Andrew McConnon horse abuse

[FitzE]

I don’t know about that, though. Their failure to follow their own rules doesn’t mean the rules aren’t there and people potential relied on those rules when signing up and paying their fees.

The challenging party would have to take them to court and try to argue that, in the face of blatant demonstrating abuse, they should nonetheless keep their membership b/c they USEF didn’t enforce it before. I don’t think that’s a winner. Plus, any case brought wrt AM would be post whatever the FEI is going to find so it would be moot as USEF will follow FEI sanctions.

I don’t see a big risk here for the USEF actually following their own protocol whether or not they have in the past. I’d also be interested to see what CoC violations they have sanctioned in the past. Just b/c they are high-profile and public doesn’t mean they haven’t enforced this previously in cases that didn’t make the headlines and/or were pre-SM so fewer people would know.

[endlessclimb]

@FitzE

Their failure to follow their own rules doesn’t mean the rules aren’t there

If a city doesn’t prosecute for X for 20 years and then suddenly wants to against Joe Blow, that absolutely will come up in the suit or the counter suit.

[anon6923113]

@AskMyAccountant.17

But then, I thought, well who are “we” to tell juniors to say things against adults, that’s not their obligation, it’s on “us” adults. Do we just show in our own actions of speaking up or do we encourage younger generation to not fear “whatever power imbalance” there is. You read examples further up of those working student positions, and it’s heartbreaking. I haven’t come to a conclusion yet.

I have interacted with working students in the 18-25 year old range in a few different programs over the course of the last decade, and become very friendly with some.

Honestly, if any one of them was faced with a very stressful situation like this, and came to me for advice, I wouldn’t tell them to have no fear of a power imbalance. I think doing so would set them up for a rough experience.

I would take time to talk to them about options, and paths forward to address concerns. And encourage them to think about what they define in their own heads as “personal conduct boundaries” that they are comfortable with when interacting with workers and roommates and employers on a day in and day out basis, and what “personal conduct” falls firmly outside of their “acceptable zone.”

If people find themselves working and living in a situation where people or employers are consistently engaging in conduct that falls outside of their own “acceptable zone” and crosses defined boundaries… then something must change. And the hard reality of life is that frequently it’s more effective to vote with your feet and move on, than to try and change other people’s conduct.

When it comes to speaking up for horses in situations like this? At the end of the day, the owner is responsible for the wellbeing of their horse. I know this thread has focused intensely on governing bodies and rules… and that’s important… but the bottomline is always going to be that wellbeing is the responsibility of the horse’s owner. Allie Conrad has shared that during the time her horses were at AM’s barn, several people tried to warn her. Some seemed to be more direct and specific than others. I think that’s part of the story we all should take note of… to listen closely when people try and warn you there might be issues going on with your horse. And think about how you would try to speak to someone else if you had concerns their horse was being mistreated.

[FitzE]

But that’s a government that can deprive you of fundamental rights, so, higher scrutiny. This is a club. And, again, we don’t know how many times they have enforced the CoC. We only know the high-profile cases.

But, look, that’s just my take based on a plain reading of the docs. I don’t know how ‘applies at all times’ to ‘members’ could possibly mean ‘only applies at USEF events’, but maybe there is someone here who can walk me through other parts of the org docs that somehow undo this language or something. I’m just not seeing it yet.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

Being a USEF apologist seems like an unusual hill to die on.

With all due respect, I didn’t read her comment as being an apologist for USEF, but rather as an observation that posting our opinions here was not going to get the job done - that we have to take our concerns to USEF. And that a strongly worded communication from an attorney such as yourself might open some eyes at USEF and make them start thinking that maybe, just maybe their legal counsel isn’t up to snuff regarding this issue.

I do agree that her post was pretty blunt and curt and hence sounded rather sarcastic but I get the sense that her intent was to reinforce the notion that USEF has a plethora of attorneys who have likely already looked at this type of issue and they repeatedly came to the same conclusion - “It didn’t happen at a USEF-licensed event, therefore we can’t do anything.”

