I don’t believe it either. No Way. He didn’t even start saying that till a week ago.
The thing is, if you are buying them off a cheap track, most do not have steriods in them. At the bigger tracks or bigger trainers, ya, they probably have it, but very few get it at the lower level tracks. Purses suck already and these horses walk on hotwalkers everyday with other horses. You would know if they were pumped that full of steroids when you looked at them.
I have had people buy horses off of me and then the horse looks terrible after a couple of months. That is the NEW owners fault. I’ve had horses come in on steriods, and they don’t go through all of that when they come off of it. Then again the are getting a lot of good feed and vitamins in them everyday along with exercise.
My easy keeper guy went to a farm for a winter break and came back looking terrible, they thought he was going through “withdrawals”, well, since I’ve owned him for 3 years, I know he hasn’t been getting any steriods. It’s mostly the change that gets these horses coming off the track and they aren’t used to not being pampered. They have to adapt to normal life.
The dose is important though…
You can’t compare the crash or the effects of anabolic steroids in high doses that are given to human bodybuilders to the smaller amounts of anabolic steroids that are given to some racehorses to help them recover from racing/training, stimulate appetite etc. It’s apples and oranges. I doubt that the steroids had anything to do with the race outcome- more likely the heat, the trip (what a terrible trip he was having!) and the fact that he was lightly raced.
Be interesting to see if he’s going to the Travers and BC after all…
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3275181]
Jeez…let me comment on your points…
shiny coats… these horses are groomed and bathed every day… are they getting that care at the farm? Probably not.
calming down… hours of turnout will do that to a horse!
Not growing winter coats… many TB’s will not grow fuzzy winter coats… they have never had to. Usually it takes a winter or two, if they do.
Putting on weight… what you see with a “thin” TB that has been racing is conditioning… they are athletes, so yes, usually it takes time and feed for them to put on weight.
To blame it all on steroids is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Many of us have worked with race horses and know fit horses for races up to 6 miles. I don’t think you have a picture in your mind’s eye of what we’re talking about when we say thin. We’ve also watched many many racehorses go on “vacations” where they’re tossed out in a field with an outshed and spend the next 6 weeks getting fat and staying shiney. These guys don’t become depressed with the sudden change in schedule; they love it. Jumpers follow this routine all the time.
Fuzzy winter coats? I used to spend hours every fall clipping fuzzy tbs who were running through the winter.
About three months after I had one horse who was crashing from steroids, my blacksmith one day looked at me and said, “well, he didn’t die, I was afraid you were going to lose this guy.” That’s how hard he crashed. And this horse was kept in a stall and had probably more attention than he ever had at the track. Acertainsmile, it happens, if you look you’ll see it.
Thomas 1 - In most racing jurisdictions in the US anabolic steroids are legal. The Racing Medication and Testing Consortium is working hard to change that. (yea)
Solargal, in my experience a lot of trainers at lower end tracks use anabolic steroids. But I have no idea what proportion of them do and I’m sure many can’t afford to.
SEPowell, I would bet that you were seeing results of a horse that was on EPO, not steroids…
I just want to add that I’ve been in the “business” for over 25 yrs…I’ve taken many horses off the track, and there are some trainers that give horses far worse drugs than steroids…I’ve seen the effects up close and personal…in all my years, and many horses, I’ve never seen one take a nose dive from lack of steroids that you’ve described. If you want you can pm me the name of the trainer who had this particular horse…I can probably shed some light on the subject for you.
As far as winter coats…yes of course there are fuzzy TB’s… I work my clippers to death over the fall and winter… but most just dont grow coats like my QH or ponies.
Maybe the horse I referred to above did suffer from the effects of EPO; he ceretainly looked anemic. But that doesn’t explain the studish behavior. Maybe he was suffering from the effects of both, we simply can’t be certain. I’ve never had a stallion on abs, but a close friend of mine did buy one at a low end sale, gelded him and he crashed so hard that it was many many months before he began to regain strength and condition.
Anabolic steroids affect adrenal function and when you mess with the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis there will be consequences. For obvious reasons, the focus in equine vet research regarding anabolic steroids has been in reproduction, but in my opinion, we need to know more about the effects of their long term use. Hopefully they’ll be banned in racing and then they’ll be no more harmful to tbs than a good discussion.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3275181]
Jeez…let me comment on your points…
shiny coats… these horses are groomed and bathed every day… are they getting that care at the farm? Probably not.
calming down… hours of turnout will do that to a horse!
Not growing winter coats… many TB’s will not grow fuzzy winter coats… they have never had to. Usually it takes a winter or two, if they do.
Putting on weight… what you see with a “thin” TB that has been racing is conditioning… they are athletes, so yes, usually it takes time and feed for them to put on weight.
