Another eventing breeding question

[Forte]

Am I crazy to be thinking of trying to breed an event horse out of my dressage mare? Obviously I don’t expect to breed a 4* horse out of a dressage mare, but my goal would be a do produce a dual talent dressage/event horse with the talent for PSG dressage/Prelim eventing. My mare will be showing 4th level dressage this year and will be dabbling in lower level eventing (she started jumping late in life). She is a super elastic mover and is a bold and tidy jumper, but lacks power and scope for the bigger jumps. This is her pedigree:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10669687

It’s a pretty dressage pedigree, but the maternal grand dam Aviary did produce a Grand Prix jumper so there is some jumping talent in the damline. I would like to breed her to a stallion who can add a little size (or at least not decrease size), improve the gallop and jump, without losing my mare’s good elastic movement and talent for collection. Would I be better off breeding her to a warmblood jumper stallion to improve the jump or an eventing stallion with a high percentage of TB blood? My concern with breeding to a full TB is that I may lose some of the movement. The mare has had one foal so far, by Belissimo M , who is turning out to be a phenomenal dressage horse, but as expected, Belissimo did not improve the jump.

I prefer to stay with frozen semen or a fresh semen from within Canada (fresh semen from the US is too much of a PITA for me). The mare is CWHBA registered but approved Main Mare book for Oldenburg. Ideally I would like Oldenburg papers for the foal.

[horsetales]

If you are breeding for eventing, look at Sea Accounts. While TB he is also approved AHS/HV,GOV, ATA, RPSI

Also Tatendrang - 2006 Approved Trakehner Stallion. 17.1 hh By Onassis E o/o Tanzania E by Avignon II. Approved with ATA, TK Verband, sBs (Belgian), ISR/OLD NA

[snaffle1987]

See my Bonne Nuit thread. Worth considering anything that is still available from those lines, especially anything that is/has competed in eventing (Triple Twist).

Sea Accounts is a good choice.

[snaffle1987]

I also had two Hanoverians who were from the W line. Very pretty movers, big steps, powerful hind ends but also bred with dressage in mind. Mine had a little too much bone and substance to be able to make it around an eventing course but they could jump and many W line Hanoverians can jump quite well.

[beowulf]

Freestyle seems to have a few LL eventers in my area… He seems to improve jump more than other dressage stallions do, and puts great movement on horses.

Do you want to event? To what level? I don’t see why your mare wouldn’t be able to do the smaller stuff (BN/N) if her mind is into it – eventing is just as much mental as it is raw talent.

If you really wanted to breed the mare, I’d go with Trakehner. One, because the ‘cross’ tends to produce athletic jump types while improving blood - Hanoverian blood does very well historically with Trakehner blood… but I also say go Trakehner because your mare has a fair bit of TK + TB blood further back and some linebreeding to Absatz, who is a son of Trakehner Abglanz. Breeding your mare to a Trakehner would be closer to breeding “type-to-type” and would help better isolate the traits you want for the offspring you want.

Tatendrang comes to mind, he’s known to add height and blood/jump talent… he STAMPS and is very typey… and he does not detract from movement IME, and will contribute it if the mare is average.

I think if you really want proven, go with Buddenbrock. You cannot get more proven for TK sport than him, I think.

I also really like Halimey Go.

[Manni01]

I usually recommend Buddenbrock in these threads because he is very very proven. Semen should not be the problem, there is a lot of TB % in him and I saw a Buddenbrock mare out of a TB mare the otherday in Germany which confirmed my opinion. He will not destroy any gaits.
But I am a conservative person, I believe in proven stallions

[vineyridge]

Take a look at the pedigree of Santano II who, at a very young age, did very well in the Olympics until stadium jumping.
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/1737626

If he isn’t a dressage bred horse who happened to get a jump through his sire (IMO), I don’t know what else he could be.

[OBdB]

Did you consider Jaguar Mail … ? while not TB his a 75% (Hand in Glove x Laudanum x Almé), he will not destroy gaits and could improove the jump.

Atention to the heights : my 2 JM out of a HOL-mare (166cm) mesure around 175cm now …

[Forte]

Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone!

I should probably clarify, my hope is that the resulting offspring will compete in BOTH dressage and eventing. I am a dressage professional, so I really do a need a horse with good movement that is going to be competitive in the open division at EC Gold shows (My mare Forte does fulfill that criteria. My hope is just that the stallion won’t take away from her movement). When it comes to eventing, I am definitely an amateur. I will be competing Forte at Canadian Entry level this year. I can’t imagine myself ever being brave enough to do more than Training Level, but it would be fun to have a horse that has enough scope that my coach could ride the horse in some of the higher levels. My mare has a good show record up to Third Level dressage and will be showing Fourth this year. Her first foal “Fortuna” made her show debut this past summer scoring up to 80% in Training Level dressage. So I think my mare has good “credentials” to be a broodmare in terms of her pedigree, competition and production record. She has also conceived on a half dose of frozen semen before, so I think is a good candidate to try frozen again.

Some really great suggestions have been made here. Jaguar Mail appeals to me, as does some of the Trakehners mentioned. Does anyone know much about Mighty Magic? Or are there any other Heraldik line stallions I should be looking at?

