Anabolic Steroid Withdrawal and BB

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=MDEventer;3278789]

Can you, or someone else familiar, describe EPO and its effects? My understanding is that steroids directly affect the adrenal gland and therefore cortisol production. A short bit of research on EPO does not show the same.

Testing in my horse showed reduced cortisol production and inability to react to the domperidone. Test results were interpreted to say the adrenal gland’s function was impaired. Knowing the link between steroids and the adrenal gland, combined with this horse’s recent history of retirement, the theory was posited this is his problem.

Can EPO cause the same glandular effects? Or is my horse a real anomoly, with a naturally occuring condition opposite of Cushings? I don’t wish to be argumentative, really just inquisitive. Since my guy’s “diagnosis” is really a theory, I am open to gathering information on similar situations.[/QUOTE]

My understanding of EPO is that one of its most serious side effects is anemia. It can be deadly in horses, according to all the literature I’ve read. I’ve read nothing about it having the glandular effects that anabolic steroids have. In my experience your horse is not an anomoly.

Like MDEventer, I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just really stumped. Turf and steeplechase horses are just tossed out in the field for vacations all the time with no adverse effects. They stay on their regular feeding schedule, but exercise ends except for turnout. And yet, when I buy horses showing the behavioral symptoms of anabolic steroids they sometimes (not always) crash and crash hard. Jessi P, maybe you don’t see it because either the horses are claimed from you or you manage them very carefully (as you described), perhaps maintaining their abs

I think the anecdotal evidence we have to offer is important and worth considering.

[LarissaL]

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;3278667]
And, that’s been my point - people with OTTBs are automatically assuming that their horses have been on steroids and are having withdrawal and that’s generally neither a fair nor accurate assumption.[/QUOTE]

That may be the impression given on this board. But I don’t think “people with OTTBs” in general have these assumptions. For example, I ran over 10 separate tests and have spent in excess of $3,000 with professionals to try to determine or help this horse’s problem. In April, it was suggested to me that perhaps he was “crashing.” Even after hearing that theory from multiple people, I pursued every other viable diagnostic I could.

I have to “assume” something in order to forumalate a plan for his recovery. With testing nearly exhausted, and the only clues to go on low cortisol and thyroid levels and his extended race history, we did the best we could.

But, that’s one person’s experience.

Curiously, why is there such an uproar over folks saying horses crash coming down off steroids?

I don’t frequent the Racing board, so perhaps there is a backstory here. Is it because it implies we “people with OTTBs” think racing and its people are causing “our” horses harm? Why is it more acceptable if the horse is coming down off EPO?

Are there other possibilities? Frankly, my exposure to track practices is limited. Not being on the backside, I am an outsider and race track folk are very guarded with what they’ll tell me. I can understand why… some folks judge racers harshly. I am only trying to do right by the horses that I take on and not knowing their previous management practices does them a great disservice. I can spend months guessing what “works” for a particular horse when someone else already knows. It’s a shame trainers and “people with OTTBs” seem to be at odds.

[caffeinated]

@SEPowell;3279275

I think the anecdotal evidence we have to offer is important and worth considering.

You know, perhaps what’s really needed is an actual study. If groups or people taking horses off the track can find out for sure any and all medications they may have been on, then track their progress over the next year (body scores, etc) while keeping all the horses on a matched program, it would be easier to figure out what’s going on.

It would require lots of honesty from trainers, and a fair bit of effort. I’m not even sure it would be possible to standardize care routines, even. But it might be interesting, and could probably answer a lot more questions than our anecdotal evidence can.

Because it seems like on “both sides” here there’s not real “evidence” of anything, but merely the experiences of individuals. It might turn out the “crashing” has nothing to do with medication, it might also turn out to be something totally random…

[Acertainsmile]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3278741]
98.8% of horses in PA tested negative before the steroid rule was implemented.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11443[/QUOTE]

How many horses were tested? Surely not every horse at Penn…I believe you said it was random testing…so that could mean they only tested 10 horses out of 500…

[SleepyFox]

[QUOTE=MDEventer;3279331]
Curiously, why is there such an uproar over folks saying horses crash coming down off steroids?

I don’t frequent the Racing board, so perhaps there is a backstory here. Is it because it implies we “people with OTTBs” think racing and its people are causing “our” horses harm? Why is it more acceptable if the horse is coming down off EPO?

Are there other possibilities? Frankly, my exposure to track practices is limited. Not being on the backside, I am an outsider and race track folk are very guarded with what they’ll tell me. I can understand why… some folks judge racers harshly. I am only trying to do right by the horses that I take on and not knowing their previous management practices does them a great disservice. I can spend months guessing what “works” for a particular horse when someone else already knows. It’s a shame trainers and “people with OTTBs” seem to be at odds.[/QUOTE]

You know, I was thinking about this and it certainly is possible your horse was “crashing” from coming off steroids. It wouldn’t be common, but maybe he had a very high dose or just reacted differently than most. The reason I get defensive about steroids is that people are making a lot of assumptions and moral judgements about them without knowing the facts and that’s troubling. And, I have heard the “withdrawal” stories about OTTBs so many times and know so often it’s just a matter of what we’ve talked about in this thread. So, I probably am too defensive.

EPO is DEFINITELY not more acceptable - but it’s more likely just b/c steroids don’t usually cause withdrawal symptoms like you described.

I think the backstory is that, yes, a lot of the OTTB crowd (not all for sure!) make some unpleasant and frequently erroneous assumptions about track life and well, it just gets old. I am so glad that people take OTTBs and love them and the racing set is very closed which is unfortunate and we really should work on that, but it just seems like we’re being attacked a lot - for nothing that showhorse people don’t also do.

Okay, I’m sorry for ranting!

[Laurierace]

Over the years I have had two of my own trainees that went on to be riding horses “crash” after coming off the track. They were boarded at the barn I board at so I know the standard of care was good. I trained both of them on the track, one for about a year and one her entire career. I know the one horse never had steroids or EPO or anything else besides the normal, bute, lasix and such. The other horse may have had something before I got him, but not in the year I had him. Both looked like a million dollars the day they came off the track. Their coats were awesome, their weight was great. Both absolutely melted. One rebounded on his own, the other one rebounded only after being given a course of liquid pancur as a power pack and ulcer treatment. They both took well over six months to look decent again though. If I had to guess, I think both horses got ulcers after leaving the track. That is the only explanation I can come up with.

[Acertainsmile]

The steroid assumption bugs me as well…but if you ask the average OTTB owner about EPO, they will most likely give you a blank stare…that drug is truly horrific.

We claimed a very nice horse, from a well known succesful trainer…he “crashed” within a week, we really wondered if he would ever make it back to the races.

My husband thought about trying to have the claim voided once we had an idea of what we were dealing with, but due to an old friendship he didnt. Personally I wanted to nail this guy to the wall…

The horse recovered, ran well for us and was claimed from us on the raise. In fact he is still competing at the opptional allowance level today.