“You suck” is very different from describing how someone could better sit a horse, or apply an aid. Although come to think of it, describing how to sit a horse is a very difficult thing to do.
There’s an art to giving constructive criticism.
[QUOTE=hessy35;3778755]
Maybe not everyone thinks negative reinforcement works. It often doesn’t. Being overly critical rarely helps and is often considered down right mean, and usually is given by those that have issues and need to really think about why they choose to criticize rather than give constructive advice with positive undertones. Not everyone believes in bashing someone to get results.[/QUOTE]
To pop in with a little learning theory, bashing is just another form of punishment in learning theory terms- but I think that the blunt, no-nonsense methods of the European trainers (and many good American trainers too) are not based on using punishment to get results.
Honestly, I pay a trainer to tell me what I’m doing wrong and help me figure out how to fix it. So they are in a unique position of having to very carefully meter their time and not spend too much of it on praise.
So I think for the more thick skinned people, this method works really well because it focuses more effort where it’s needed. For people who really need confidence built along with skills, it works less well and a “sandwicher” is a better choice.
It sounds like European riders develop more confidence through more focused, coordinated instruction in youth and community support, so the blunt, to the point method is probably the most effective.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3778826]
To pop in with a little learning theory, bashing is just another form of punishment in learning theory terms- but I think that the blunt, no-nonsense methods of the European trainers (and many good American trainers too) are not based on using punishment to get results.
Honestly, I pay a trainer to tell me what I’m doing wrong and help me figure out how to fix it. So they are in a unique position of having to very carefully meter their time and not spend too much of it on praise.
So I think for the more thick skinned people, this method works really well because it focuses more effort where it’s needed. For people who really need confidence built along with skills, it works less well and a “sandwicher” is a better choice.
It sounds like European riders develop more confidence through more focused, coordinated instruction in youth and community support, so the blunt, to the point method is probably the most effective.[/QUOTE]
In other words, Eurpopean riders have better instructors (overall). I’d have to agree.
[QUOTE=hessy35;3779191]
In other words, Eurpopean riders have better instructors (overall). I’d have to agree.[/QUOTE]
Well, as those with more experience in the european system have stated, the system for training youth in equestrian sports just seems much more mature. I think we have some fabulous instructors here, but honestly good training is financially out of reach for most Americans. I think a lot of kids have spotty training for that reason alone- even if they have good trainers, they don’t get to use them enough.
I’m only qualified to comment on hunters and jumpers, :winkgrin:. I don’t comment on dressage videos, except maybe to admire a horse’s movement, because I’m not qualified to critique dressage. I’m not even qualified to learn dressage.
This is another reason I think American breeding is left behind when it comes to sport horses. Americans do not like criticism, they don’t want to hear the negatives, especially if it is not sugar coated. I think all of the American registries accept “off breed” mares because they don’t want to leave anyone out. Its just fits with the whole soft theme. Breeding is supposed to be about improving the breed, not about improving some humans self esteem!
What is to be learned by just seeing the good in everything? I dunno, its like if I were riding in a lesson and all my instructor kept doing was focusing on what I do right. Yeah, thats nice to get compliments and that is still important, but I will never progress if there is no focus on what needs to be improved?. I dont know about anyone else, but I sure as hell don’t pay alot of money towards dressage lessons ect do that someone can sit their and stroke my ego!
Sometimes I think someone just needs to say " that horse shouldnt be bred" or “Your horse is lame, get the hell off of it” or “you are trying to ride WAY past your capabilities”. At the end of the day, it is the horse that suffers when all we do is focus on the human in the equations self esteem or political correctness.
Americans do not like criticism
I dont think its all Americans! :lol:
So many people are serious out there and want honest anwsers. Most serious people know what and who to take seriously.
I have been riding for 25yrs and I dont know many who I have spent big money on that “blow sunshine up someones rear.”
I wont mention names, as I know she lurks here, but while learning my tempi changes in CA one summer, this “nice American Instructor” told me -
“you cant find your a** with both hands today… your a disgrace to that horse! Im going to go back to the barn and have a drink, you think about your sins”
Now, how is THAT for American teaching! (I still LOVE this trainer, BTW)
While in FL, while riding with a big name hunter trainer, there was very few times I was not yelled at for told “You look like a monkey ******** a football today!”
I can go on and on. There are tough ass trainers here in North America, people just dont want to ride with them cuz they are afraid… :lol:
Ahhhhhhh, I aint skkkeeeeeeeered!!! :lol: Bring it… 
[QUOTE=Donella;3779518]
This is another reason I think American breeding is left behind when it comes to sport horses. Americans do not like criticism, they don’t want to hear the negatives, especially if it is not sugar coated. I think all of the American registries accept “off breed” mares because they don’t want to leave anyone out. Its just fits with the whole soft theme. Breeding is supposed to be about improving the breed, not about improving some humans self esteem!