Is USEF covering its a**? Of course it is - and it pays attorneys to help them do that. So maybe a communication from another attorney pointing out the error of their ways will gain traction there - or maybe not. But I suspect USEF isn’t going to budge regarding this particular individual until FEI sanctions him, and if that doesn’t happen, then unless and until he is caught on video abusing another horse AFTER Dec. 1. And that WILL happen at some point because he is apparently a serial abuser and those folks cannot stop.

[FitzE]

@DownYonder

And that a strongly worded communication from an attorney such as yourself might open some eyes at USEF and make them start thinking that maybe, just maybe their legal counsel isn’t up to snuff regarding this issue.

Oh, wow, I read it as so mocking and belittling of me that I never would have guessed this was the angle. I just blocked and moved on I found it so bizarrely harsh and rude. Others have expressed to me that they, too, were shocked at the tone and content of that post so I was thinking it wasn’t just me. But you make an interesting point, for sure.

I have been engaging b/c 1. I really care about animal welfare and I’ve done most of my pro-bono for animal-related cases. It’s a topic I’m passionate about.

2. I am genuinely curious where in their org docs and how they find a basis for not enforcing their own rules and regs. Like, if one of their legal team walked me through from Rule to Rule to Bylaw etc. and showed me how they build the position that what the CoC plainly says is not what they should do (can do?), I would find it truly interesting.

It’s like a puzzle and I just cannot see how they get from A to B given what I can read of their org docs. I’m really curious about the whole thing.

But, thank you for the much kinder take.

[anon6923113]

Soooo… I’m going to take a stab at something that was addressed earlier in the thread by @JER and @Bensmom - who are both DEFINITELY much better informed than me on this topic. And hopefully one or both of them will jump in and correct me when I inevitably get part of the issue incorrect. Because IANAL, and am just a bumbling ammy owner

But here we go. I think what I am understanding is that part of the risk of enforcing the code of conduct in the manner you are laying out is not just that the governing body has failed to enforce it that way in the past, and this might get sued.

There is a whole different risk that USEF is being careful about.

USEF is the national federation for an Olympic Sport, and as such, they have a monopoly over recognized showing in certain disciplines. There are also some specific laws that seem to speak to this status as an approved monopoly. But… part of the obligation is that they abide by their own by laws, and don’t act “corruptly.” If there are serious complaints to the USOPC about corruption and inequitable treatment on the part of USEF towards their membership… or major lawsuits about such an issue… they risk decertification as a national federation.

If they lost that status, then they would lose monopoly power. And… that could be a major issue. Hunter jumpers have been discussing this issue for a while. Eventing? Not so much. Plenty of people enjoy doing local and unrecognized events. But… these are mostly for lower levels. There is a very real risk to the entire sport world the national federation was decertified. I can’t speak to how that might play out, but I think that’s part of the consideration in the background. Sooooo… USEF is being exceptionally cautious and risk averse concerning how they are enforcing rules. And seems to have chosen to punting things to the FEI when they can for some time. But… that approach has also seemingly resulted in a lack of action on some high profile cases, which definitely causes people to wonder if the inaction is also possibly the result of corruption? And now there seems to be real risk from having gone too far in a different direction.

Anyway… I’m probably bungling how I am speaking to this particular issue. I don’t fully grasp it. But… I think that’s part of the puzzle when trying to grasp why USEF is or isn’t enforcing the code of conduct right now. Hopefully better informed people will speak up and correct whatever I got wrong here.

[FitzE]

No, I bet you’re right and that makes it even more interesting as a legal question. Maybe I need to dive back into the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act!

It does seem a double bind: kick it to FEI b/c you think you’re doing a CYA and avoiding corruption accusations, but also NOT abiding by their own laws, as you mention, could get them in hot water, too. Interesting angle.

So as not to draw more ire my way, I’ll message you.

[Jealoushe]

Still no statement from AM or FEI.

Tick, tock….

[anon6923113]

I don’t think we will get one from either of them.

I don’t really see what is preventing the chief of Sport for USEF from making a statement. After all, he just spoke to the issues involved at length and in detail in January of this year…

2024 USEF Annual Meeting Workshop 2: Working Together for Our Future: Our...

This part of the press release stood out to me:

O’Connor shared the action steps that Equine Ethics & Wellbeing Commission said all equestrians need to take:

• Not only optimize and prioritize equine welfare because it is the “right thing to do,” but also to be seen to be doing so.
• Understand their responsibility and the impact of their actions, words, and use of images.
• Ensure that they actively engage with and address concerns related to social license.

