<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
The commission thing seems to be a real sticking point for a lot of people, [snip] Just like a house, if you want to sell your horse “by owner” great, but if you want my contacts, knowledge, input and continuing help after the sale/purchase you will have to pay me for it.
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barnie, I agree, you SHOULD be paid for your contacts, knowledge, etc. but IME the sticking point about the commission is not that we pay a commission, that is fair, you’re right that some people do resent ‘paying for a phone call’ but the lawyer analogy’s a good one, but the sticking point is that (and it’s happened to me) when you use a trainer to find a horse, SOME trainers find out the selling price and then add quite a bit onto that. That’s what ticks people off. In my case I was told about a $2500 horse and to contact the trainer. Price was $4000 and I declined. Found out later that the owner had no idea I was told 4K, her selling price was 2K, but the trainer figured, why not pocket an extra 100%? With the money passing through the trainer, neither the buyer nor the seller would’ve known what happened. It TICKED me off. This trainer lost her job over it, I’m glad to say, because the farm owner fired her when she found out about it. Like you, she didn’t want this cheating going on out of her barn so she stopped it.
So, just my 2 cents as to why people get funny when commissions come up. So many of us have been cheated or people have tried to cheat us & been caught. When I finally did find a horse, the trainer BEFORE we left to look at a horse, sat down with me and my daugher and outlined exactly what she expected to be paid for and how much. All was clear and agreed upon before we looked at the first horse.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have had no qualms about suing my realtor and my contractor when they cheated and misrepresented things to us. If enough people are willing to step forward and be loud about injustices, perhaps some of these unscrupulous folks will lose their shingles, which maybe weren’t worth the paper that they were written on…
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Very true. People perceive the horse industry as “unregulated.” Maybe there’s no code of ethics, but hey, the law applies to sales of horses, as numerous posters on this board have discovered to their benefit. Horses are considered property. If you get screwed, go after whoever did it!
And that was a great letter. Enthusiastic thumbs up! As has been mentioned in other threads, many trainers are not “squeaky clean,” no matter how nice and trustworthy they may seem.
Thank you, Applesauce! Jrjumpermom, where are you in PA? I live not far from Harrisburg. And I agree with Sleepy’s opinion.
June
A few years ago I took my hug TB gelding to a new barn, a few months later I decided to sell the horse. The trainer told me 10% commission on horse.
Well, several months go by, no one has even come out to see the horse, and I find out that he is letting everyone and their brother ride my horse because he doesnt want to train him anymore. I am paying this guy for full training every month.
I move my horse, and within a few days of moving him get a letter in the mail that I OWE this trainer the 10% commission AND owe the BARN 15% commission ON A HORSE HE DIDN’T SELL!! His reasoning was that he “lost” the opportunity to sell him, so he is entitled to the commission.
He and the barn owner never got paid.
So if you want to buy a car, new or used, there are a number of books, magazines, and websites one can use to learn about buying a car and about the specific make and model you want to purchase including dealer markups.
Now just where can a potential horse buyer go to research how to buy a horse? Does Consumer Reports test horses? Is there a Kelly blue book for horses? I don’t think just talking to someone about how it is done is very informative or useful and it certainly isn’t research.
DearApplesauce,
Thanks so much for the kind words…I’m thinking about writing a book about it all…what do you think? What do you all think…
First, Applesauce, thank you SO much for typing that out!
Next, Ms. Kagen, wherever you are, THANK YOU. She had the balls to spell out and sign her name to some very legitimate issues about the business. Amazing!
Now…as to those who say “who would be so dumb” I think there are a lot of issues here. One is that if you are new to horses or hope to learn about horses, there really is no central place for that. This BB (and many thanks for it!) is a good start, but I was “into” horses for over 6 years before I found it, and I was already a fairly educated owner. Why? Because I’m not into doing huge shows and never thought about the Chronicle as offering such a forum.
Many areas have few if any tack shops or farms listed in the phone book. And that’s still where people are likely to start looking at the horse world. The press doesn’t really do anything on the topic, most trainers don’t advertise in conventional consumer outlets, so where do people go? And if they find a place, how do they know what is and isn’t “good” or “standard” or even OK?
