An owner's bill of rights: Letter in this weeks COTH

[Allyn_M]

Over the time that I have participated on this board we have hashed this and rehashed it . I can say the same things now that I have in the past ,because to my knowledge nothing has changed.I think that trainers who indulge in the practice of misrepresenting horse prices are a lawsuit waiting to happen.Not much has happened so far ,because most customers are loath to admit they were so dumb as to let someone they trusted take advantage of them . The sad part of all of it is that some people who could be a great addition to the horse industry are slowly driven away.
In the Real Estate business ( I am a farm broker )we are strictly regulated as to who we are representing ( both buyer and seller have to sign agency agreements ).The agency that is representing the seller takes a listing at 6%. If he needs someone else from another agency to help him sell it ,they take 1/2 of that 6% . Everyone knows how much of the purchase price is commission and this is counted as an expense to the sale for tax purposes. If I pay someone to sell my horse I want all parties to be knowledgeable of that fact. The checks need to be sent directly to the seller . Since we are beginning to keep records of performance horses it may come to pass that people will begin to check who signs the registration papers and subsequently talk to the original owner and or breeder.
Right now trainers need to start thinking about those new customers who don’t know anything and help them to make some quality decisions. Because they are the geese laying the golden eggs and it seems a little short-sighted to keep choking them to death . After all a dead goose lays no eggs!!

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net

[FlightCheck]

[lawndart]

JR, thank you for your correction, I guess living out here in the middle of nowhere referral fees are an oxymoron as everyone knows everyone else, and knows the horses they own as well. You are more likely to learn about a horse from an overheard conversation at a picnic or horseshow, or someones Mom mentions to you at church that their daughter is going to college and selling her horse, would your daughter be interested? The great thing is you probably already know the horse and what it is capable of. The bad thing is if you don’t buy it, they want to know why every time they see you!

OLD FRIENDS FARM-Equine Retirement-We LOVE Seniors!!http://www.sphosting.com/oldffarm/welcome.html

[Beans]

This is an earned title and few seem to wear the crown. We have a stated policy on commissions and NO ONE represents horses for us. We’ve sat with too many people who were sold a bill of goods by an “agent” or “trainer” - many times the OWNER didn’t even know what was being said! And as far as earning a commission - if you found the buyer or seller - then a commission is due - but it should be by separate check. The OWNERSHIP of the horse should legally pass from the SELLER to the BUYER in writing - IMHO. After all if this is your business - don’t you want to protect yourself? AND a 1099 should be issued to the person getting the commission. That way it’s their problem about reporting the income.

But if you talk to me about a horse for sale and then represent the horse to someone else - you get nothing if I don’t sell this horse to the person. AND - we will NOT pay a commission to a ANYONE getting a commission from the other side. It’s a total conflict of interest and unethical and we won’t be a part of it. YOu can’t serve two masters.

But we see people who sell their own horse and then have their TRAINER demand some huge commission even though they had nothing to do with the sale. HAH! I’d let them sue me and then stand before a judge and explain what they did to earn the commission. They’d get the heave ho very quickly. But too many horsepeople DON’T want to offend these oh so important “Trainers” and that’s the backbone of the letter in the COTH.

If the Trainers or Agents consider them Professionals then they should pick up a book on Ethics and see how it applies to their businesses. A lot of law came from the horrendous underhanded dealings of “horsetraders” historically in this country…doesn’t that make your wonder???

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Melinda:
The letter can be found at:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/letters.html

August 30<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, that only goes up to July 19.

[Sleepy]

jrjumpermom, don’t pay that trainer a DIME. If you do, you are perpetuating what’s wrong with the system. They clearly did NOT successfully market the horse.

[SillyHorse]

Question: why will you be paying a 15% commission when you buy the new horse? Do you mean that it will be built into the price of the new horse, or is your trainer planning to charge you over and above what you pay?

SillyHorse
~ Even on a fast machine, an infinite loop takes a while to run.

[tle]

Thank you for posting the article!!

While I agree with all the Dos and Don’ts that were mentioned, I have to wonder why someone would ALLOW themselves to be so in the dark as to their animals that any of those would happen? I’m not looking down on anyone as I’ve been the person that these types of things have happened to. But the longer I spent in the industry (as owner and competitor), the more I have sought out knowledge and assimilated it for my use. Most of the items on that list ARE common sense business practices… but why would they be a major problem if people (the customers) did in fact insist that those practices were followed? That they were treated with the respect they deserved and yes, that they had the knowledge to find fault with any system that wasn’t up to snuff.

I love owners and try to give them as much credit as possible, but really… if they don’t want to be “taken” by the next sham-artist (whether in or out of the horse industry) then they should take some responsibility for their own investments and actions and learn about said subject. Otherwise it becomes yet another example of how our society is quickly moving SOOOO far away from personal responsibility and into “it’s their fault” crap.