[Mondo]

@DMK

Please… You have been beating people over the head and neck with your opinion for over the course of 830 posts and come back like a personal attack pit viper when the favor is returned. Personally, I don’t care, you gotta be you, but let’s not pretend it’s a conversation, so much as a one sided barrage of the World According to FitzE

DMK, who pissed in your cornflakes? Jeebus, take a chill pill. FitzE was stating their opinion, which, from a legal standpoint, is well informed. You disagree. We get it. Why are you picking a fight with them? I, for one, have enjoyed their perspective, YMMV. But you don’t have to be a jerk about it.

[Mondo]

I agree that while we can discuss all day long, nothing will change. Why don’t we start a petition online? Promote the hell out of it. Get as many thousands of signatures as we can, and send it to USEF. Let’s point out that they do in fact have standing to do something about this, and kicking the can down the road to FEI is a blatant copout. Let the FEI do what they will, USEF and certainly toss AM out on his ass and let the chips fall where they may. I’m happy to write it if I can get some assurance that those on this board complaining will share it far and wide.

[Mondo]

Well there I go volunteering for something that I can’t do - I’m not a member of USEF and haven’t been for over 20 years since I stopped showing. I have no standing (other than my strong opinion) to create such a petition. And, FWIW, I will sign one if someone else creates it.

[Jealoushe]

They want US to care about social licensing and not ruin the sports image….but they can sit in their hands.

The more time passes the more pissed
off I get.

Has anyone notified the police regarding the abuse? What are animal abuse laws like in his state?

[jcc813]

Wow. This just underlines the hypocrisy of the way they’ve handled this situation. I agree from a “social license” (if not necessarily legal) POV it would behoove them to provide a more sincere public statement about this.

When I got the email response from USEF’s Emily Pratt copied x number of posts ago, I did write back asking why no action could have been taken given their COC. So far, no response. And I did CC DOC on my emails.

[DownYonder]

@Amberley

I wonder if they (FitzE) are truly an attorney tbh.

I do not know her personally but I have interacted with her through other channels, and it is my firm belief that she is indeed an attorney, and a quite experienced one at that.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

@DownYonder

And that a strongly worded communication from an attorney such as yourself might open some eyes at USEF and make them start thinking that maybe, just maybe their legal counsel isn’t up to snuff regarding this issue.

Oh, wow, I read it as so mocking and belittling of me that I never would have guessed this was the angle. I just blocked and moved on I found it so bizarrely harsh and rude. Others have expressed to me that they, too, were shocked at the tone and content of that post so I was thinking it wasn’t just me. But you make an interesting point, for sure.

Yes, the wording and tone was over the top but I do not believe her intent at first was to belittle you but rather to try to get you to understand that USEF has its own attorneys, and that they have undoubtedly looked at this type of issue multiple times, and they have reached a different conclusion than you did. She also wanted to impress on you that a strong opinion on an internet bulletin board is not going to outweigh the opinions of those attorneys. IOW, the only avenue is to go directly to USEF, and if you can’t get a satisfactory response, you may have to resort to legal action and let it be decided in the judicial system as to who is right and who is wrong. Which of course takes $$$$…

[Warmblood1]

Why on earth has this thread devolved to attacking @Fitze? This is an important conversation to have but the snark and rudeness is going to sabotage any real conversation.

[DownYonder]

And I get it about @FitzE feeling insulted - we are all so passionate about this issue and it is easy to react emotionally about various posts. Perhaps everyone needs to take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard for a while before firing off a kneejerk response - and that comment is not aimed at any one particular person but at all of us (me included!).

[Amberley]

No-one is attacking FitzE, they are disagreeing with her take on the situation and in my case at least thinking she must not be as familiar as she says she is because there is a looooong and easily discoverable history there of the problems USEF has had enforcing anything off showgrounds. Disagreement and pointing out that someone is factually wrong is not an attack, despite a recent social shift to make us think it is.

FitzE otoh has felt pretty free to call other posters names and accuse them of sympathizing with horse abusers and of being mean to her. Which is particularly ludicrous as the people she’s attacking are often the ones who have had actual involvement in trying to change rules.