In better news, the U.S. Equestrian magazine was in the mail today, and along with the usual suspensions for medication violations, there was a six month suspension from USEF and a $5,000. fine for horse abuse by a rider at the Twin River Spring International horse trials .
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Possibly a stupid question and I donāt have time to scroll back 800 posts to find an answer.
Do we have documented and clear evidence on the date AMC knew an investigation involving him was on going? I wouldnāt be entirely shocked if the policy is to NOT notify the accused until formal charges or suspensions are brought, to prevent retaliation against current employees if they are the ones bringing a complaint (I know this case was past employees).
Anyways I ask cause it could be entirely likely AMC found out at the rest of the time when the FB videos were released over the weekend. Which would be a sh!t was to find out for sure, but Iām not entirely sure he knew in May the investigation was starting.
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Regardless of your opinion of my āsnarkā, IāM not the one you have to convince. This bulletin board is not the one you have to convince. If you have a valid legal opinion (and you have gone to some lengths to let us know that you do) why not send it to the one place where it might do some good?
ETA are you familiar with AHSA and the Paul Valliere history? Understandably, if you are not, the organization has a 4+ decade history of saying jurisdiction is limited to the show grounds and organization events. And for cases far more egregious than this one.
While you do not need case law for organization rules, I imagine if you are taken to court for overturning a long held position like that without changing your rules, ESPECIALLY if you have a pending rule change to address that long held position, that you, as an organization, would not withstand a legal challenge without some compelling case history to support you.
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Good question.
Per Eventing Nationās report in the timeline portion - specifically the June - August 2024 section:
Though we have not been able to confirm that Andrew has yet received a formal notification or charge letter, during this period of time he did become aware that the FEI was looking into the matter. He has indicated to EN that he is fully cooperating with their investigation, which is still ongoing. EN has also not been able to verify that a formal case has been opened yet, though witnesses confirm that the FEI did communicate that they were working on preparing one, and that the process would take some time. The witnesses expressed concern to the FEI about the time the investigation was taking, as by the end of August Andrew was preparing to compete at Defender Burghley. The witnesses also requested additional clarity from the FEI in terms of the investigation process and what would be needed to open a formal case. The next reply with an update on the investigation was provided from the FEI on September 11, though we are not privy to what that step is.
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Also in the USEF mag. was a mention of 42 grants given to licensed official applicants to help with the not inconsiderable expense required to become licensed, or for a license promotion.
I think they are on the right track with that. I hope they can increase the number of TDs.
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Just an aside. When Matt was a big fish in the small pool of northern CA he would always do Twin Rivers. Itās a fun place when itās not 105 degrees.
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Hey, Andrew, is that you? 
But let me get this straight: your main concern is the timing of making the report, not the horrendous abuse of the animals. Right. Got it.
Please read the articles in which it is explained that at least one of the reporters approached many people about reporting and was rebuffed. Also please see above where people using their real names explain that Andrew has been highly retaliatory against anyone who even speaks up to him, let alone to the authorities.
The real story here, as always, isnāt when it was released, but what it shows.
Note, also, that going after the person who reported it, including calling them āsh***yā is against USEF rules so you might want to have a care there.
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I donāt have to āconvinceā anyone. Iām having a discussion. You know, on a discussion board. Like everyone else here. Maybe wind your neck in? The aggressive snark is not only not appreciated, it detracts from the discussion.
Also, I find it really curious that youāre willing to be so aggressive towards another poster (who is merely joining the discussion with everyone else and taking the anti-abuse side) for the purpose of defending an organisation doing nothing to stop an abuser. Thatās a very unusual stance to take. If Iām going to be a real jerk to someone, like youāve decided to be to me, it should at least be in service of a position Iām passionate about. Being a USEF apologist seems like an unusual hill to die on.
I do know that US courts go for a āplain readingā of the language of operative docs, and the language here plainly says āapplies at all timesā to āmembersā. Thatās not a āvalid legal opinionā, itās a plain reading of the org docs. The USEF legal team would have to articulate how āapplies at all timesā doesnāt mean āapplies at all timesā but, actually, means āapplies only at USEF eventsā.
Failure to self-govern previously isnāt a terribly persuasive argument for not abiding by your own rules and regulations. I know I wouldnāt want to hang my hat on that argument as it wouldnāt support the weight of a straw boater.
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A lot of people have been through tough childhoods, been mentally, physically, or sexually abused etc, and donāt go on to abuse any animals, children, or people. Thatās a cop out. So no, I donāt have any pity for abusers. They need to be kept away from animals.
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I appreciate the empathy here and I think the fear of being vilified or cancelled for a once-in-a-blue-moon ābad momentā caught on video is very common. I think a lot of that fear is because we ALL have instances we regret. Itās a reflection of our own shame.
But when these types of videos and accusations come out, itās almost never something that happened once. Itās rare that they arenāt connected to a bigger pattern of abuse. Itās rare for accusations to be false. Itās also VERY rare for them to be about anyone who isnāt a fairly high profile professional, and those pros need to realize they are public figures. They will be videoed. If they are behaving poorly, it will eventually come out.
Itās possible Andrew has a mental health issue, because itās possible ANYONE does. It does not resolve you of personal responsibility in 99% of cases - the ātruly canāt be held responsibleā tier of mental illness leads to inpatient treatment, not Burghley. If youāre too unwell to ride without punching your horse in the face (!), you should be on the phone to a therapist and not riding until the issue is resolved, even if that requires a career change.
