And this is why getting a dog from a breeder...

[hastyreply]

I worked with a herding clinician who occasionally bred his dogs to outside females for a pup. When asked which pup he wanted, his reply was invariably “which ever pup is left, I wouldn’t have breed my dog to yours if I didn’t believe in the cross and I know my dogs so well that I can train any of them to work”. It may sound arrogant but he’d been breeding his line of dogs for 60 years and knew what he was getting. He’s passed away now and I miss working him.

Few people have that confidence, experience and knowledge of their breed like he did.

[Arizona_DQ]

[QUOTE=My2cents;6162635]
All three of my dogs have been mixed breed rescues. Every one of them have been awesome dogs. Even my neighbor boasts to other neighbors that all of my dogs are wonderful. My other neighbor researched and researched and bought a $2000 (yes, you read that correctly) miniature dachshund pup, and planned to breed her. She is the most fear aggressive dog I’ve ever met. When the neighbor first got her, she carried her over to let me meet her. I did the direct look into her eyes test and not only did she not look away, she was growling and teeth baring AT 8 WEEKS OLD. When I asked the neighbor why they picked this pup over all the other ones, they said it was because she was 'soo feisty and “interactive” '. Sure enough fast forward a year and the groomer and vet told the owner that she would NOT make a good breeding candidate and so she was spayed. She’s still a witch to this day. I blame the breeder for letting inexperienced people buy such a dog. But at least they didn’t let her make any more devil spawn like the mother.[/QUOTE]

This dog did not come from a reputable breeder… that is quite obvious…Just because it came with a big price tag does not mean that the breeder was any good. Just google on “dachshunds for sale” and you can buy any size, any color or pattern and pay big bucks, NOT from a reputable breeder! :no::no:

[S1969]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6167931]
I don’t know, if you want a quiet lap dog you sit down in the shelter and wait for one to come sit quietly by you. I wanted a quiet lap dog so I picked the one that behaved like a quiet lap dog. Calmness was an absolute top priority for me so the second she lay down in my lap with everyone else running around like a loony I was sold.

If you want one that is active with an intense play drive, bring a stick and shake it around and see who jumps up and down and goes nuts.

If you want one that doesn’t need a huge correction, tell one to stop doing something and see if the half halt goes through or if you have to step it up a notch. If you want one that focuses on something and never “lets go,” see how “big” you can get without distracting him from whatever he is doing.

All of the literature in the world about purebreds won’t give you the answer to these questions for the individual.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know, I’d hardly expect to see any dog’s true temperament in a shelter. Maybe in a foster care situation, and that would give you a good chance to see the dog’s current temperament and whether it is a good match for you.

I think people want puppies for a lot of reasons. Of course they are cute, and who doesn’t love that? But getting a dog from a shelter is certainly no guarantee of a good temperament. And most definitely no guarantee that the dog will have had the type of “upbringing” I think is essential in a good dog, and that needs (in my opinion) to be started at a young age – proper socialization, health and nutrition, appropriate training. You might find a dog who has had all of these, or the total opposite - poor/no socialization, poor/no training or abuse, poor health or congenital health problems, and in a shelter situation you often don’t know until you get it home.

Of course some dogs are just as they seem. But for me, I want more of a guarantee that what I will get is what I expect. For what it’s worth, though, we went nearly 10 years between our current show dog and the last dog. It definitely wasn’t an impulse purchase…

[Kryswyn]

If you go to a shelter you will no doubt see dogs of all kinds of temperments. Jack Russells as an example do very poorly in shelters if left there long term. But if you go you will certainly find that some dogs are calmer than others. Not all lose their minds, and a dog that is calm in a shelter may show joy once he’s home, but still will have a comparably calmer demeanor.

[NRB]

pfftt I deleted b/c I was thinking this thread was about something else… my oops.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=S1969;6168176]
I don’t know, I’d hardly expect to see any dog’s true temperament in a shelter. Maybe in a foster care situation, and that would give you a good chance to see the dog’s current temperament and whether it is a good match for you.

I think people want puppies for a lot of reasons. Of course they are cute, and who doesn’t love that? But getting a dog from a shelter is certainly no guarantee of a good temperament. And most definitely no guarantee that the dog will have had the type of “upbringing” I think is essential in a good dog, and that needs (in my opinion) to be started at a young age – proper socialization, health and nutrition, appropriate training. You might find a dog who has had all of these, or the total opposite - poor/no socialization, poor/no training or abuse, poor health or congenital health problems, and in a shelter situation you often don’t know until you get it home.

