Andalusians & Lusitanos for dressage

[nlk]

Andalusians and Lusitanos when breed and broke correctly are the what the dressage horse is. They were the original ones that were used in baroque dressage. There are some lines out there there that move “like sewing machines on speed” like one of the first posters said but that is not the majority.

The reason that they are not more popular in dressage (at least here in U.S. and most European countries (and forgive me if I’m repeating here I didn’t read the whole thread)) is that they are rare and until recently they were very hard to find in the U.S. also in a lot of Europe they have their own breeds that they use.

As far as what an Andalusians temperment is I haven’t worked with a more beautiful minded horse (I have handled most breeds in my line of work). They have an amazing work ethic are for the most part smooth and easy to ride (there are some lines and horse out there that are not just like every breed) they have natural push from behind and natural extension through the shoulder which makes it easy for them to preform to the high levels of competition.

They are smaller then your typical WB (obviously) which is another reason I believe that they are not more popular. in face of the WB revolution they don’t quit measure up.

Also consider that Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Lipazzans all come from the same lines and are generally the same breed. They are from different parts of the Iberian peninsula but you will find that they are all PRE horses.

With this in mind the highest level of dressage riding is the Spanish Riding School and what do they use and train as their mounts?

If you’re interested in some lines and breeders feel free to contact me!

[nlk]

Oh and to the comment about Spanish riders using their national horses in competition I will have to look back but at least one Spanish rider medaled on an adalusian in one of the recent Olympics! Again I will have to check the year.

[Ajierene]

I find it interesting that you mention the great temperment of the baroque horses. In my search for a stallion to breed my mare to, I found that all Andalusions were listed as being ‘very tempermental’, or close to it, on the temperment scale. I am looking for a stallion with a great temperment and get the impression a bad temperment is something that these types of horses have and pass on.

Perhaps it is like the Arabians, where intelligence is often mistaken with bad temperment? I am not willing to find out through a first foal, though.

[MistyBlue]

A “temperamental” Andie probably isn’t going to be like a temperamental other breed. Most male Andies are kept stallions…if they were difficult or temperamental they’d be mostly gelded. :winkgrin: Even ones not used for breeding are kept intact as often as they’re gelded due to the easy temperaments and work ethics they have. I was looking for an Andie or Lusitano for a while…I had the hardest darned time finding geldings. Or mares for that matter. Mares aren’t considered riding horses in many of the countries that have a lot of Andie/Lusi breeding farms. I got laughed at a few times inquiring about mares for riding when calling places in Brazil, LOL!
Lusitanos are supposedly a bit more “hot” than Andies in general, more bold is how a few breeders termed it.
But I’ve known a handful or two of Andies and every single one has had one solid brain on it. Nothing I’d call even remotely temperamental…the ones I knew/know make the average QH seem flighty. :winkgrin:

[pintopiaffe]

Leviton and Evento have both made it to the Olympics, I’d say that’s ‘top competition.’ There certainly are more, (a British rider was doing GP for a long time on an Iberian) those are just the two I recall off the top of my head.

Relempago went to Beijing for Austrailia, his sire, Luar, was the first Lusitano to go to the Pan Ams.

They’re not everyone’s cuppa, but neither are WBs. I’m not saying Baroques are The Way, The Truth and the Only Way To GP… why does it have to work in reverse??? Wb’s aren’t always either. Sometimes a little Connemara cross is. <shrugs>

[nlk]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3811881]
I find it interesting that you mention the great temperment of the baroque horses. In my search for a stallion to breed my mare to, I found that all Andalusions were listed as being ‘very tempermental’, or close to it, on the temperment scale. I am looking for a stallion with a great temperment and get the impression a bad temperment is something that these types of horses have and pass on.

Perhaps it is like the Arabians, where intelligence is often mistaken with bad temperment? I am not willing to find out through a first foal, though.[/QUOTE]

WOW! I must say that I have trained them and dealt with a lot of different breeders and owners during that time and NO one ever said anything like that! In fact I have never heard another train who has worked with them speak bad of them either.

I find that they are nothing like Arabians (I have dealt with them too!). Intelligent yes but not temperamental on a general scale. I do know one line in particular that could be called that. The sire was originally a touring lipizzan stallion when the owner bought him and he was not one to “Man handle” because he would give you hell if you did, and all his off spring were like this as well, confrontational to bad handling but if you handled them like every other horse in the barn they were fine (some of the staff felt they needed to beat the horses in to submission that stopped when I was there and I never had another problem The owner didn’t realize what was happening!) I never had a problem with any of these horses! I think there are lines like that in every breed though!

They love to please anything you ask of them they try. If you ever decide to give it a try I know some great lines!

Honestly my goal is to have one, one day for a sport horse and a stallion to boot I feel in love with them!

[nlk]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;3811895]
A “temperamental” Andie probably isn’t going to be like a temperamental other breed. Most male Andies are kept stallions…if they were difficult or temperamental they’d be mostly gelded. :winkgrin: Even ones not used for breeding are kept intact as often as they’re gelded due to the easy temperaments and work ethics they have. I was looking for an Andie or Lusitano for a while…I had the hardest darned time finding geldings. Or mares for that matter. Mares aren’t considered riding horses in many of the countries that have a lot of Andie/Lusi breeding farms. I got laughed at a few times inquiring about mares for riding when calling places in Brazil, LOL!
Lusitanos are supposedly a bit more “hot” than Andies in general, more bold is how a few breeders termed it.
But I’ve known a handful or two of Andies and every single one has had one solid brain on it. Nothing I’d call even remotely temperamental…the ones I knew/know make the average QH seem flighty. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

AMEN to that! another reason the are kept as stallions is that they are a rare breed, so many people don’t want to geld them for that reason alone! that and tey are so easy to handle!

[sbp]

my new Andalusian filly

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I bought an Andalusian weanling last year as my next dressage horse… I searched for nearly a year before coming acrossed the ‘one’. I looked at many, many Andys and Lusatanos, studied pedigrees, and talked with numerous breeders before buying my filly. We saw some Andys that were not good dressage prospects, but the majority were lovely, kind, and quiet horses, with amazing presence.
My girl is bred on both sides to Leviton, and has wonderful movement for dressage… here are a couple pics of Valencia KDW http://www.adonaiequestrian.com/mares_of_adonai.htm She is almost 18 months old now, and going thru some growth spurts;) I hope to get some pics of her soon Here is video of her sire, Heroe MAC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJud1A75ZE0

I have bred warmbloods for many years, and my heart horse is a warmblood, but there is something about the Andys… I just love my Valencia–she is smart and attentive, a real person horse, and as sensible as any horse I have ever handled or bred. She is a keeper!

I have to agree that you don’t see too many Andys on the east coast—yet—I hope to change that!
Susan

[Merche2]

I luffffffff my Andalusian

First of all, I have to say I am very partial to breed (we come from the same country!) :D:D

I have had the pleasure to ride other breeds, including WB, TB, QH, etc, as a matter of fact, I own a QH Stallion that is the love of my life! So, without the patriotic pride of the breed, it is my experience that they are very level headed horses, with wonderful temperaments and just plain fun. My mare, she can be a handful but I don’t think is because of the breed, I think is because she is just that… a mare!!! God Bless those mares! They sure can either make you a better rider or make you pick up tennis instead! :o
And when I say she can be a handful, I don’t mean it in a way of being dangerous, she is just opinionated. She is not spooky, she is bold, willing (when she is not pmsy) and extremely intelligent (sometimes… that can be a problem LOL)
Anyways, I do agree with some of the post that any breed is going to have good and bad horses, it doesn’t matter. You can make a generalization of any breed but there will always be exceptions!

Now be aware, Andalusians are just like potato chips, you cannot just have one! For me, there is not turning back!:winkgrin:

[Marengo]

Since a few individuals have shown that Andies/Lusos can compete at the Olympic level I guess that means that the breed generally has what it takes to compete and win. Does anyone think that they are going to be the next fad after WBs? Are we about to see a whole bunch of unscrupulous Andie breeders selling dressage prospects all over North America in the next decade? Somehow I think not but I’m not sure why. One thing I’ve noticed is that I hardly ever see Andies/Luso’s for sale if they’re not weanlings or expensive proven stallions. Either they’re just really rare or they bond with their owners such that they get lifetime homes and are never sold.

I wonder if the British rider mentioned (who competed with two Andalusian stallions) is Patricia Findlay. I had the opportunity to meet her long after she’d retired from competition, I know she also trained with Nuno Oliveira in Belgium and other places. I love the look of the two weanlings shared in this thread as well.

[slc2]

Warmbloods aren’t a fad.

[FleetwoodStarr]

[QUOTE=nlk;3811777]

Also consider that Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Lipazzans all come from the same lines and are generally the same breed. They are from different parts of the Iberian peninsula but you will find that they are all PRE horses.

With this in mind the highest level of dressage riding is the Spanish Riding School and what do they use and train as their mounts?

If you’re interested in some lines and breeders feel free to contact me![/QUOTE]

I don’t know if I would classify andalusians, lusitanos and lippies as the same breed. :eek: The lippizan breed was heavily influenced by Spanish horses, native horses, and arabians. They may have a similar body type, but being a lippy owner on a spanish horse breeding farm, I can assure you they aren’t the same breed. How is a horse breed developed in Eastern Europe a pure spanish horse? And how is the portuguese Lusitano a pure spanish horse? I believe that most spanish breeders and portuguese breeders are driven crazy by having their carefully bred horses grouped into one breed.

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=FleetwoodStarr;3812906]
I don’t know if I would classify andalusians, lusitanos and lippies as the same breed. :eek: … And how is the portuguese Lusitano a pure spanish horse? I believe that most spanish breeders and portuguese breeders are driven crazy by having their carefully bred horses grouped into one breed.[/QUOTE]

I grabbed this off of a breeders’ website, but if you google “Andalusian Lusitano separate registries” you’ll get many different hits verifying the info.

" Originally both Portugal and Spain used the same Stud Book, however a political rift between the two country’s occurred in the 1960’s and so Spain and Portugal parted ways thus creating two different stud books. The Andalusian of Portugal was then named Lusitano or PSL meaning Pura Sangue Lusitano. In Spain Pura Raza Espanola or PRE, meaning Pure Spanish Horse. Before this rift happened they were all Andalusians. Up until a few years ago the Portuguese used Spanish horses in their breeding programs and may still do. The description and breed characteristics are virtually the same between Andalusian and Lusitano. The Andalusian follows military bloodlines and the Lusitano follows more bullfighting bloodlines (even though they are both used for bullfighting but predominately the Portugal bloodlines are used). "

Lipazzans are likely related in blood, but because they were separated so far geographically, the blood was surely diluted with local stock.

[FleetwoodStarr]

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;3812931]
I grabbed this off of a breeders’ website, but if you google “Andalusian Lusitano separate registries” you’ll get many different hits verifying the info.

" Originally both Portugal and Spain used the same Stud Book, however a political rift between the two country’s occurred in the 1960’s and so Spain and Portugal parted ways thus creating two different stud books. The Andalusian of Portugal was then named Lusitano or PSL meaning Pura Sangue Lusitano. In Spain Pura Raza Espanola or PRE, meaning Pure Spanish Horse. Before this rift happened they were all Andalusians. Up until a few years ago the Portuguese used Spanish horses in their breeding programs and may still do. The description and breed characteristics are virtually the same between Andalusian and Lusitano. The Andalusian follows military bloodlines and the Lusitano follows more bullfighting bloodlines (even though they are both used for bullfighting but predominately the Portugal bloodlines are used). "

Lipazzans are likely related in blood, but because they were separated so far geographically, the blood was surely diluted with local stock.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t saying that spanish horses, lusitanos and lippies weren’t closely related, I was just saying that they were not all pure spanish horses. I would also like to point out that a lot can change in a breed in nearly fifty years (look at the warmblood!) and I think it is fair to say they have moved past

If you look at my post regarding the lippizans, you will see I said that they were a cross of spanish stallions, arabians, and local horses.

[San_Miranda]

I have competed successfully at G.P. on an Andalusian stallion called Bambury Sanchez imported into Australia from the US.

I am training my present Andy (PRE) stallion to G.P level.

I have bred a Andy warmblood cross out of a Jazz mare. He is 3 years old and black and will get to 17hh and his owner loves him. He has a fantastic temperment and huge movement.

I will be breeding Andy/hanoverian crosses by my stallion Shibumi out of Wienna. You can see them both on my youtube clip and if you want photos I can e-mail them to you.

[Marengo]

I definitely would like to see your Andi/Hanno crosses, please send me the link by PM. I know I’m in the same part of the world as you but its not close enough. I think the Baroque horses, however you define them, have so much to offer to dressage. Its great to hear that some people are using them in breeding programs. Has anyone ever owned or bred a Andi(or Luso)/TB cross? I imagine the TB could take down the animated movement a bit, would that type of horse make a nice Hunter or far from it?

[JMurray]

[QUOTE=FleetwoodStarr;3812965]
If you look at my post regarding the lippizans, you will see I said that they were a cross of spanish stallions, arabians, and local horses.[/QUOTE]

Just to say that my understanding about this crossing is that it happened hundreds of years ago for the Lipizzans and their studbook has been closed for eons. Anyone here more knowledgeable about that…do I have that right?

I would be interested to know if the same is true about Andalusian and Lusitano studbook and origination? Please understand my knowledge about all this is very recent as I have only been Lipizzan shopping since this past October, so am learning as I go.

[FriesianX]

Fleetwood, no one here thinks the Baroque breeds are all a single breed - even the PRE people will correct us and point out Andalusian and PRE are NOT the same thing, just because a horse is Andalusian doesn’t mean it is PRE! But Baroque is used to generically bundle several different breeds together, just as Warmblood is used to bundle several different breeds and types together. I realize more of the Warmbloods cross lines back and forth in VERY recent times (like Oldenburg and Hannoverian are almost identical in their bloodlines), but then we also group Trakehner and Dutch horses and Selle Francias into the WB category - and they are distinctly different.

By the way, no one has mentioned Rociero or Invasor as recent international competitors???

Marengo - I have seen a couple of Andy/Tbred crosses. Interestingly, they were very difficult temperments, very hot and sensitive - true professional’s horses, but both were also VERY athletic and supple. Neither went far in the show world due to their temperments - perhaps in the right hands, they would have done better.

[MistyBlue]

One thing I’ve noticed is that I hardly ever see Andies/Luso’s for sale if they’re not weanlings or expensive proven stallions. Either they’re just really rare or they bond with their owners such that they get lifetime homes and are never sold.

In the USA finding Andies or Lusitanos of riding age that aren’t top breeding/competition stallions isn’t easy. Especially on the East coast. Once in a while there’s one available through Casa Lusitana in MA.
They are on the rare side around here, but there’s also the issue that private owners rarely ever sell them. Breeders sell them as weanlings to private owners and they stay with that owner for good most of the time. And the registries for both Andies and Lusitanos will take those breeds back if the owner can no longer care for them.
However in other countries like Brazil they can be found much more easily. They’re more abundant down there. Bred for either dressage or ranch work or sport horses. They can be quite decent jumpers. Not hunters though…the movement is all wrong.

My mother had an Andie x QH gelding years ago. Nowadays they call those Aztecas but I think there’s more to Aztecas than just being 50/50 Andie and QH. He was a really nice horse…that 15.2hh bugger could jump the moon and was bold as heck to fences.

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=FleetwoodStarr;3812965]
I wasn’t saying that spanish horses, lusitanos and lippies weren’t closely related, I was just saying that they were not all pure spanish horses.[/QUOTE]

That’s letting the registry define the breed. I think it’s much less confusing to think of the horses originating from the Iberian Peninsula as just that – Iberians. (the term “baroque” is WAY to arbitrary. When people start describing any horse thats hairy, and looks good in Renaissance costume “baroque” it loses any solid definition.) They all are descendant from the same indigenous stock, have identical “breed standards”, and apparently still utilize each others stallions. To me that makes them pretty much the same thing. If one can only think of a horse being PRE if it is born in Spain, and registered PRE, then what about the PRE’s being bred all over the world that are recognized by the main studbook? http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200806/dd_20080612-uspre.html
Friesians have two sizable registries. The Dutch and the German. They are however, the same horse – descended from the same stock and have closed studbooks.

@FleetwoodStarr;3812965

I would also like to point out that a lot can change in a breed in nearly fifty years (look at the warmblood!) and I think it is fair to say they have moved past

Sure, the Warmbloods have changed dramatically over a 50 year time span. But all of those registries have an open studbook policy. Change happens much faster and dramatically when choice of breeding stock is not tethered to a single studbook.