Another fatal Pit Bull attack....

[S1969]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7508572]
S1969-you STILL have not said how you think that being a licensed breeder will affect the people who are already doing illegal things with their dogs. Do you honestly think Mr Gangleader and Mr Dogfighter are going to say, “Oh, I need to go get a license”? I mean, really?

For the record, I am not against the idea. It couldn’t hurt. But I DO NOT think this is a good solution.[/QUOTE]

First of all, it would be harder to sell the puppies because any sort of online advertising would make it easier to find the breeder and find out if they have a license. And some breeders have their own websites; it is just a big advertisement for AC to come and find out if they have the appropriate license.

And, if they DON’T have a license, there is no requirement to prove that their dogs are dangerous, or that they are doing anything illegal (selling drugs, dog fighting, etc.) Depending on the wording, they could be fined, the dogs could be seized, etc.

If the fee is high enough and the penalties are significant enough; it might reduce the number of “breeders” that are just selling puppies to make extra money. It probably won’t stop the ones that are selling puppies for $4000 each, but it makes them have to comply or risk fine/seizure.

Sure, people will do it anyway, but then it will actually be illegal. Right now, in most states it is perfectly legal for anyone to take the meanest fighting-bred dogs and breed them and sell their puppies to anyone who shows up with cash.

[chancellor2]

I wouldn’t be against this idea but I don’t think it would work. Yes, AC could go after them. But in my town, my ACO doesn’t even have an email address. She is too busy going after dogs who are loose in town or doing other stuff. I can’t imagine she would have the time to start looking for breeders.
The ACOs are already busy enough and they don’t have the means or the time to go after illegal breeders (breeding without a license).
My ACO doesn’t carry a weapon. I can’t IMAGINE going after Mr Gangbanger with nothing but her good nature (not that there are any gangbangers in my small town).
Once again, I think this comes down to making the ACOs have MORE power and control. Giving current laws more “teeth” (pun intended).

It is not in my best interest as a pit bull owner and lover to have the bad guys breeding pit bulls. I’d LOVE to see a way to fix this. But there are already laws on the books that can be used to go after these guys. But ACOs are not about arresting people.

[fargaloo]

I have a question and I swear I am not trolling – I really am reading the arguments on both sides and trying to learn as much as I can here.

I don’t have a lot of experience with pit bulls (breed or type). I live in an area that has had BSL for some time. My question is: in areas without BSL, where do most pit bulls come from? I hear that rescues are flooded with them in some areas, and of course we hear about breeding for fighting. Are there many good, responsible breeders who are selecting breeding dogs for “family friendly” temperament, make sure the puppies are well socialized, and make sure that prospective owners are well-matched to the breed? Are they the majority or the minority – or do we even know?

I truly am not trolling – I have owned several pound dogs that had pretty crappy starts in life who turned out to be fantastic dogs, so I am not asking the question with any hidden agenda. I just truly want to know if there are breeders who are trying to move the breed away from the fighting background, or are most pit bulls today still the product of selection for fighting tendencies.

Thanks!

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7508555]
Supporters of the breed such as myself ARE doing what we can for the breed. PART of that is educating those who care to be educated that not all of what is reported in the media is true. However, there is only so much that we can do because the media reach so many. It is obvious from several posts on here that MANY people have never met in person a pit bull dog that has been properly socialized.
The media likes to say that these dogs may “snap at any time” and it is obvious to me that many people believe that. The bottom line is that this is simply not true. Dogs that “snapped for no reason” often DO have reasons that were missed or just not reported by the media.
The media is out for ratings. The media is NOT about telling the truth anymore. The media is about getting paid for advertising. And so, hype sells. PIT BULL attacks attracts FAR MORE attention than Mixed breed attacks. When that woman in San Francisco was mauled by those dogs, they were intially reported as pit bulls. I STILL have people tell me that she was mauled by pit bulls. It JUST.WASN’T.TRUE. And by the time the true breed of the dog came out (Presa Canario), no one cared. They just remember that she was mauled by pit bulls. This happens again and again.
One of the stories here was about a 130lb pit bull. This is WELL outside the breed standard for the dog. But, because it mauled someone, well it must have been a pit bull.

It WAS a Pit Bull. Your misinformation is NOT education. It’s just not. Just because something is outside of the breed standard doesn’t mean it isn’t a member of the breed. It means it’s progenitors were selected for the traits it possesses and those traits, while en vogue, don’t mesh with the historical breed standard. As long as breed registries allow canines that don’t meet standards to be registered, why not breed to satisfy any whim we please?

What do I, as a breed proponent do for my breed of choice? Educate people one by one by one. Scarlett meets people wherever we go with a happy wag of her tail and a goofy grin. When children want to pat her, I allow them to do so. I tell them that THIS is the true pit bull breed. And that they are not all bad. There are bad dogs in all breeds. The answer to this problem lies not in banning the dogs but working on the bad owners.

Rest assured that Breed Specific Legislation does not really help anyone in the long run. The bad owners will move onto the next breed of dog. And you better hope it isn’t YOUR chosen breed.

We need more good AKC trainers who support the breed like my own trainer. People who don’t automatically think that because the dog is a pit bull, it must be bad. Or because it bit someone it MUST be a pit bull. GOOD owners of pit bulls will take them to obedience school and train them to be good citizens just like any GOOD owner of ANY breed of dog.
Are they a good breed for anyone? No. Half the population is below average intelligence. I think you need to be at least as smart as your dog in order to own one.[/QUOTE]
NO real trainer thinks that because a dog is a Pit Bull it must be bad or that because it bit someone it must be a Pit Bull. Here’s a big injection of that sensationalism and emotion that isn’t educational and just hurts your stance.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=khall;7508562]
My state does require pet breeders to have a license. Some states do, all should.

S, because of this statement of which I think it is so true. Approximately 10 people a day get bit by a dog but it is only news when it is a pit bull.

No, it’s only news when it’s a severe attack or killing. Once again, dog bites and dog attacks are 2 entirely different things.

I am not saying there are not dangerous pit bull type dogs out there, dangerous to other dogs, sometimes but not all the time in my experience. Dangerous to people, can be but not in most of my experience and yes the damage done by a pit bull can be horrible as in the case of all big powerful breeds. Does that mean all pit bull type dogs should be euthanized on site? Not in my opinion, take each dog as an individual. Owners need to be responsible and no not everyone needs to own a pit bull type dog. No large powerful breed should be a first time dog owner dog. No one who is not able to train and keep under control should own a big powerful breed. That is my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Your attitude of “if I didn’t see it, it didn’t happen” really restricts your world view. My personal experiences certainly inform my decisions and opinions, but many other factors come into play. There’s no way one person can experience enough on a topic this broad to operate solely based on personal experience. The facts, as disturbing as they are, just can’t be ignored or wished away.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7508572]
S1969-you STILL have not said how you think that being a licensed breeder will affect the people who are already doing illegal things with their dogs. Do you honestly think Mr Gangleader and Mr Dogfighter are going to say, “Oh, I need to go get a license”? I mean, really?

For the record, I am not against the idea. It couldn’t hurt. But I DO NOT think this is a good solution.[/QUOTE]

Maybe not, but when they get caught one way or another breeding, selling, etc. they will be held accountable. If you don’t make laws because people won’t follow them, you never make laws.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7508612]
I wouldn’t be against this idea but I don’t think it would work. Yes, AC could go after them. But in my town, my ACO doesn’t even have an email address. She is too busy going after dogs who are loose in town or doing other stuff. I can’t imagine she would have the time to start looking for breeders.
The ACOs are already busy enough and they don’t have the means or the time to go after illegal breeders (breeding without a license).
My ACO doesn’t carry a weapon. I can’t IMAGINE going after Mr Gangbanger with nothing but her good nature (not that there are any gangbangers in my small town).
Once again, I think this comes down to making the ACOs have MORE power and control. Giving current laws more “teeth” (pun intended).

It is not in my best interest as a pit bull owner and lover to have the bad guys breeding pit bulls. I’d LOVE to see a way to fix this. But there are already laws on the books that can be used to go after these guys. But ACOs are not about arresting people.[/QUOTE]

Once there are laws in place, these become police issues. Your poor, overworked ACO would have plenty of help.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=fargaloo;7508626]
My question is: in areas without BSL, where do most pit bulls come from?..Are there many good, responsible breeders who are selecting breeding dogs for “family friendly” temperament, make sure the puppies are well socialized, and make sure that prospective owners are well-matched to the breed?[/QUOTE]

In areas with & without BSL, the dogs come from backyard breeders of a wide variety of intents from never got around to altering to “I can sell blue ones for money!” The first person who shows up with cash, gets a puppy.

A public shelter in a BSL county is full of pit bulls. They label the nice ones Bulldog, Boxer, or Lab mixes. Based on their numbers, the Cane and Presa are the new pit bull.

Especially with these breeds, I think the only responsible breeders compete. I have the same belief about Shih Tzus, Lhasas, and Yorkies :lol:. Show dogs have such a different phenotype I don’t think they are a factor because that typey dog might not be labeled a “pit bull” but a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Olde English, etc.