Of course some dogs are just as they seem. But for me, I want more of a guarantee that what I will get is what I expect. For what it’s worth, though, we went nearly 10 years between our current show dog and the last dog. It definitely wasn’t an impulse purchase… :)[/QUOTE]

So what exactly are you trying to get across here?
That everyone else should only buy from a breeder every ten years and that getting an adult dog is a bad idea?
Oh, and people who think labs are generally trainable working dogs are “idiots”? (Why? Are labs actually non-trainable non-working dogs? Did I miss something?)

I am simply saying that I think it is best to evaluate each dog as an individual regardless of breed. If it is a good individual purebred with the characteristics a prospective owner is looking for then it is a good individual purebred with the characteristics the prospective owner is looking for. Same goes for mutts. What is so wrong with that?

[cloudyandcallie]

@LauraKY;6162596

Seriously? Based on one example? I hope you neuter/spay whatever you get. The rest of us will continue to support rescues. I will never buy another dog. Love my three rescues! Do they have personality quirks? Sure they do. But, I love them all the same. So did my two purpose bred dogs. So what?

And exactly what was the point of your post? To discourage others from adopting pets?

There are a lot of unethical breeders of purebred dogs out there! Including aussie breeders who have my breeder’s books on their coffee tables.

If you want a guaranteed perfect puppy, go to a breeder like mine, Las Rocosa Aussies. If you want a crap shoot, go to most of the breeders who are copy cats. I’ve seen it personally in my own rescue work in Atlanta. Breeders breeding dogs with hip problems because they want to sell puppies.

Shelter dogs and dogs off the street are great. I’ve had some great, well-adjusted, wonderful mixed breed dogs (with no aussie in them, altho I’m definitely an aussie person.) like Raleigh, run over and at the Cobb pound on death row (lived 14 yrs with me) and Chadwick, found at a murder scene (lived 11 yrs with me) and Quincy, run over in rural GA swampland in front of me (lived 15 yrs with me) and all fit in with my aussies and all were great.

It’s fairly easy to determine if a dog is going to fit in with your family or not. Most rescues I’ve dealth with allow trial visits. Fearful dogs can be turned around if they are put in a pack with well adjusted dogs. It requires patience.

If a person cannot ascertain if a shelter dog is timid or fearful or outgoing or whatever, she should take someone with her who knows dogs and their personalities. It’s a lot like choosing a horse. And it’s not rocket science.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6168224]
So what exactly are you trying to get across here?
That everyone else should only buy from a breeder every ten years and that getting an adult dog is a bad idea?
Oh, and people who think labs are generally trainable working dogs are “idiots”? (Why? Are labs actually non-trainable non-working dogs? Did I miss something?)

I am simply saying that I think it is best to evaluate each dog as an individual regardless of breed. If it is a good individual purebred with the characteristics a prospective owner is looking for then it is a good individual purebred with the characteristics the prospective owner is looking for. Same goes for mutts. What is so wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

You asked why people want puppies. I’m simply explaining why many people want puppies.

And the “idiot” comment is the idea that all “purebred labs” are anything like the breed standard. A “purebred lab” is no guarantee of anything - temperament, quality, health…it’s just a registry. You can breed the two worst labs in the world and the puppies will still be “purebred”.

I think evaluating a dog as an individual is a great idea. Just not very easy to do with an 8 week old puppy. Which is why you have to rely on your homework and the breeder, especially if you want a puppy.

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;6162596]
Seriously? Based on one example? I hope you neuter/spay whatever you get. The rest of us will continue to support rescues. I will never buy another dog. Love my three rescues! Do they have personality quirks? Sure they do. But, I love them all the same. So did my two purpose bred dogs. So what?

And exactly what was the point of your post? To discourage others from adopting pets?[/QUOTE]

And just to add to this post…Getting a breeder dog doesn’t exempt you from behavioral problems. I have one here that was bought from a breeder and I spent a good bit of two years getting him over fear aggression issues. And no, it wasn’t a backyard breeder.

[fivehorses]

OK, I am adding a link to my thread about the puppies I am finding abandoned or about to be here in SC.

I would love to find them good homes, first litter, can describe these pups and kind of homes they’d thrive in.
2nd litter, don’t know that much about them, but they will be ready to go end of march.

Please look at my thread.
I am sorry, but time is limited. If interested(seriously), I will respond to you.