What is to be learned by just seeing the good in everything? I dunno, its like if I were riding in a lesson and all my instructor kept doing was focusing on what I do right. Yeah, thats nice to get compliments and that is still important, but I will never progress if there is no focus on what needs to be improved?. I dont know about anyone else, but I sure as hell don’t pay alot of money towards dressage lessons ect do that someone can sit their and stroke my ego!
Sometimes I think someone just needs to say " that horse shouldnt be bred" or “Your horse is lame, get the hell off of it” or “you are trying to ride WAY past your capabilities”. At the end of the day, it is the horse that suffers when all we do is focus on the human in the equations self esteem or political correctness.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing wrong with the truth, but there is a way to hand over the truth without being rude.
There is nothing wrong with the truth, but there is a way to hand over the truth without being rude.
Very true! Tact is best and you can tell someone they are not ready for some level without making them feel like a worthless person.
Example -
- “Why dont we work on the balance of those changes a bit more before going out for 3rd level” - instead of “Geeze, you cant even get ONE change down on the diagnol, your never going to get to 3rd!”
2 - “Your horse may not do very well at 2nd level because its calls for beginning collection” - instead of “your horse has horrible conformation and is so downhill it cant pull its head out of the ground”
-
- “Your not really ready for your first show, why dont we do some schooling shows first” - instead of “your waterskiing on his face and cant find your balance if I used superglue on your ass!”
Its not WHAT you say, its HOW you say it!
:lol:
…use the word “interesting”… Yes, it is a cop-out, but total strangers don’t need to ruin someone’s day.
Problem is, there’s a lot of warmblood mares that shouldn’t be bred either. It’s not just about “off breeds”.
I think theo is asking two questions that are not really related. If someone posts a video of themselves on youtube and asks for critique, they can’t, imo, be really serious. ANYBODY, regardless of experience or ability can respond. I can’t imagine anyone posting video on line truly wants serious opinion so might as well say “cute horsie”
As to the cultural difference and the question of the American vs German commentators, I think that is due to a variety of reasons, some of it language, some of it due to the more “matter of factness” of Europeans etc.
I also think that as a rule, they tend to take all sports more seriously so “self esteem” is not really that important. I suspect that has to do with available resources, especially post war. One had to prove one was worthy of something so valuable as riding. This is all speculation on my part but I think you could make a case for it!
I’m from the old “school” that believes in: "Tell truth and and tell it early " and “Tell me what I need to know…not what you think I want to hear”.
Whether it’s business, personal – horses or any other endeavor – why be anything less than truthful? It helps no one. Clearly, there is no excuse for being rude in the effort to be “educational”. Tact and diplomacy never go out of style.
Serious riders (breeders, horse farm managers – anyone who has a serious passion, really) who want to advance usually are more thick-skinned because they are more focused on learning and don’t feel “criticized” – they feel “helped” (assuming their instructor/mentor is truly qualified).
On the other hand, some individuals are SO sensitive they seek out those who tell them what they want to hear – and some instructors acquiesce for fear of losing a client. That can happen in any business (or any relationship really).
As far as critiquing on the BB…well, as the saying goes…“If you don’t like the answer, why ask the question?” (or something like that). I think that many COTH’rs have a good idea who may be qualified to give a professional and accurate critique and who isn’t. One CAN glean some good info at times.
[QUOTE=hessy35;3779584]
There is nothing wrong with the truth, but there is a way to hand over the truth without being rude.[/QUOTE]
I think it is interesting how long this thread has gotten as well as the one on the Olympia warm ups where saying anything less than “lovely horse!” is considered to be “from TOB” and thus “nuts” and “ignorant”
I’m American, educated in England, married to a German professional trainer for many years. I think “rudeness” isn’t tolerated well in any of those places, but there is a style of making critical remarks which is aimed more at showing how clever the speaker is than offering any real judgment–at its best it is Oscar Wilde and at its worst it is just taking cheap shots at the expense of others to draw attention to oneself. A lot of the comments posted here as examples of being “blunt” or “calling a spade a spade” actually come across to me as this “aren’t I the clever one!” sort of honesty…
I agree. A real professional doesn’t need to dumb someone else down to make themself feel better and validate their “worth”. Sadly, it happens all the time. Niave students don’t know the old saying…"those who can do, DO… those who can’t “teach”.
