[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6167465]
If you know enough about dogs to pick out a good one and train it to be the dog you want it to be, you’ll get a good dog, no matter what breed it is. [/QUOTE]
most people cannot do that with horses or dogs.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167469]
most people cannot do that with horses or dogs.[/QUOTE]
Well in that case breed bias doesn’t actually help them, it just gives a false sense of security. It makes them even LESS likely to actually test or consider the temperament of the dog, because they figure, “Oh well it’s a purebred so it will have a cookie cutter personality.”
Marley from “Marley & Me” was a purebred, and he was a flipping disaster.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6167486]
Well in that case breed bias doesn’t actually help them, it just gives a false sense of security. It makes them even LESS likely to actually test or consider the temperament of the dog, because they figure, “Oh well it’s a purebred so it will have a cookie cutter personality.”
Marley from “Marley & Me” was a purebred, and he was a flipping disaster.[/QUOTE]
? are you talking about breeders or buyers?
[QUOTE=2tempe;6167463]
That’s why my sister and I are so different…:lol:[/QUOTE]
Maybe. Position in the family structure plays an important role too. I don’t believe there is any conclusive proof to prove your statement.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167501]
? are you talking about breeders or buyers?[/QUOTE]
Buyers.
If you go into a transaction thinking, “Well, it is a purebred lab so it will be a trainable working dog” and you have no other temperament evaluation skills, you may end up with a trainable working dog or you may end up with a Marley. The chances may be in your favor but you are still relying on chance more than knowledge or skill. Meanwhile if you do your homework learning to evaluate temperament instead of just lazily relying on “the breed standard,” you can actually evaluate the individual, not his papers.
Breed bias is the lazy man’s evaluation tool. Sometimes it gets you a good individual, sometimes it gets you a lemon.
If you just learn to evaluate the individual in the first place, you’re better off.
There are breed traits though. For example, a collie is more likely to be friendly regardless of handling than say a GSD.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6167511]
Buyers.
If you go into a transaction thinking, “Well, it is a purebred lab so it will be a trainable working dog” and you have no other temperament evaluation skills, you may end up with a trainable working dog or you may end up with a Marley. The chances may be in your favor but you are still relying on chance more than knowledge or skill. Meanwhile if you do your homework learning to evaluate temperament instead of just lazily relying on “the breed standard,” you can actually evaluate the individual, not his papers.
Breed bias is the lazy man’s evaluation tool. Sometimes it gets you a good individual, sometimes it gets you a lemon.
If you just learn to evaluate the individual in the first place, you’re better off.[/QUOTE]
If you go into a transaction thinking “it’s a purebred lab it will be a trainable working dog” then you are an idiot.
I disagree that you can evaluate an individual puppy and choose “the one” that isn’t the lemon from a litter of puppies. At 8 weeks it’s too soon to truly know all the nuances of a dog’s personality, although many breeders can help you choose. If that’s your only “tool” you may find that the entire litter were “lemons” FOR YOU. But maybe not for someone else who actually wanted the type of dog that was bred.
Selecting the right breed IS an evaluation tool. You don’t get meat chickens and hope for great layers, or beef cattle and hope for superior milk production. Identifying the right breed(s) (because there are probably several that will meet your criteria) meeting breeders, meeting and evaluating the breeding pair and/or other offspring they’ve produced…all of these tools can help you choose the right litter. And then, you can try to select the puppy from that litter that is best for you. But no matter how hard you try, the cattle dog is not going to act like a clumber spaniel just because you did some temperament testing on it as a puppy.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167198]
so the question would be…the puppies he sires, are they "happy, alert and friendly. Neighter shy nor aggressive? That would be the tale to hear.[/QUOTE]
I do not completely know. I have met second generation offspring in a home environment. They are ok. I have encountered many hand-shy/skittish Paps at regional breed club events. NOT breed characteristic! :no: Majority of performance Paps are polar opposite of skittish :lol:.
He sired an OTCH and a MACH: surely those were not fearful, shut-downy, timid, and irresilient 
I don’t know why/what happened. I don’t know what to think of the breeder, who does not see a problem (barn blind? breed blind?).
For the record, I did not pay a penny and he is short-term co-owned until breeder is done using him as stud (which is now. I have to plan a break in training and trialing for neuter and dental of this older dog. I’m a little scared :sadsmile:).
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167442]
This is not about one being better than the other, but about the chance of getting what you expect, not a surprise.[/QUOTE]
I know exactly what I have with my new dog and the surprises have all been good, or managed with training. My Heeler/JRT mix and Basset were polar opposites at different times in my life, but I had them back to back. Their adult personalities were a surprise and, occasionally, a shock to me but they both turned out to be great, well rounded dogs with proper training. Neither were the typical easy breeds so I had to adapt.
Why can’t this thread be about the importance of doing research and finding a good trainer at the first sign of trouble rather than suggesting more people get a “purpose bred”, purebred puppy that may or may not live up to their expectations of the breed?
You expect a herding breed to catch frisbees and herd things. Some people get tired of it after a few months and try to make them couch potatoes or around-the-block walkers. Unless I’m missing something, the dog in your OP sounds like a bad choice from the beginning and they are just now trying to make it work for her, which ultimately suits them. Classic case of wrong breed for the wrong home and it doesn’t matter if the dog came from a breeder or a ditch on the side of the road.
All of the very well bred field trial dogs my father had growing up well all bat crap crazy. Yeah they were purpose bred and did their jobs well, but all had issues. My mutt off the side of the road? Awesome with no issues and super friendly. I have known many dogs that were pure bred or mutts that had issues. It is really based on the owner and the experiences of the dog.
well first off, the dog in question is not a breed but a mix. Second, she did get a trainer when she found out the dog needed help.
Unless I’m missing something, the dog in your OP sounds like a bad choice from the beginning and they are just now trying to make it work for her, which ultimately suits them. Classic case of wrong breed for the wrong home and it doesn’t matter if the dog came from a breeder or a ditch on the side of the road.
I don’t know if she was a bad choice in the beginning or not. She has issues now and had these people either had an experienced trainer go with them to pick out a puppy or had they gone to a breeder who understood what they needed/wanted, they might have ended up with a different dog.
The point of the original post was that temperament is a chancy thing when you have an unknown history, it can also be chancy with a known history but if you have two parent with solid temperaments, you are less likely to end up with the dog I am dealing with now.
[QUOTE=englishcowgirl;6167724]
All of the very well bred field trial dogs my father had growing up well all bat crap crazy. Yeah they were purpose bred and did their jobs well, but all had issues. [/QUOTE]
What were the issues? (I hope you won’t say that they didn’t make good housepets because they were overly active and needed a lot of exercise.) Because that wouldn’t be an “issue” for someone who wanted a hunting dog.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;6167509]
Maybe. Position in the family structure plays an important role too. I don’t believe there is any conclusive proof to prove your statement.[/QUOTE]
I’m not so sure position in the family overrides genetics. I have 6 year old twins that couldn’t be more opposite and their 8 year old sister is different yet.
We like to say one twin is a mini-me, the other is my husband’s mini-me and the 8 year old must be good karma. :yes: She does fit the mold of oldest child but not much about my kids’ personalities has changed since the day they were born. They are just able to express it more now.
They’ve all had to adapt to their role in the family (like the animals always have) but the basic personality is there. I should mention that neither my husband or I are purebreds. He might have been purpose bred but I certainly was not. :lol:
[QUOTE=englishcowgirl;6167724]
All of the very well bred field trial dogs my father had growing up well all bat crap crazy. Yeah they were purpose bred and did their jobs well, but all had issues. My mutt off the side of the road? Awesome with no issues and super friendly. I have known many dogs that were pure bred or mutts that had issues. It is really based on the owner and the experiences of the dog.[/QUOTE]
so is this post an attempt to say that mixes are better? Or just that you have had good luck with the mixes you’ve had?
Obviously my experience is biased - but a good reputable breeder will be able to tell you if their breed is a good match for your family or not. And since they should know their litters very well, they can also select the puppy that is right for you.
And, alas - my family and I are one of “those” folks who want the “perfect puppy” handed to us. The one that trains itself to come when called; to hunt; to retrieve for a 4 yr old kid respectfully but enthusiastically over and over and over; to not steal the cookie out of the kid’s hand; to get up and apologize for being in the way when the kid trips on them or a toy car bumps into them; to go to the barn and not hunt the cats or chase the horses; and to basically fit into our family like there was a spot made just for them - without much work on our part. So I stack the odds for us as best I can by selecting the right breed and the right breeder. Have we been lucky - absolutely but we also have great dogs. You can flame me for not being a dog person - that’s ok. We love our dogs as family but they are lower on the totem pole of time than kids and horses and so need to be minimal maintenance pets. Just the way it is…
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167729]
well first off, the dog in question is not a breed but a mix. Second, she did get a trainer when she found out the dog needed help.