I AM HOPING that those of you dog rescue knowledgable will help me.
thanks
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343491

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=S1969;6167098]
How many breeders do you know? I think that’s a fair question. I know a good handful quite well, I know of a bunch more by reputation. When you say “most don’t” - who are these people? 1 person? 10 breeders you KNOW? Or just a general idea that breeders only select for angle and coat? Most breeds were developed with a purpose - even if it was only to keep little old lady’s laps warm. Obviously some with a very specific purpose, and others with a wider purpose (e.g. the german hunting dogs v. the british hunting dogs…) But the standards for “temperament” aren’t an “OUT” they are the standard. Calling them an “excuse for being a companion animal” suggests that you don’t understand the purpose of the standard.[/QUOTE]

I’ve participated in 2 dog sports in a limited way (I trained for them in classes and attended competitions as a spectator/assistant for a friend who did own and compete dogs) I didn’t compete as my dogs were either not registered or not purebred. So I have known quite a few breeders who were what you would call good breeders, and I’ve found them to be mostly pleasant people who loved their dogs and believed they were doing good work by working to produce correct specimens of their breed. I have not found them to be sticklers for temperament. To be fair, I’m not using “temperament” as breeders often do, to mean “won’t pee itself in fear when encountering strangers, or bite the living shit out of the first person who doesn’t genuflect to it.” To me, temperament means it can live in human society without major maintenance issues. A dog-aggressive pit bull, human-aggressive Fila, neurotic Cocker or hysterical toy breed are all major maintenance issues. Yet all are so common as to be stereotypes. Breeders and their standards are clearly not doing much to produce strong companion candidates. I recognize that breeds vary and what’s high maintenance for some is fine for others - I don’t mind my 0-60 collie types, but others can’t stand a dog that can’t sit still. But there’s a difference between a dog who’s naturally, genetically energetic and one who’s hyper. My wild child dogs have never eaten through a solid wood door, for example, or jumped out of a moving car. But when a good breeder approaches a potential breeding, how many of them really give equal weight to temperament over conformation? Good breeders won’t reproduce awful temperaments - and they’re harsh about those who will - but that doesn’t mean they’ll sacrifice ear set or shoulder angle for a really nice, biddable temperament.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=vacation1;6168674]
To me, temperament means it can live in human society without major maintenance issues. A dog-aggressive pit bull, human-aggressive Fila, neurotic Cocker or hysterical toy breed are all major maintenance issues. Yet all are so common as to be stereotypes. Breeders and their standards are clearly not doing much to produce strong companion candidates.[/QUOTE]

But a neurotic Cocker Spaniel is NOT the breed standard, and that stereotype is actually blamed on inexperienced/backyard breeders (not show breeders) who bred this cute dog to market to American families as a pet. A cocker should be: Above all, he must be free and merry, sound, well balanced throughout and in action show a keen inclination to work. Equable in temperament with no suggestion of timidity. I don’t actually know anyone who owns cocker spaniels, but I wouldn’t assume that everyone who has one has one that was well-bred.

Pit bulls aren’t actually an AKC recognized breed. I don’t know if they have a standard for temperament, but they certainly weren’t developed to be “companions”. Of course that does not mean they should be dog aggressive either, but you can’t expect to find a street-bred pit bull and have any guarantee of it being a good companion dog. Many are, though.

I don’t even know what a Fila is…not an AKC recognized breed so I don’t know if it has a standard for temperament.

Hysterical toy breeds…again, it’s such a sterotype. Are these all well-bred specimens? My dog’s breeder has two papillons that are anything but hysterical; they are so sweet, easy and fun that they are exactly the opposite. My farrier has a Frenchie that is not hysterical. But I was at my vet’s office not long ago and flipped through a Dog Fancy magazine. There was an ad in the back for a toy mix (designer dog) that we couldn’t even figure out what the two breeds were (it had one of those names like Peke-Poo or something…but two dog savvy people still couldn’t figure it out.) Maybe these are the breeders who are producing all the hysterical toy dogs?

I know I don’t have tons of experience with every breed, but I go to a lot of dog shows and see a ton of well-behaved dogs in every breed. Clearly they aren’t all human/dog aggressive, neurotic or hysterical, or they couldn’t stand in a building with 1800 other dogs and look happy. Maybe they don’t all make ideal pets with biddable temperaments, but then again, they aren’t all supposed to be that way.

I know a lot of people with “purebred” pets that are not well-bred. In fact, probably most of the purebred pets that I know would be from questionable breeders (backyard or puppy mill). I think many of these pets are what colors the judgement of other people about purebred dogs.

[S1969]

OK, just got this from Wikipedia:

[I]More than any other breed, temperament is given great emphasis in the Fila Brasileiro standard. The breed is known for its courage, faithfulness to family, determination, self confidence and “colhões” (spite). The Fila is gentle with family children and very docile with its owner, always seeking his company. The Fila Brasileiro is an excellent estate guardian. It does not hide its dislike towards strangers. This aversion, not forward aggression, is known as ojeriza.