To blame it all on steroids is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Well said, Acertainsmile! :yes:
I’m sorry, but for those of you blaming steroids for the “crash” your OTTBs have, you’re blaming the wrong thing. You can (and I have - I’ve got one on layup right now) take a horse off monthly Winstrol and see no noticeable difference.
The “withdrawal” signs mentioned are due to changes in the type and quantity of food and supplements, changes in medications (other things besides steroids can make a coat slick and shiny), changes in routine and most importantly - changes in exercise and a loss of muscle mass.
[QUOTE=SEPowell;3276826]
Solargal, in my experience a lot of trainers at lower end tracks use anabolic steroids. But I have no idea what proportion of them do and I’m sure many can’t afford to.[/QUOTE]
My best guesstimate is as follows:
20% use them regularly on all their horses (ala Dutrow)
10% use them for some “who need them”
70% never use them
I don’t have time to find the exact data, but Pennsylvania did random testing in the fall/winter to see how many horses were on steroids and the results were pretty low.
One trainer, who wins at 40+% at Charles Town, uses steroids + EPO. You can figure out who it is.
Personally, I’ve never seen it really move horses up that much. I haven’t used the stuff since 2003.
I think the 70% that dont use steroids is a big number, and a wrong one…JMO
I have no input re: Big Brown.
Wanted to give a pictoral of a horse “crashing” from steroids. I helped a friend purchase an 8 year old OTTB off Penn National in November 2007. I took him on in February 2008.
Pictures can be found in my thread
Though I’ve worked with double digits of OTTB’s over the last 12 years, this was my first encounter with “crashing.” It wasn’t immediate but it was scary. There wasn’t one part of his body or personality that wasn’t affected by this.
Every test my vet or I could think of was run. The only two anomolies were very low cortisol levels and low thyroid function. In fact, in test results for the domperidone challenge, the 4 and 8 hour baselines for this horse DECLINED compared to his baseline reading. I would be interested, and willing, to see what his ACTH levels and results in stimulation tests read in a year or two.
Even 8 months out from his retirement at the track, he has just now begun regaining the weight, coat condition and personality. Here he is a week and a half ago.
Of course, no one associated with the horse could confirm what types of hormones he received at the track so it is a bit of speculation. I wish I could provide cold hard facts about this particular case, but they aren’t there. Just wanted to share an experience similar to what the other OTTB folks here have seen.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3278667]
I think the 70% that dont use steroids is a big number, and a wrong one…JMO[/QUOTE]
98.8% of horses in PA tested negative before the steroid rule was implemented.
Oh, and also wanted to point out to those who are saying “I took my horses off steroids and they were fine”… yes, it happens. I’ve had the same experience. But I’ve also had the experience I mentioned above. If you read the timeline I put forth in the thread referenced, I believe there is NO way changes in diet/turnout could have affected the changes I saw in the short amount of time they happened.
[QUOTE=MDEventer;3278728]
I have no input re: Big Brown.
Wanted to give a pictoral of a horse “crashing” from steroids. I helped a friend purchase an 8 year old OTTB off Penn National in November 2007. I took him on in February 2008.
Pictures can be found in my thread
Though I’ve worked with double digits of OTTB’s over the last 12 years, this was my first encounter with “crashing.” It wasn’t immediate but it was scary. There wasn’t one part of his body or personality that wasn’t affected by this.
Every test my vet or I could think of was run. The only two anomolies were very low cortisol levels and low thyroid function. In fact, in test results for the domperidone challenge, the 4 and 8 hour baselines for this horse DECLINED compared to his baseline reading.
Even 8 months out from his retirement at the track, he has just now begun regaining the weight, coat condition and personality. Here he is a week and a half ago.
Of course, no one associated with the horse could confirm what types of hormones he received at the track so it is a bit of speculation. I wish I could provide cold hard facts about this particular case, but they aren’t there. Just wanted to share an experience similar to what the other OTTB folks here have seen.[/QUOTE]
These pictures are “unavailable” (for me anyway). I suspect your horse was on EPO (maybe with or without steroids). The withdrawl from EPO can be rough for some, but not all horses.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3278749]
These pictures are “unavailable” (for me anyway). I suspect your horse was on EPO (maybe with or without steroids). The withdrawl from EPO can be rough for some, but not all horses.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, they are on Facebook, which I realize has problems. I’m also blocked at work, or would repost them somewhere neutral 
Can you, or someone else familiar, describe EPO and its effects? My understanding is that steroids directly affect the adrenal gland and therefore cortisol production. A short bit of research on EPO does not show the same.
Testing in my horse showed reduced cortisol production and inability to react to the domperidone. Test results were interpreted to say the adrenal gland’s function was impaired. Knowing the link between steroids and the adrenal gland, combined with this horse’s recent history of retirement, the theory was posited this is his problem.
Can EPO cause the same glandular effects? Or is my horse a real anomoly, with a naturally occuring condition opposite of Cushings? I don’t wish to be argumentative, really just inquisitive. Since my guy’s “diagnosis” is really a theory, I am open to gathering information on similar situations.
[QUOTE=MDEventer;3278743]
Oh, and also wanted to point out to those who are saying “I took my horses off steroids and they were fine”… yes, it happens. I’ve had the same experience. But I’ve also had the experience I mentioned above. If you read the timeline I put forth in the thread referenced, I believe there is NO way changes in diet/turnout could have affected the changes I saw in the short amount of time they happened.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry for the trouble you’ve been having with your horse and hope all works out well. But - as you’ve said - you don’t know if he was even on steroids - you’re assuming. And, that’s been my point - people with OTTBs are automatically assuming that their horses have been on steroids and are having withdrawal and that’s generally neither a fair nor accurate assumption.
[QUOTE=MDEventer;3278789]
Sorry, they are on Facebook, which I realize has problems. I’m also blocked at work, or would repost them somewhere neutral
Can you, or someone else familiar, describe EPO and its effects? My understanding is that steroids directly affect the adrenal gland and therefore cortisol production. A short bit of research on EPO does not show the same.
Testing in my horse showed reduced cortisol production and inability to react to the domperidone. Test results were interpreted to say the adrenal gland’s function was impaired. Knowing the link between steroids and the adrenal gland, combined with this horse’s recent history of retirement, the theory was posited this is his problem.
Can EPO cause the same glandular effects? Or is my horse a real anomoly, with a naturally occuring condition opposite of Cushings? I don’t wish to be argumentative, really just inquisitive. Since my guy’s “diagnosis” is really a theory, I am open to gathering information on similar situations.[/QUOTE]
My opinion was based on how your horse was reacting. I don’t know about the test results you had done. It could very easily be a combo of steroids + EPO which made the withdrawl much worse. I wish you would share who had the horse for his last race as that might shed some light on the truth. You can PM me if you wish. I know most of the regimines of the Penn trainers.
Perhaps you aren’t seeing the claimers whose medical management is not passed on from one trainer to the next and who are pushed hard to run with every new trainer. I seriously doubt that any of you manage your horses as aggressively as some of these claimers are.
Low thyroid function and the lethargy that came with it in MDEventer’s horse could definitely be attributed to abs withdrawal. EPO can cause anemia, but not low throid function.
I clearly remember a mare 30 years ago who came off the track and was meant to be bred that year. Abs made that plan impossible. She also crashed, and again, looked terrible for many many months. Was EPO even around back then?
Anyway, I’m looking forward to picking my vet’s brain next time I see her.
I dont’ believe EPO was around then. Seems to me like it came to light in the 90’s.
Acertainsmile, excellent post.
I run a barn full of claiming horses. Any horse worth less than $50k is a claimer, plain and simple. All of my horses are claimers. I dont have one worth $50k+. And the key to making money (this IS a business, after all) is managing your stock and keeping them in top physical and mental condition. Since we have been making a living doing this for all of my adult life, we must know at least a little bit. I learned on $300 horses, patching them back together, getting them 100% and made a living by getting them to run like it used to. So, you might say, I manage my lowly “claimers” rather well.
I seriously doubt that any of you manage your horses as aggressively as some of these claimers are.
SEpowell, you would be wrong.
Sleepyfox… your point about people ASS-U-ME-ing the worse when most horses go from the track to a non track life is why I find it hard to stomach this board at times. Everyone is “rescuing” their OTTBs, or “saving” them. Most don’t have the horsemanship required to work with a very smart, reactive TB then claim the horse has been abused until they have desensitized the Tb enough to accept dealing with that person. Most of the time, non-tb folks dont have a clue how to feed a TB or how to transition it to a non “high performance” diet and exercise program.
You folks do realize, dont you, that after it’s racing career a horse loses it’s racing muscle then puts back on new muscle commensurate with it’s new exercise program? You must manage them very carefully or you will see these “crashes” that everyone blames on steroids (and it could very well be steroids in a smaller % - I would guesstimate perhaps 25-30% are on them). Turning them out for 2-3 months and forgetting about them in order to let the steroids wear off is a perfect recipe for muscle atrophy unless the horse is turned out in a LARGE pasture, runs and plays a lot, but not to the point of nervously pacing the fence (and losing weight) because it isnt used to being thrown into a field and forgotten about. It helps if the horse is exercised in some way to maintain and rebuild the muscle required for a life of leisure compared to the racetrack. They have to lose the long lean racing muscle while gaining new, slower, heavier muscle required for a different kind of riding. Less than perfect management during this phase often results in what many people call a “crash.” Yes, some horses are on steroids, but the cheaper the horse, most often the less $ is invested in the animal with the vet.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3278667]
I think the 70% that dont use steroids is a big number, and a wrong one…JMO[/QUOTE]
Oh ya. I’d lean more toward 70% do use them.
