price and not make money? This is MY living after all. Or does the owner take less for their horse so it can get sold? I’m sure a lot of people think the owner is the only one who should profit in this instance. Pretty interesting question huh?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When we’re the seller, we’ve ALWAYS paid our trainer’s/agent’s commission OUT OF the purchase price. Perhaps we’ve done so incorrectly for the last three decades. We “build in” the commission into the asking price; frankly (and, yes, I am painting with a very broad brush here) telling anyone in this business that “I want X amount and anything over that is your gravy” is tantamount to not only leaving the barn door open, but leaving it wide open with a sign saying, “Screw me. Please.” 
If I ever discovered that someone else had increased the price of my horse to line his or her pocket, you can bet I’d yell loud and long. If my horse is priced at 10k, that’s because my trainer and I have discussed it and agreed on the price; her commission comes out of that. If I need to hire a sales agent because my own trainer can’t get the horse sold, it means we’ve overpriced the horse. It does NOT somehow magically make my 10k horse a 12k horse just to cover the agent’s cut.
How or why should it? Where is the logic in that – it’s still the same horse, right? If I couldn’t sell it for 10k, why would I honestly think it could be sold for 12k? And, frankly, if I ever had reason to return to said agent as a buyer, I’d be extremely suspicious, because I’d be wondering how much the horse really cost.
Now, as to this:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGray:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
… This is really what I was getting at with my 3K horse scenerio.Unless someone has asked me to evaluate said horse for price, if I know the horse is worth 10K, the seller wants 3K, why can’t I represent it as a 10K horse if it is? 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you trust your judgement enough to shell out the 3K, then house, market, train … whatever, then whatever profit that you make should be fine.
If, on the other hand, you tell a potential buyer that the horse (still owned by another) is $10K, have that buyer write you a check for $10k, and then give the seller a check for $3k - that (to my way of thinking) is not kosher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bingo, SGray. Absolutely, straight on BINGO. I’ve been screwed this way myself, and it was made worse by the fact that it was my own trainer who did it. As soon as I found out, I took the greatly overpriced horse out of his barn and never looked back. And yes, I’ve told many, many people.
Proud member of the “Huh. I thought I’d fixed that” phase of baby green hunter ownership.
[This message was edited by Beezer on Sep. 05, 2002 at 08:21 PM.]
You are just the type of professional I would hope to have access to when looking for a horse.I absolutely believe that there are wonderful, honest and knowledegeable trainers out there who wish to use their skills for the good of the sport as well as make a profit. The relationship can be built on a win win premise.
I want you to be successful as a trainer and I’m willing to pay you for your services as long as they are reasonable.Example, I’m happy to pay you a 10% commission on a horse that you find for me.
I am not happy to pay you a 10% commission on a horse a friend sold me and I bought from her because she had fallen on hard times. I’m am also not willing to acccept your rejection of this horse in your barn because you did not buy it for me. You should make a nice little sum training it, caring for it and taking it to horse shows as well as the commission you’ll make when you sell it.
It’s the greed Barnie, the absolute no holds barred greed that concerns me.
It’s not only trainers but show managers as well.
At one of the biggest AA shows in the Midwest this summer, stalls were priced out of the ballpark, entries were absurd. Enough people in this area were outraged enough to skip the show and head elsewhere.It’s that kin of grassroots effort I’m talking about and as a trainer who talks the talk you should also be willing to walk the walk, not only with your customers but other trainers as well.