The breed is renowned for their faithfulness to family and friends, but this is not a breed for everyone. The Fila needs a confident, experienced, savvy owner who is aware of the breed’s innate tendencies. Filas are not well suited to busy households which entertain many guests, as they do not generally enjoy having guest in their home. The Fila is a natural guardian breed.

Filas bond strongly with their immediate families and show extreme loyalty and protectiveness towards them. They live to protect their loved ones, including children and other pets. Very few will accept strangers. Many Filas never tolerate any stranger in their home. Perhaps because of their aversion towards strangers, they are excellent family dogs, devoted to the children in their family.[/I]

I would say that there is a very, very fine line between “human agressive” and actually matching the breed standard exactly. This is DEFINITELY not a companion animal!

[LauraKY]

@S1969;6168946

But a neurotic Cocker Spaniel is NOT the breed standard, and that stereotype is actually blamed on inexperienced/backyard breeders (not show breeders) who bred this cute dog to market to American families as a pet. A cocker should be: Above all, he must be free and merry, sound, well balanced throughout and in action show a keen inclination to work. Equable in temperament with no suggestion of timidity. I don’t actually know anyone who owns cocker spaniels, but I wouldn’t assume that everyone who has one has one that was well-bred.

I owned a well bred cocker. You have to know and understand the general traits of the breed. Cockers must be well socialized (of course all dogs should). I brought mine home at 8 weeks and for at least a month she went everywhere with me and was exposed to as many different situations and people as possible. She was good with kids, horses, wheelchairs, etc. My parents lived in assisted living and we visited every other day. Everyone loved her!

[Brookes]

We test our puppies according to the Guide Dogs for the Blind standards, Canine Companions also test their puppies using that same guideline. Each pup is tested then they are given a grade so to speak. Does this pup seem bold and outgoing? Does this one seem shy and reserved? etc. etc.

Bold outgoing pups usually end up in the show ring or are placed with a family that wants an energetic pet. Shy pups are placed very very carefully with a family that will guide the pup and help it deal with it’s environment.

I have an Irish Setter bitch that was placed with us by another breeder to make sure she had a great life. She was “soft” from the minute she hit the ground. This little girl would never approach a stranger during her testing. She would sit back and watch the goings on. Every other pup in the litter would charge out of the kennel to greet you. She would just sit there.

The breeder knew that she would need a very special home with folks that knew how to deal with her to keep her from becoming fear aggressive. This is what a responsible breeder does. We have had her for 8 years and she has been a wonderful addition to our family. However she is till untrusting of strangers and will not approach until one of the other dogs has done so first. Sometimes things happen during a breeding and you get a little pup that just doesn’t meet the breed standard. It is the breeder’s responsibility to make sure that the pup is placed properly in a home with owners that have experience and can handle any issues that may arise.

Back yard breeders do not test their puppies and adopt them out to anyone with a checkbook! We responsible breeders do the opposite.

Please ask your potential breeders if they use these guidelines to test their pups. It is a great way to get an idea of the type of pup you are getting!

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;6169240]
I owned a well bred cocker. You have to know and understand the general traits of the breed. Cockers must be well socialized (of course all dogs should). I brought mine home at 8 weeks and for at least a month she went everywhere with me and was exposed to as many different situations and people as possible. She was good with kids, horses, wheelchairs, etc. My parents lived in assisted living and we visited every other day. Everyone loved her![/QUOTE]

Amen! I grew up with Cocker Spaniels (all were ex show dogs or at a minimum from quality AKC CH lines). Our last one was a companion only parti because she finished out below standard. She was the HAPPIEST dog in the world. We joked she was luck she didn’t get arthritis in her rear end from wagging her little nub 24/7 ;). Cocker Spaniels are puppies for life. They are sweet, affectionate, outgoing, and love everyone. Aggressive and neurotic cocker spaniels are absolutely not breed standard. They are the product of poor breeding and improper socialization.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;6169602]
Amen! I grew up with Cocker Spaniels (all were ex show dogs or at a minimum from quality AKC CH lines). Our last one was a companion only parti because she finished out below standard. She was the HAPPIEST dog in the world. We joked she was luck she didn’t get arthritis in her rear end from wagging her little nub 24/7 ;). Cocker Spaniels are puppies for life. They are sweet, affectionate, outgoing, and love everyone. Aggressive and neurotic cocker spaniels are absolutely not breed standard. They are the product of poor breeding and improper socialization.[/QUOTE]

They are the happiest dogs, aren’t they? Little wiggle butts. See, now you have me wishing for another cocker.