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If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

“All’s well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say.” – Buffy

[artienallie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Varsity team:
Artienallie,
Thanks for the help and where are you in Virginia?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going to reply via email, but you don’t have an email listed.

Varsity team, I’m in Northern VA - I keep my horses at EverythingButWings’ barn. A wonderful benefit to posting here was I found such an amazing place & person.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now just where can a potential horse buyer go to research how to buy a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>“A Horse of Your Own” is a good place to start. And there have been several good articles in PH.

[system]

Riddle me this:

Trainer has new clients come into the barn with two horses. Clients already have a plan. Junior horse is to sell at the end of the season, and child will finish out her last junior year (next year) on mom’s horse in the big eqs.

Junior horse had been tried while under the tutilage of former trainer (FT), but an agreement was made that the sale was on hold until the end of the season. New trainer (NT) speaks with trainer of prospective buyer (TOPB) at show, and NT is informed of the game plan. According to TOPB, PB will try horse again at next show, and then lease for a month, then buy. Owner NEVER agreed with FT to lease, and so NT has to work through a bunch of “mis-truths” to straighten this particular situation out. Meanwhile, NT has several other trainers approach her about the horse. Owner is going (rightfully so) to give PB first option (if the non-lease thing can be worked out).

What about FT???

Yes, I’m just enjoyng the ride!

Walking on water is my specialty, making wine out of it is an art.

[Lord_Helpus]

We might have to sit back and wait our turn vis a vis the NGB conflict.

But when that has been resolved (it has to end someday…), perhaps an owners committee within USA Eq. could start the ball rolling. There will be much opposition from the old guard who has been conducting business at will for years. But all we are asking for is that horsemen conduct themselves as they require in professionals in other trades to do. Someone mentioned hairdressers, and of course attorneys. Even used car salesmen are required to abide by UCC guidelines. Only horsemen are totally unregulated, because we, as the consumer, have not demanded it.

[jr]

Barnie,

There is a special place in heaven for honest trainers who put their clients first. I think the hostility your seeing is a result of those others…the ones that misrepresent sales prices and skim off the top, sell clients unsuitable horses so they can make additional $ on the resale, etc. I used to train with one of those…luckily I didn’t have enough $ to be of much concern to her…

Instead of viewing all trainers throught this lens, folks should look for the good ones. They are out there… even on the A Circuit. I finally found one to work with, and the progress we’ve made is incredible.

[Sandy_M]

Back in the day (1977)… my first, best event horse was brought for sale into the barn where I boarded my not-very-good TB mare. My trainer led him in and asked if I recognized him. Three years earlier, he had gone through an auction and sold for more money than I could pay (at the time). Actually, he hadn’t reached his reserve, had been sold privately, and had been either in pasture or being a school horse for three years (mostly pasture - he was pretty fat!). Someone else had “first dibs” on him, but declined because of his age. My trainer asked me if I were interested. I said yes and she negotiated the sale with the seller, got the price down to half the asking (because he was “middle-aged”) and waived any commission. Why? Not because she was my friend or buddy, but because she realized she’d make a heck of a lot more $$$ teaching me and re-training this horse than taking a commission, and also would benefit from lots of good will from doing a good deed for a very happy purchaser (me!). However, horse prices are so inflated these days, you just know that similar attitudes can no longer prevail. Sad.

[dogchushu]

I don’t think anyone is accusing most horse professionals of being dishonest. Just that it hurts so much when you’re taken advantage of. Generally, your trainer is someone you’ve gotten to know and have built trust in. You feel a betrayal you don’t get with a used car salesperson.

As for bearing some responsibility for putting yourself in a position to be ripped off. Maybe that has some merit. But it smacks of blaming the victim to me. And it doesn’t excuse anyone. If I leave my purse on the front seat of my car and someone smashes my window and steals it, you bet I’m stupid. But you still have no right to steal it. And it’s still flat out wrong.

Perhaps it’s difficult for people who’ve been involved with horses for a long time to realize just how little someone new to the sport can know. When I started riding I was a prime candidate for being taken advantage of. Mostly because I had no clue I could be. I didn’t expect there were dishonest people in the horse business any more than I would expect there would be dishonest people in any profession (although, with the corporate scandals lately, I’m much less naive about that).

I found my trainer through the yellow pages and went because it was convenient. Yup. Could’ve been a dreadful situation. But I didn’t think to ask at tack stores (I didn’t even know there were such things as tack stores or where people bought horse supplies). I didn’t know anyone who rode.