I know Andrew and his family, although I havenāt seen any of them in years. This is his profession and he has violated his ethical duty to the horses in his care, his clients, his students, his sponsors. No one says stockbrokers accused of insider trading āmade a mistakeā or might be mentally unwellā¦
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I always think that riders saying be kind when another rider has behaved badly are thinking about their own behaviours
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Is there language in there on what the consequences are for violating the code? I donāt have them in front of me but my guess is without a clearly defined clause saying violating the code of conduct is grounds for expulsion, the USEF isnāt willing to face a lawsuit arguing that a ban was an overreaction or whatever argument AM would come back with. I would love for the CoC to be enough but I have no doubt the USEF legal team has considered that approach and apparently found it insufficient. Unfortunately there really isnāt any mechanism to make USEF enforce its rules if they choose not to; the rule change is a good step in the right direction if they arent willing to act on the CoC alone.
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Pleaseā¦ You have been beating people over the head and neck with your opinion for over the course of 830 posts and come back like a personal attack pit viper when the favor is returned. Personally, I donāt care, you gotta be you, but letās not pretend itās a conversation, so much as a one sided barrage of the World According to FitzE
For the record, Iām pointing out that USEF has a long history of stating that they have no jurisdiction outside of competition and that the code of conduct, which is only a small part of a hefty rule book only applies to instances where they have governance. Which is, again, competition grounds. This goes back to instances far more egregious than this one, and Iām not entirely certain they didnāt lose civil lawsuits related to this issue (not certain enough to throw it in the mixā¦ But Paul on the other side of that WEF hedge on Monday sticks in my brain).
They were so certain about this that they took the time and effort to implement a rule change that allowed governance outside competition grounds. They may not be correct, maybe they didnāt need to do that, but they been pretty clear that āat all timesā means at all times during competition grounds, not just in a competition. Your one legal opinion vs their legal team and extensive contentious legal history in this area? I do not know the answer to that, but I genuinely do feel if you have the legal interpretation breakthrough, you would be doing us all a solid by sharing it with their legal team. And that is really and truly, not snarky.
Regardless, if they had done nothing to correct this, I too would be pissed. But they did. They:
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recognized the deficiency and took steps to address it with a rule change.
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When an issue showed up in advance of the rule taking effect they promptly sent it to the one organization that could enforce action.
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Even after a rule change that may still happen since both organizations honor each others suspensions. I suspect USEF may always be inclined to turf their FEI membership up to the higher authority and focus their efforts on USEF only members. Iām OK with that. Thereās a lot more of the latter and some trainer practices that desperately need some sunlight.
So theyāve done something. Could they have done more and sooner? Sure, but Iām not beating them over the head for action actually taken. I DO think the FEI needs to better communicate how it handles these complaints, otherwise it is just going to keep doing the equivalent of stepping on a rake and hitting itself in the face.
Now Iām certain you have many opinions about this, so carry on!
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Absolutely. Transparency goes a LONG way.
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One thing I find really interesting about this is how nearly it parallels cases of human/child abuse.
āIf they were so worried why did they wait?ā being used to attack victims/reporters of such things is nothing new, and has a long history (along with its close friend, the āif she was being abused why did she stay?ā). Itās really old, and as lots of people have said here, thereās tons of reasons it could take so long. Being worried about oneās professional future, difficulty in getting actual evidence, the perpetrators relationships with the very people one would be reporting to, or plain old wanting to put the mess behind them for their own well being.
I mean look at the George Morris thing - āwhyād they wait so longā was bandied about frequently in his defense, but thereās plenty of good reasons why that took so long, and it doesnāt change the facts of what he did.
Itās a DARVO play and itās sad to me that people still try to do it.
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Iāve thought of that situation as well and wondered if it was a factor in choices made this year when responding to this situation (as well as Parra) and rewriting certain rules.
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Ok, Iām sorry but not sorry I keep intruding with related but in the timing questions or points.
So I have a largely young audience that Iām surrounded by both in person and online. I consider āusā on the forum primarily Millennial to Boomer (in the nicest way) generation.
I almost wrote a little statement yesterday encouraging my audience (again who are
mostly 14-25, a larger chunk at the 18-21) to tell their friends, family, professionals, organizations if they see something. How admirable it was of those like Allie Conrad to say something .
But then, I thought, well who are āweā to tell juniors to say things against adults, thatās not their obligation, itās on āusā adults. Do we just show in our own actions of speaking up or do we encourage younger generation to not fear āwhatever power imbalanceā there is. You read examples further up of those working student positions, and itās heartbreaking. I havenāt come to a conclusion yet.
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There is. If you violate the CoC you hop over to GR703 which provides for Censure, Suspension, Expulsion, and Fines.
First there is the Code of Conduct, then the next section is Enforcement which reads in the entirety:
A violation of this Code of Conduct may be grounds for action, which could result in an admonishment,
warning, required training, or penalties set forth in General Rule 703.
I listed the penalties above.
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If they havenāt enforced it that way in the past, barring the rule change they are absolutely screwed in court should they try to enforce it that way now.
Past practice and setting precedent and all that.
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You read my mind. Iām having a hard time putting the words together, so will try to make sense.
I get schooling and competing up the levels. I get that some horses are naturally gifted physically and mentally to handle the stress, but my god, there are very, very few that can. And why as human beings do we feel the need to push past a horseās capabillities? Why canāt we be happy with our horseās abilities, celebrate the small milestones, and enjoy their company?
Having just watched Chimp Crazy (omg, crazy doesnāt begin to describe this level of insanity), it really hammered home to me that our animals arenāt there to cure something lacking in our own souls. Weāre lucky to have them. Donāt they deserve lives where theyāre lucky to have us?
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