And this is why getting a dog from a breeder...

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;6178250]
No…8 weeks is far too young. You can’t possibly determine a dog’s conformation, personality and possible health issues that young. As someone else mentioned, socialization skills would be lacking.

My mother was a fairly well-known breeder back in the days. She MIGHT let a puppy go at 12 weeks, but 4 months was usually the earliest she’d sell one. Dogs with the conformation for a possible show career were usually kept until about 6 months. Longer than some breeders keep one, sure. But she never, ever had a complaint about a puppy she sold and never had one returned, either.[/QUOTE]

Different breeders do different things, and perhaps it also depends on the breed and the size of the litter, but sending puppies home at 8 weeks is not uncommon at all.

The social skills a puppy would learn in a litter at 8 weeks to 4 months are very different than the ones they will learn in a home with a human family. Many behaviorist believe that dogs develop much of their learning/expectations and associations before the 4 months of age. Even the best breeder in the world isn’t going to be able to properly socialize 8 puppies until 4-6 months the same way a human family can. So it would definitely depend on your priorities. Keeping a possible show dog until it is 6 months old is very often something that breeders do when they think they have a fantastic show dog (they will keep it for themselves…and if not, they will find it another home). But again, so much depends on the breeding, size of litter, etc. Things would be very different if you had two chihuahua puppies versus 8 brittanys.

I do agree that you can’t know a puppies’ conformation at that age, though, and you probably can’t know about congenital health issues. (Although I doubt you know much more about their health at 4 months than you do at 8 weeks…certainly not things like hips/elbows/eyes, heart). That’s why you have to be careful where you get your puppy! Many breeders (mine included) will take a puppy back if you wanted a show dog and it has a disqualification (e.g. size) and/or would guarantee you a puppy from the next litter; and also has a health guarantee. But I think most people realize that nothing is guaranteed when it comes to genetics. (Speaking from someone who has a dog that is 3+ inches over the breed standard.)

So, to each their own. I’d be curious to hear at what age other breeders let their puppies go home.

[mp]

[QUOTE=BoldChance;6178098]

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong. Either way, a person needs to be responsible in their selection of dog, be it from a breeder OR a shelter. [/QUOTE]

Agree. I’ve been on both sides of the deal – we got our border collie from one of the top working breeders in the US. We really knew nothing, but that dog was everything we could have hoped for. Smart, handsome, friendly and sweet as he could be. A little OCD, esp. when it came to livestock, but that’s not too unusual with a “purpose” bred BC.

ETA – we got that dog when he was 7 weeks old. His outgoing, sweet personality was apparent from day 1 and it never changed.

Our other dog is a mutt (looks like an Australian cattle dog mix). She is a good dog, too. Just not one I would have chosen. She was dumped as a pup by the side of the road and our renters picked her up. She became ours when renter left. Totally different from the BC in every way. Not other dog friendly. Goes after cats and has an unrelenting prey instinct. Not my kind of dog. But she has her good points and she adores my husband.

When we get our next collie, I will check our local BC rescue first. IF that doesn’t work, I’ll try the shelter for a BC mix. Since have some experience with the breed, I think we have a good chance of getting the kind of a dog we’d like. A breeder will be my last choice. Not because I have anything against them. I just would like to give a “recycled” dog a chance first.

[Kyzteke]

@threedogpack;6162562

is sometimes a really good idea.

I had a new client this morning who adopted an Australian Shepherd X as a puppy about 12 months ago, as a weaned puppy.

She’s a very fearful dog, and has developed some unsavory behavior(s).

The fear isn’t learned behavior, it comes too quick and is too natural for her. I’m certain she’s genetically fearful so there is going to be a top limit to what she can learn and how well she will do over time.

Lucky for her, she has an owner who is quick to catch on, and she lives with at least one child (teen) who loves her enough and is smart enough to train through and around some of the behaviors.

Also lucky for her, she’s a smart dog and can (when not scared out of her gourd) think through issues.

All of this to say, she’s a prime example of why a purpose bred dog, bred for a strong, steady temperament is what I go for instead of a randomly bred dog. I’m glad there are people who want to adopt rescues…but for me, I want a purpose bred dog.

This one is lucky, she’s got owners who love her enough to work with her.

I need to go feed, so no time to read the whole thread, but I’m sure many others have pointed out that plenty of dogs from “breeders” have fear issues, aggression issues, health issues…all kinds of issues, for that matter. The fact the dog is a PB means nothing.

It is the very, very, VERY rare breeder who will actually “cull” (as in put down) the pups with this behavior. At best they might spay/neuter the animal, but that’s about all.

And, of course, many of the behaviors don’t even present till the dog is 12-16 weeks old (or older), so the breeder may not ever be tracking those dogs.

I know I watched an all day Cesar Millan “Dog Whisperer” fest, and the problem dogs were equally divided between those from PB breeders and those who were adopted from the shelter or otherwise “rescued”.

I’ve had two overly fearful dogs in my life – one was from a PB breeder and one was rescued from the shelter…so I really don’t see much of a connection.

[Kyzteke]

@S1969;6178307

Different breeders do different things, and perhaps it also depends on the breed and the size of the litter, but sending puppies home at 8 weeks is not uncommon at all.

I do agree that you can’t know a puppies’ conformation at that age, though, and you probably can’t know about congenital health issues. (Although I doubt you know much more about their health at 4 months than you do at 8 weeks…certainly not things like hips/elbows/eyes, heart). That’s why you have to be careful where you get your puppy! Many breeders (mine included) will take a puppy back if you wanted a show dog and it has a disqualification (e.g. size) and/or would guarantee you a puppy from the next litter; and also has a health guarantee. But I think most people realize that nothing is guaranteed when it comes to genetics. (Speaking from someone who has a dog that is 3+ inches over the breed standard.)

So, to each their own. I’d be curious to hear at what age other breeders let their puppies go home.

Any time I was shopping for a REALLY high quality PB (as in a “show” pup vs a “pet quality” pup) no breeder was willing to part with their pups till they were 12 wks old at least (the exception would be if a pup was born with a color or markings that would be a real disadvantage in the ring).

But in all cases I was shopping with top breeders who had a record of finishing ALL their stock, not just one or two.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;6178703]
Any time I was shopping for a REALLY high quality PB (as in a “show” pup vs a “pet quality” pup) no breeder was willing to part with their pups till they were 12 wks old at least (the exception would be if a pup was born with a color or markings that would be a real disadvantage in the ring).

But in all cases I was shopping with top breeders who had a record of finishing ALL their stock, not just one or two.[/QUOTE]

Why is that? Did they think they could tell which ones were show quality at 12 weeks v. 8? (Racking my brain on what PB stands for…not PBGV?)

I am sure things differ for all breeds; I think I recall my breeder saying that a snapshot at 8 weeks gives you a better guess than at 6 or 12 weeks because of how they grow, but still, until they are more mature you can’t always tell the phenomenal ones from the average “show quality” ones. Obviously you can sometimes tell a disqualification at an early age, but not something like size, even at 12 weeks.

[Kyzteke]

@S1969;6178780

Why is that? Did they think they could tell which ones were show quality at 12 weeks v. 8? (Racking my brain on what PB stands for…not PBGV?)

I am sure things differ for all breeds; I think I recall my breeder saying that a snapshot at 8 weeks gives you a better guess than at 6 or 12 weeks because of how they grow, but still, until they are more mature you can’t always tell the phenomenal ones from the average “show quality” ones. Obviously you can sometimes tell a disqualification at an early age, but not something like size, even at 12 weeks.

Sorry: PB= pure bred.

Most of the top breeders I talked to said they can tell conformation & gaits better when the pup is at least 12 weeks old…although of course, just like we horse breeders, sometimes they are wrong.

I’ve known several folks who got “pet quality” pups that turned out good enough to finish and plenty of breeders who ended up selling the best pup in the litter once it was 6-8 mos and didn’t turn out to be quite as good as they thought it would.

When I was raising Bull Terriers I sold a male black brindle in one litter for $900 (this was in 1980, so that was a pretty steep price back then) because he looked good AND it was a rare color. But it turned out the white female with the black eye patch was the real winner – she got her Championship at only 18 mos, and if you know Bullies, that’s very early for a bitch.

[threedogpack]

@Kyzteke;6178692

I need to go feed, so no time to read the whole thread, but I’m sure many others have pointed out that plenty of dogs from “breeders” have fear issues, aggression issues, health issues…all kinds of issues, for that matter. The fact the dog is a PB means nothing.

you breed right? JRT’s? So if it means nothing, why not just toss one of your girls outside and let the matings with what ever dog comes along happen?

You don’t do that I’d bet, and I’d bet you don’t because you are looking for particular traits…which come from restricted breeding(s).

I have not said and will not say that there are not fearful purebreds, BUT if you have a careful breeder…they will not breed a fearful dog. With that in mind, I have a better chance of getting a solid, steady temperament with breed characteristics.

[Kyzteke]

@threedogpack;6179478

you breed right? JRT’s? So if it means nothing, why not just toss one of your girls outside and let the matings with what ever dog comes along happen?

You don’t do that I’d bet, and I’d bet you don’t because you are looking for particular traits…which come from restricted breeding(s).

I have not said and will not say that there are not fearful purebreds, BUT if you have a careful breeder…they will not breed a fearful dog. With that in mind, I have a better chance of getting a solid, steady temperament with breed characteristics.

Actually, no. I haven’t bred a dog in almost 30 yrs. All of my dogs have either been purchased from “backyard” breeders or been adopted from the shelter/pound (which basically is just like buying the product produced by just throwing a bitch out to breed with any dog that comes along).

My JRT (PB) had issues, as did my GSD. Both were PBs purchased from breeders. My Pit/Hound cross (from the shelter) also had issues. The best balanced dog I’ve ever owned I paid $25 for (!) and was produced pretty much how you say – the (Rottie/Shep/Pit) bitch kept getting nailed by the neighbors Blue Heeler.

I am fairly convinced that buying from a breeder isn’t going to get you any better dog that going to the shelter, and in some (strictly) health areas, the PB might actually be worse.

Based on my 50 some years of dog owner ship, I think that, when it comes to temperament, 90% of it is in the training and raising of a pup…NOT the breeding.