A caveat to this saying is that in the horse training business, those who “can” and DID may not be able to do ride actually ride anymore – they are physically older and bodies are failing. But they can and often are be the BEST teachers.
Look at the age of the trainer and what they have done in younger years…that says alot.
I don’t believe that ‘Americans don’t like criticism’.
Americans who are involved in sport are often very, very good at ‘taking criticism’, and working under some very, very blunt coaching.
Our kids who wrestle, box, run, play football and basketball are subjected to grueling regimens and they work their hearts and souls out for very, very demanding coaches who are constantly telling them that they need to run harder, faster, jump higher, or they’re off the team. They take criticism - BRUTAL criticism - and they use it to make themselves better.
We send some of the best athletes in the world to the Olympics and world championships. We win a shit load of medals.
We clearly, CLEARLY have a great many people in america who are VERY good at ‘taking criticism’.
I think the trouble is more from a group of individuals who band together to indulge in a kind of mutual deception when they take up dressage.
While many people in dressage are very coach-able, and improve, and work hard, and take criticism with great sportsmanship and learn to use it to improve, who learn from the judges and don’t sit and whine constantly about how unfair the judges are, there is a sizable group who are very, very different from that.
Some people just seem to make dressage into something very unrealistic. The aura of the past and the ‘perfection’ and ‘unity’ and ‘purity’ of past (imagined) Renaissance world, plus the ‘elegance’ and ‘intellectualism’ of dressage - it just draws a group who have a very, very tough time with the reality of riding - lots and lots of very hard, very not-elegant work on basic, basic things for a very long time.
To help them delude themselves, there are a whole lot of very bad (and unethical) instructors and trainers and ah…‘personalities’ out there who will HELP them delude themselves.
And they don’t get better. They’re very difficult at clinics and shows, and they get very angry and upset whenever reality tries to sneak up and tap them on the shoulder.
ha!
[QUOTE=STF;3779583]
I dont think its all Americans! :lol:
So many people are serious out there and want honest anwsers. Most serious people know what and who to take seriously.
I have been riding for 25yrs and I dont know many who I have spent big money on that “blow sunshine up someones rear.”
I wont mention names, as I know she lurks here, but while learning my tempi changes in CA one summer, this “nice American Instructor” told me -
“you cant find your a** with both hands today… your a disgrace to that horse! Im going to go back to the barn and have a drink, you think about your sins”
Now, how is THAT for American teaching! (I still LOVE this trainer, BTW)
While in FL, while riding with a big name hunter trainer, there was very few times I was not yelled at for told “You look like a monkey ******** a football today!”
I can go on and on. There are tough ass trainers here in North America, people just dont want to ride with them cuz they are afraid… :lol:
Ahhhhhhh, I aint skkkeeeeeeeered!!! :lol: Bring it… ;)[/QUOTE]
Personally, I like the stricter instructors that tell you how it is and yell their face off at you rather than the sweet, quiet i-hate-hurting-feelings instructors that tell you that you looked great in todays lesson when, in all actuality, you sucked…lol :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=SillyKobie;3780371]
Personally, I like the stricter instructors that tell you how it is and yell their face off at you rather than the sweet, quiet i-hate-hurting-feelings instructors that tell you that you looked great in todays lesson when, in all actuality, you sucked…lol :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Actually, I like a teacher who can teach me something. My trainer is pretty no-nonsense, but he’s also a master at confidence development. I think the secret is to praise, but make your praise mean something.
I think a good trainer also reads people and knows their limits- how much criticism can a person take, and how blunt? It’s a constant give and take to give a person as much criticism as they can handle but not more.
But part of that is knowing how to put things to maximize the amount of criticism (meaning actual critical analysis of what’s happening) a person can take. The best trainer is the one who can sit there for 45 minutes and tell you one after the other the things you should be doing better without ever making you feel like a failure.
Our kids who wrestle, box, run, play football and basketball are subjected to grueling regimens and they work their hearts and souls out for very, very demanding coaches who are constantly telling them that they need to run harder, faster, jump higher, or they’re off the team.
You have kids now?:lol:
I think criticism is much more useful and effective if it comes from your coach or trainer. I don’t know why anyone would want the random and arbitrary comments of people on bulletin boards, most of whom have shakey ,if any experience or credentials. Often the critiquers are not as experienced as the people in the videos but they get out the ruler and measure where the nose is in relation to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground.
Let’s face it. Most talented trainers and riders are not posting their opinions all day long on the internet.
I don’t think that you will have any trouble finding someone like that, but unfortunately, I think that kind of instruction, for dressage, is a grotesque failure.:no:
