Andalusians & Lusitanos for dressage

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=San Miranda;3812972]
I have competed successfully at G.P. on an Andalusian stallion called Bambury Sanchez imported into Australia from the US.

I am training my present Andy (PRE) stallion to G.P level.

I have bred a Andy warmblood cross out of a Jazz mare. He is 3 years old and black and will get to 17hh and his owner loves him. He has a fantastic temperment and huge movement.

I will be breeding Andy/hanoverian crosses by my stallion Shibumi out of Wienna. You can see them both on my youtube clip and if you want photos I can e-mail them to you.[/QUOTE]

Good Lord, your mare Wienna is utterly breathtaking! Were you in the video of the auction?

I’d love to see more video of your stallion Shibumi. How long have you owned him?

Any pics of the Andie x Jazz baby? Who’s the daddy?

Gorgeous!

J

[Calliope]

The Spanish stud book was amalgamated in 1912, with a royal order on January 13th creating the Registro Matricula de Caballos y Yeguas de Pura Raza Española, giving rise to the Pura Raza Española. In 1967 the Portuguese stud book was amalgamated, creating the Livro Genealogico Portugues de Equinos and giving rise to the Cavalo Puro Sangue Lusitano.

Whilst these horses share a common ancestry, and many horses in both stud books share the same ancestors, the two stud books are now separate and closed.

In Spain, the name was changed to PRE to avoid misinterpretations and the politics associated with the term ‘Andalusian’ - not that the problem has been solved in the last 97 years ;).

PREs do not have to be bred in Spain; as long as foals meet the Stud Book requirements (parental registration, breeding approval, DNA testing etc) they can be registered in Spain.

From the 515 horses on the 2008 FEI dressage horse ranking list, there are ca. 9 PREs and 13 PSLs (1.7% & 2.5% of the total, respectively) - the majority are german or dutch warmbloods (with a few swedish & eastern european WBs).

In the top 100 horses, there are 3 PREs (38th, 86th & 89th) & two PSLs (92nd & 93rd).

Because I enjoy abusing statistics :winkgrin:, I conclude that that is not a bad effort.

Performance information is becoming more readily from Spain IMO, and frozen semen is more easily available - both of which are helpful for overseas breeders. PREs and PSLs are not to everyone’s taste - why should they be? - but they do have a legitimate place in dressage.

[MistyBlue]

Agreed, Wienna is lovely!

[pintopiaffe]

Somewhere in the USDF, the term Baroque is defined as a type of movement. When they do the seminars on Sporthorse Judging/movement, there are three categories, “WB, Baroque, and TB” they might now call TB hunter. But they very clearly define the differences in body shape and type and movement.

Any breed can have a horse of baroque type–the body will be more square than rectangular. The back is often flat, and short coupled, the neck is set on quite high. The movement tends to have more knee and hock action and is described as ‘round’, having more height and less forward movement.

Morgans, Arabs, some QH and APHA, even some WBs can be more ‘baroque’ in their build and movement. The shape and movement that comes to mind is that of the Iberian and Lippizan, though SOME Friesians also fit into this type. Not all. Some are coach horses.

Some Andalusians these days can pass for WB. There are quite a few who are 17h and not very round movers at all. They’re not my cuppa, and I don’t think they’re doing the breed any service. That is strictly my opinion.

[FleetwoodStarr]

[QUOTE=FriesianX;3813155]
Fleetwood, no one here thinks the Baroque breeds are all a single breed - even the PRE people will correct us and point out Andalusian and PRE are NOT the same thing, just because a horse is Andalusian doesn’t mean it is PRE! But Baroque is used to generically bundle several different breeds together, just as Warmblood is used to bundle several different breeds and types together. I realize more of the Warmbloods cross lines back and forth in VERY recent times (like Oldenburg and Hannoverian are almost identical in their bloodlines), but then we also group Trakehner and Dutch horses and Selle Francias into the WB category - and they are distinctly different.

.[/QUOTE]

I know that these breeds are generally called baroque, I was just responding directly to the person who said that the three breed were generall the same Breed, that they were all from the Iberian peninsula, and that they were all pure spanish horses. Since I don’t seem to be expressing myself very clearly in this thread I would like to clarify that I’m agreeing with you

jdboer- I’m aware you can breed spanish horses outside of spain I agree with everything you say I was just trying to say that that all portuguese horses are not pure spanish horses (eligible for the registry). Hell all horse bred in spain are not necessarily allowed to register with the PRE registry.
ps- Good point about the open studbooks in the warmbloods

As to the lippies- I was trying to say that while they were influenced in the beginning by the spanish horses they aren’t spanish horses.
Jmurrey: Yes for the most part they have kept the stud book fairly tight, although Piber was discussing bringing in a spanish stallion a few years ago (I don’t know if that ever happened).

[horsegalriding]

I have a PRE stallion who is doing quite well in dressage. My guy is very level headed, but not all of them are. He just mopped up this year in musical freestyle. Go on YouTube and enter his name - Teodoro’s Hechizo to see his freestyle. We have an 8 month old newly gelded youngster out of a nice TB mare who is really going to be really special. I think this kind of cross could make a wonderful dressage partner.

[Paula]

As an equine photographer who works a lot in California and Florida I see a lot of Lusitanos and Andis. There are really quite a few really nice ones out there now. I think the bigger problem than the sewing machine gaits (which you don’t see much IMHO) is that quite a few of them do really wing or paddle quite a bit. This isn’t seen as much in a side shot, but if you see them coming down the center line towards you it can be quite striking. That said, there are some extremely nice PRE’s and Lusitanos here in the states that are working at all levels. Here are just a few pictures that I have taken in the last couple of months http://web.sendtoprint.net/proofbook/login.asp use the keyword PRE - there are a few galleries if you look under categories. I could put tons more pictures up of some nice moving horses.

[slc2]

Winging out or paddling like Andalusians and Lusitanos do is not a problem in dressage and isn’t (and shouldn’t be) marked down.

[Paula]

Well I don’t ride at the upper levels myself but I’ve spoken to several well respected riders and trainers who do, and what they tell me is that the winging and paddling does cause problems in the upper level lateral work. It tends to be worse for andi’s and lusitanos because they also have more knee action than wb’s who can also show these lateral diversions (heck my own fjord pony paddles terribly :). So while yes it is not marked down per sey, it effects the quality of some of the work. Therefore certain types who move more correctly are better prospects for riders with higher level long range goals.

The other neat thing is I have seen some really neat big PRE’s lately - in the 17 h range that still retain breed type. I will have to drag out some of the photos of some of these nice youngsters that are getting imported. I think one key thing is getting them imported without the early spanish training if you can. That ups your odds on getting a correct horse for dressage. The recent shots I did at the beach that is in the link I posted with a PRE stallion was so much fun - that stallion was the biggest ham He just knew he was there to be admired and loved showing off. He is a PRE stallion currently showing at Grand Prix. And I didn’t include pictures in this group but he has an up and coming youg stallion so who is an incredibly hot looking yearling that is going to be something else in a few years. He has a bit more brio than dad and is sixteen hands already as a yearly. Absolutley drop dead gorgeous! Can’t wait to see that boy started in a few years…

[San_Miranda]

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;3813294]
Good Lord, your mare Wienna is utterly breathtaking! Were you in the video of the auction?

I’d love to see more video of your stallion Shibumi. How long have you owned him?

Any pics of the Andie x Jazz baby? Who’s the daddy?

Gorgeous!

J[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your comments. I feel very blessed to be owned by Wienna

No It is not me riding her in the auction. That was in 1999 and I bought her in 2006 and have just imported her and her Leonardo Da Vinci foal, San Miranda Mona Lisa into Australia.

I bred, broke and trained Shibumi and am now working on 1 time flying changes. He is doing 4 in a row and is very proud of himself.

You are welcome to view my photos at
http://s416.photobucket.com/albums/pp243/sanmiranda/?start=0

I am doing a dressage to music display with Shibumi in march and hope to video it and will put it up on you tube.