An Aussie mix, right? I haven’t seen an Aussie mix with a novice owner that I thought was getting what it needed. They are pretty but you usually end up with mostly Aussie traits. Research might have directed her to a different breed type.
If the owner waited until the dog was 18 months old and an antisocial mess, she waited too long! Not a fault of the breed(s), or lack of pedigree.
I don’t know if she was a bad choice in the beginning or not. She has issues now and had these people either had an experienced trainer go with them to pick out a puppy or had they gone to a breeder who understood what they needed/wanted, they might have ended up with a different dog.
Different dog in the litter or different breed? I know I would not be able to keep a high energy dog happy right now so I don’t have one. I had more breeds excluded than included when I started looking last summer. Many people think high energy dogs are fun, until they aren’t anymore, and they only ask for help when things have gotten out of control.
The point of the original post was that temperament is a chancy thing when you have an unknown history, it can also be chancy with a known history but if you have two parent with solid temperaments, you are less likely to end up with the dog I am dealing with now.[/QUOTE]
I think research and knowledge ends up with more dogs in good homes and happy owners, regardless of the breed or where they came from. That’s what I think you should be pushing for (as a trainer?) instead of the supposedly good tempered, $$$$, pedigreed dog that is still a crapshoot if you get it as a puppy.
[QUOTE=CrazyGuineaPigLady;6167886]
I think research and knowledge ends up with more dogs in good homes and happy owners, regardless of the breed or where they came from. That’s what I think you should be pushing for (as a trainer?) instead of the supposedly good tempered, $$$$, pedigreed dog that is still a crapshoot if you get it as a puppy.[/QUOTE]
I don’t discount research at all. But .what. exactly do you research to find out about a mix?
[QUOTE=S1969;6167638]
But no matter how hard you try, the cattle dog is not going to act like a clumber spaniel just because you did some temperament testing on it as a puppy.[/QUOTE]
Did I ever say otherwise?
Temperament testing is temperament TESTING, not temperament MODIFICATION.
Use your skills to find the dog that meets your needs, regardless of what breed it is. If you just want a lab because you want a “typical lab,” and you don’t have any other evaluation criteria than that, you may well end up with a Marley.
I personally don’t really get why so many inexperienced or casual dog handlers want puppies. It is like horses -they are harder to predict how they will turn out than if you see an adult, actively working horse doing X level. Very few people will tell an average amateur to get a weanling and break it themselves eventually, but lots of people go get a puppy confident that they will be able to train it up without a second thought.
I got my mutts as adults and they were what they appeared to be: quiet, friendly, and biddable. No surprises there. I didn’t have to do any “retraining” or “research” because I picked ones that were already exhibiting the personality traits I wanted.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167917]
I don’t discount research at all. But .what. exactly do you research to find out about a mix?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, if you want a quiet lap dog you sit down in the shelter and wait for one to come sit quietly by you. I wanted a quiet lap dog so I picked the one that behaved like a quiet lap dog. Calmness was an absolute top priority for me so the second she lay down in my lap with everyone else running around like a loony I was sold.
If you want one that is active with an intense play drive, bring a stick and shake it around and see who jumps up and down and goes nuts.
If you want one that doesn’t need a huge correction, tell one to stop doing something and see if the half halt goes through or if you have to step it up a notch. If you want one that focuses on something and never “lets go,” see how “big” you can get without distracting him from whatever he is doing.
All of the literature in the world about purebreds won’t give you the answer to these questions for the individual.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6167917]
I don’t discount research at all. But .what. exactly do you research to find out about a mix?[/QUOTE]
Well, if it’s mother is an Aussie, you might want to check out what that would bring to the table. If the father was a Plott Hound (i.e) you have to factor that in, also. A Puggle will have some Beagle and some Pug traits. A Lab mix will likely be black, enjoy swimming and friendly. So on and so on with good and bad points.
They don’t get dumped into some big mixing bowl of all the breeds just because they got crossed. If the dog resembles a duck, someone tells you it is a duck cross, it quacks and swims like a duck, you can believe it will behave like a duck when it grows up. Don’t get a duck cross if you don’t want to deal with a certain amount of duck behavior.