If the hapless newbie doesn’t have a computer or doesn’t spend a lot of time on the 'net, that’s another strike. And it’s easy to say go to the library but very few libraries have an extensive equestrian selection. Just some things to think about…
that the owner may reject despite the others involved apearent acceptance. NT can carry a counter offer from the owner to all concerned, but until the owner signes off on it it is just a work in progress.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
What I was saying about the horse for 3K, was what is my responsibility as you see it to the current owner? I did not say I was horse hunting for a particular person. That makes it different!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh? I don’t see a dilemma here at all, unless the current owner is a customer of yours also.
And as far as not “horse hunting for a particular person”, in a previous post you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>…easily worth 10K to one of my customers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, you’re talking semantics. Justification on your part to have a customer of yours who has $10k to spend – whether they’re actively looking at this time or not – spend more money than they need to. Plus, I would bet you’d make your customer pay you 15% on top. Uggh.
And I really want to know why everyone thinks 15% should be the going rate for commissions.
Ms. Kagan’s letter was right on.
There are many BNT’s out there who are also pulling for such a thing, but this idea is so huge that I don’t see it happening in my lifetime. The certifications in the US available these days are looked upon as jokes because they just don’t work. Maybe the USEq could learn from their mistakes.
There will still be crooks regardless (just like bad hairdressers and shifty lawyers 
). People just need to be more vocal, and less afraid. If a judge is friends with a shifty trainer, and pins according to that trainer’s whim, do you think that will help that judge get more jobs? Kudos to Leslie, and more people should speak out!!!
Walking on water is my specialty, making wine out of it is an art. 
What a GREAT letter!
What a great discussion!!!
Found the view, but too expensive
I think to start with, people should be willing to talk about their experiences with certain trainers, both good and bad.
I had a trainer (not mine) try to sell me a horse that had a lot less training than she stated and more importantly, had navicular: “oh we just vetted this horse two months ago and he was clean” “thanks but I still need to vet him”
I tell vets, friends, acquaintences, etc. about my experience. I don’t even make personal statements about the trainer, just state the facts.
A trainer can try to scream “slander” all she/he wants but just stating fact is NEVER slander.
some one who represents both the buyer and seller has a conflict of interests. no getting around it. if a professional tells a seller that they can get them more than the asking price [because they are also representing the buyer and know their budget] they are doing the buyer a disservice. the trouble is, as the student out grows the beginner horse, they move up to better ones. my daughter had 10 years of fun with a $600 horse, 2 of those years with this group
http://www.ggaa.org/
Dear LMH,
Thank you for your kind words and let me repay them. I think your idea for an owner’s organization is ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!
How about titling it OW!
(Owners World)
It would be a way to deseminate information as well as for all of us to become better educated.
I love this idea!!!
[This message was edited by Varsity team on Sep. 22, 2002 at 11:35 AM.]
All I have to say is BRAVO to the writer, Leslie Kagen.
Very well done.
“Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice.” quote from the tv series MAS*H
The sky must be falling - I actually agree with you, Go Dog Go.
I can scan it in if folks wish - I am sure (or hope) that wouldn’t be against COTH rules. It is a marvelous letter, and her list probably should be etched into wood and hung in every barn.
Do any professionals charge something like a flat finder’s fee? Say $500 to find a horse for a client with a budget of $2500 - $7500 (I’m just picking hypothetical numbers here, they could be multiplied by ten or one hundred, depending on the case).
With the fee pre-established and not completely tied to the buyer’s cost of the horse, wouldn’t the professional then search to find the buyer the best deal? The professional would make the same amount of money regardless of the price of the horse. Am I nutso for thinking something like this might work a bit better than commissions?
No one can teach riding so well as a horse.
-C.S. Lewis
How do we write a letter of thanks to this woman? I tried to call her on the phone but couldn’t find a listing to personally thank her. This was so on point I was yelling YES, YES, YES when I read it.
And as far as selling horses - well we NEVER sell a horse to anyone without a contract and it is directly with the BUYER - no one else. If someone is being paid a commission relative to the sale - it’s stated in the sale and we issue a 1099 to them - so to get their money they have to provide us with a Tax ID #!!!
If I have to pay taxes on my horses business then the commissions are an expense and the trainers/agents/etc. can pay taxes on their income.
THANK YOU LESLEY KAGEN!!!