[beowulf]

IME MM should be used on more refined mares; he tends to produce heavy… I don’t even know if you can get Heraldik anymore… there’s not much left and I know breeders are clutching them because that’s a golden egg if there ever was one. Other than Herald III and Hyperion (the Heraldik son, not the TB stallion) I am not sure if he has many approved sons.

Heraldik sired one of my favorite horses of all time, FRH Butts Abraxxas.

As an eventer, I’m not a fan of Jaguar Mail - though his gaits are certainly very nice.

[OBdB]

beowulf, why don’t you like JM ? any particular reason ? he is the leading French eventing sire …

the problem I experienced with him are the dimensions of his descendants … not the quality … even if it’s true (for my horses) when one says ‘the bigger the horse, the later the use’ …

[Elles]

Heraldik also sired a good dressage horse. Talking about versatility!

[Forte]

[QUOTE=beowulf;9002736]
IME MM should be used on more refined mares; he tends to produce heavy… I don’t even know if you can get Heraldik anymore… there’s not much left and I know breeders are clutching them because that’s a golden egg if there ever was one. Other than Herald III and Hyperion (the Heraldik son, not the TB stallion) I am not sure if he has many approved sons.
QUOTE]

Mighty Magic might actually be ok for this mare then. Although her pedigree doesn’t suggest it, she is on the smaller side (just a hair under 16 hands) and a lighter more TB build. She actually often gets mistaken for a TB until people see her move. Her daughter Fortuna is also a smaller/lighter model.

[Elles]

This is the horse I meant: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10482215&blood=10&quota=

[vineyridge]

If I had a dressage mare and the pedigrees didn’t cause problems, I’d look at Hilltop’s Royal Prince who sired a successful event horse who came 2nd at a 1* with Doug Payne at Bromont in 2012. But that was the only FEI competition that he ran per the FEI database.

Here is a sale video of Royal Tribute from 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upaLH7eou2U

According to the Hilltop website Royal Prince was imported as an “improvement” stallion.

From the photo of the mare on Sporthorse Breed Database, she is far from light. She may be small, but she appears rather chunky to my eye.

[beowulf]

Jaguar Mail needs a horse with a lot of blood - his best offspring seem to be out of full TB or 3/4 TB mares. Despite being 3/4 TB himself, he is by no means a refinement sire - he improves scope and gaits but I don’t think he improves stamina. You need the mare to have that baseline. From his kids I have seen, they are consistently heavier-type than him, as he does not bring blood to his foals.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

I think Tatendrang Pb would work well for your purposes.

[snaffle1987]

Personally, If you’re looking for an event stallion and a proven one at that, and your willing to do frozen; my advice is to look in Ireland or event Britain.

There are plenty of websites that can tell you what has been most successful for sires through offspring proving themselves out on the circuit. A few of them are:

Flexible: Rich Fellers show jumping stallion. Hes sired by Cruising and is available AI

Ricardo Z http://www.kedrah.com/Sports-StallionsAbout-Us/Ricardo-Z#.WHPtb03ru70

Royal Concorde: Concorde x King of Diamonds. http://www.bonmahonsporthorses.net/stallions/royal-concorde/

Jumbo (died in 2015)http://www.grafhamstud.com/JUMBO_Grafham_Stud.html

Mill Law (Sired by a TB out of part bred arab. Advanced eventer himself siring top eventers. I believe he is in Britain. https://www.facebook.com/Mill-Law-Advanced-Event-Stallion-123178874395368/

Ramiro B

Harlequin Du Carel (Based in Ireland)http://www.ballymureenstud.ie/harlequin.html

Master Imp (been dead for awhile now but plenty of Master Imp sons available with good success)

Heraldik xx. Also since died and anything left is pretty much held in fort knox but if you can find a son of his, worth using! Meraldik is a stallion direct from Heraldik’s full sister and Royaldik is also from Heraldik’s full sister. links to both of them: http://thestallioncompany.com/stallion-royaldik.php
http://www.yancey-farms.com/product/royaldik/

Bahrain Cruising: Son of Cruising. Lots of talent in his offspring with FEI points.

Clover FLush: or any of the listed Clover Hill sons listed in the irish sport horse studbook. Might be a nice cross on a mare like yours

Cruising: if you can get any frozen or reach out to his breeder at Hatrwell stud to get collection from one of his clones. Would make a real lovely cross on your mare.

If looking for more TB blood domestically, Weston Justine would be one I’d look at. 16.1 sired by a FULL TB. evented through advanced. Not sure if hes still available but a neat option
http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/westonjustice.html

[snaffle1987]

I personally have always been a fan of Cruising and his sons. You’d be hard pressed to find another stallion who has had so much success both in show jumping and eventing. I did check their website and Cruising’s clones are available shipped worldwide

http://www.hartwellstud.com/#!stallions

[OBdB]

“Jaguar Mail needs a horse with a lot of blood - his best offspring seem to be out of full TB or 3/4 TB mares. Despite being 3/4 TB himself, he is by no means a refinement sire - he improves scope and gaits but I don’t think he improves stamina. You need the mare to have that baseline. From his kids I have seen, they are consistently heavier-type than him, as he does not bring blood to his foals.”

I partially disagree. Yes he doesn’t add blood, and yes his progeny has ‘dimensions’.
But out of a TB-daughter (with old HOL ancestors on the mother side) he brought me two important horses, too important for me, but not as big as him …