[allintexas]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6167931]
I don’t know, if you want a quiet lap dog you sit down in the shelter and wait for one to come sit quietly by you. I wanted a quiet lap dog so I picked the one that behaved like a quiet lap dog. Calmness was an absolute top priority for me so the second she lay down in my lap with everyone else running around like a loony I was sold.

If you want one that is active with an intense play drive, bring a stick and shake it around and see who jumps up and down and goes nuts.

If you want one that doesn’t need a huge correction, tell one to stop doing something and see if the half halt goes through or if you have to step it up a notch. If you want one that focuses on something and never “lets go,” see how “big” you can get without distracting him from whatever he is doing.

All of the literature in the world about purebreds won’t give you the answer to these questions for the individual.[/QUOTE]

This is so true! I was smiling when a trainer that I know said he picked his newest dog at the shelter by walking down the aisle and picking the only one not barking, because he wanted a quiet dog. And she is quiet! and very sweet.

It’s not really rocket science to find the dog you want. If you are looking for a pet/companion, a dog that is over 6 months to a year will be more likely to display its temperament than a puppy, purebred or otherwise.

I’ve had dogs from breeders and mutts from rescues, and much preferred the mutts so far. Not to mention I would be disturbed to pay someone to breed dogs when so many are euthanized every year.

[BoldChance]

I really think there’s nothing set in stone.

Well…when I decided to get my first pup (my first “own dog” ever) I new I wanted a border collie. And I wanted to try herding. I knew this, so I knew I wanted a purpose bred dog.

So when I was able to have a dog, I found a litter of pups bred locally. The breeder turned out to be someone I knew in passing. We’re now good friends.

And, incidentally, my lovely (but very strong willed) 17 month old female’s littermate brother is coming to live with us next weekend. If it works out, it’s permanent, if it doesn’t, he’s with us until we (the breeder, and I will help) rehome him. His owner, who has put tons of work and time into him (resulting in a very, very well trained and nice dog) can no longer keep him. (for very valid reasons. Sometimes, life throws stuff at you that simply cannot be changed). She’s made the difficult decision to surrender him back to his breeder, and I volunteered to take him as my girl has been lonely since the dogs I babysat for the winter have gone home.

Had he wound up in a “rescue” - he absolutely would have been a treasure find that I would have adopted. But he never made it there because his breeder cared and is responsible enough to take him back and make sure he is placed privately.

And I have to admit, while I feel very bad for the owner, who does not want to surrender…I am pretty excited about the opportunity to take him.

I don’t think I’d look at a shelter first for a purpose bred dog (although I scour our local shelter’s site in case a full border comes up cause, hey, I’d take a chance), but I would absolutely look at one for a general pet. And when the guy I’m seeing decides to get his own dog, well, we’ll look at a shelter for him, probably.

I would look at border rescues in a heartbeat if we had a localish one. Or I’d buy from a solid, reputable breeder…well vetted in advance.

I think at the end of the day, what works for one person won’t work for another, and there’s always workarounds and exceptions.

My friend with sheep and borders, who got me so fascinated with it all, was given a border from the shelter to assess… and then the shelter didn’t bother contacting her to find out how the dog did or take it back or anything… basically she just got given the dog. She worked well as a pet for her husband and a basic working dog.

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong. Either way, a person needs to be responsible in their selection of dog, be it from a breeder OR a shelter. (and if from a breeder, responsible in selection thereof. I would recommend mine in a heartbeat, because she stands by her pups 100%)

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=S1969;6163497]
Seriously? I mean, really, do you have any experience or is this just your own thoughts?

I can tell you about my dog’s litter – by 8 weeks the puppies have been eating solid food for 3+ weeks and the mom won’t stay with them for long and doesn’t let them nurse anymore. And 7 eight week old puppies turn into a lot of scrappy fights…I’m not sure that is the type of socialization you want your puppy to learn!

I am sure this differs for many breeds but it’s very common for puppies to go home at 8 weeks. Some breeders keep them for a few weeks longer but they are not with their mommies anymore! Many breeders keep them longer to start them on house training and crate training.[/QUOTE]

No…8 weeks is far too young. You can’t possibly determine a dog’s conformation, personality and possible health issues that young. As someone else mentioned, socialization skills would be lacking.

My mother was a fairly well-known breeder back in the days. She MIGHT let a puppy go at 12 weeks, but 4 months was usually the earliest she’d sell one. Dogs with the conformation for a possible show career were usually kept until about 6 months. Longer than some breeders keep one, sure. But she never, ever had a complaint about a puppy she sold and never had one returned, either.