To give you a clue how little I understood, I didn’t know what my trainer meant when she mentioned her barn taught “hunt seat” riding. I had no idea there was a difference between hunt seat, dressage, or balance seat. I’d never even heard of any of them. Heck, I barely knew there was a difference between English and Western riding! I thought it was just in how they dressed. I was told to show up for my first lesson in shoes with a heel, so I wore topsiders.

Once I got hooked (after the first ride), I made an effort to learn all I could simply because I loved it so. But it didn’t occur to me for over a year that there were unscrupulous people in the business.

As for parents of riders who get ripped off, please understand that a lot of parents aren’t really into horses themselves–they’re only involved because their child loves it so. As a result, they only learn as much as they have to in order to support that child. They don’t read all about horses any more than I would read about golf (a sport I find incredibly dull) if I had a child interested in it. And they don’t go to horsey internet sites because they don’t even know they’re out there. They’ve probably build up a lot of trust in the professional who, if unscrupulous, works hard to fool them into establishing that level of trust.

All that being said, perhaps I am still hopelessly naive, but I truly believe the unscrupulous professionals are a small minority. I’ve never met such a wonderful group of decent people as those I’ve met through horses. Most disputes I’ve seen have been misunderstandings that have escalated. I think true bad behavior just gets so much attention because it is such a betrayal of trust.

[LMH]

Varsity team-one day I would love to sit down with you and personally shake your hand…for AGES I have wanted to write something similar and send it to COTH but never got around to it or never had the nerve or never thought it would make a difference.

I take my hat off to you. I can only hope that the ball you started rolling will keep rolling and rolling.

What is even more upsetting is most people likely don’t know the half of what goes on…

I also agree that there has to be a way to get things going without waiting on USAE…that WILL take longer than our lifetime…perhaps there could be some sort of owner’s organization-I haven’t thought this through…but something of an information highway—a source for information on trainers good and bad…something like that.

It might be a start…

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain’t right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

[Midge]

As far as representing the 3000 horse for 10,000…
Let’s assume the owner has a 10,000 horse and doesn’t realize it.

I see no reason a pro cannot represent it for 10, if the 10 goes to the owner and the pro gets a commission on the 10 rather than the 3.
The pro should not pocket the 7.

Sadly, often buyers don’t care that they are being ripped off. I was talking with a mother about this type of situation and she said she didn’t care as long as she knew about it. She and the trainer were friends and she liked them to make money yadda, yadda, yadda. First, I can’t imagine anyone thinking it would be okay to buy a 20,000 horse and write the check for 40. Second, if you want them to have money, just give it to them!

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Just because you’re not paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.

[stephanie]

just FYI, erin or whoever’s administering the site, I went to check the letters section from the COTH home page, and the link on the side goes to the site map, not the letters page…

[DMK]

Barnie, let’s just assume I am a homeowner with a house for sale. I’m asking $225,000 when other similar models on the street are going for $275,000. Now who knows exactly WHY I am doing this? Maybe I didn’t check on current value, maybe I suspect the thing is built on a sinkhole and will disappear tomorrow, or maybe I have a suspicion abnout some termite damage that isn’t readily apparent yet, or maybe by some miracle everything else has $50K in upgrades.

Let’s say you want to buy a house like mine - let’s say you like the neighborhood, the school district, the floor plan, and since you have done your homework you are prepared to spend $275K.

Naturally you have a realtor showing you houses. Which of the following is acceptable to you?

1. Realtor refuses to show you the house, we will never know if it was because of the potential drop in commission or because he/she suspected it had fatal flaws (as in more than $50K worth).

2. Realtor bought the house as soon as he/she saw it in the market and turned around and priced it at $275K and showed it to you.

3. Realtor showed you the house at $225K, told you that it could possibly be the bargain of the century OR it could be a total money pit.

4. Realtor went to owner of house (me) and said, “Damn, this baby is worth $275K - what say I sell it for that, and you and I split the $50K” Thereby earning $25K plus her commission.

5. Realtor showed you the house at $225K, you declined because you could see it needed some work. Realtor bought house after you declined because his/her spouse does restoration work, and they can see that this area is rapidly appreciating - they sell the house 12 months later for $300K and clear $50K.

So which option would you prefer to be party to (seeing as it is your money and all)?

The way I see it, #3 and #5 are the only real options for me. #1 treats me like an idiot, #2 may not be illegal, but it has a certain lack of ethics - should I have learned of it, I certainly would never recommend or use that realtor. #4 would cost the realtor his/her license and open them up to a lawsuit.

Bottom line is that 3/5 are what happens. #4 just does NOT cut it in the real world.

[I]“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”

Albert Einstein (1878-1955)[/I]

[creseida]

Me, too! pout

~<>~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~<>~