[JackieBlue]

A public shelter in any county is full of Pit Bulls. Why would there be more Pits in counties where they’re legislated?

[scierra]

JackieBlue, if in the above post you were saying the attack in San Francisco was done by Pits, that is wrong. The dogs were Presas. If that wasn’t what you meant I’m sorry. Those dogs had been reported earlier for aggressive behavior, don’t know if there was a bite history or not, but AC knew about them. If there had been a dangerous dog law in place, and enforced, that tragedy might have been avoided. From what I recall about that case the owners of the dogs were just as unstable as the dogs.

I don’t fall into calling any dog a nanny dog. I try my hardest to educate one person at a time about the breeds I love. If I am out in public and come across someone who is afraid, or uncomfortable with my dog I get out of their way. If possible I try to address the fear, without pushing any agenda, just letting them know I have my dog under control, and with that approach I have changed a few minds. If kids want to meet my dog, I ask the parent first if it’s ok, and the explain how to approach a strange dog. A little informal education can go a long way. I am not a “fur baby” type person. I hate that! I take owning at risk breeds very seriously. But I will say that having certain breeds or types is discrimination.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=scierra;7508709]
JackieBlue, if in the above post you were saying the attack in San Francisco was done by Pits, that is wrong. The dogs were Presas. If that wasn’t what you meant I’m sorry. Those dogs had been reported earlier for aggressive behavior, don’t know if there was a bite history or not, but AC knew about them. If there had been a dangerous dog law in place, and enforced, that tragedy might have been avoided. From what I recall about that case the owners of the dogs were just as unstable as the dogs.

I don’t fall into calling any dog a nanny dog. I try my hardest to educate one person at a time about the breeds I love. If I am out in public and come across someone who is afraid, or uncomfortable with my dog I get out of their way. If possible I try to address the fear, without pushing any agenda, just letting them know I have my dog under control, and with that approach I have changed a few minds. If kids want to meet my dog, I ask the parent first if it’s ok, and the explain how to approach a strange dog. A little informal education can go a long way. I am not a “fur baby” type person. I hate that! I take owning at risk breeds very seriously. But I will say that having certain breeds or types is discrimination.[/QUOTE]

Oh geez. I was referring to the 130 lb. dog who just killed 4 year old Mia DeRouen that everyone keeps saying wasn’t a Pit because it was so large. It was an “XL” from UKC registered APBT breeding stock.

[scierra]

Sorry, I misunderstood. The dog you were posting about is an oversized Pit. There is no reason for breeding bigger, badder Pits. The standard, for what it is worth, is for a medium sized dog. It’s the same as idiot breeders going for huge Rotts or Dobes.

[khall]

I am familiar with Ga licensing in the stable license (I own/run a boarding stable, very very small!), it gives Ga Dept of Ag the right to come and hold an inspection at any time. I have been inspected before, of course no trouble. I have some experience with Ga Dept of Ag in the rescue world as well. They are pretty good at regulating rescues which I totally agree with! Being in rescue I know how idiotic some of the rescues can be. It is often more about quantity than quality, which I disagree with and then some. Can the state do a better job with protecting the animals? yes, but it is a start at least. Gets officials foot in the door so to speak.

Why I have trouble with pit bull attack stories, from personal experience I have seen where AC, police, and news mis-identifies the dog as a pit bull. Or mistakenly identify based on the dogs look only as in the case in KC (BSL legislation on books there) I posted and which AC was proven wrong to the tune of $1800 board on the dog.
Local AC mis-identifying a dog http://www.co.bibb.ga.us/AnimalWelfare/petharbor_dogs.aspx

Lucky that I have posted before, mis-identified by police and news as pit bull, she is all hound and in the rescue I deal with.

[JackieBlue]

A misidentification here and there doesn’t account for the overwhelming majority of fatalities and severe attacks being caused by Pit Bulls and their crosses. I’m sorry, but every time a Pit Bull advocate throws out a case or 2 of misidentification, they invite someone to restate the hard numbers of deaths and maulings caused by Pits and Pit crosses. I’m not against Pit Bulls. I don’t want to ban the breed. But I’m not “for” any breed to the point of trying to argue away fact. The sooner more dog lovers adopt a realistic stance, the sooner we’ll actually make some headway in improving the plight of Pit Bulls and other at risk breeds in the US.

[Kat_Renee]

Here is the update - http://www.wafb.com/story/25140606/pit-bull-that-killed-4-year-old-girl-tests-negative-for-rabies

[khall]

Jackie per American Humane Society, not just pit bull advocates!
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/breed-specific-legislation.html

Pay particular attention to #4 please
4. Better bite reporting4,5,7,8,9,10,11,12
Researchers agree that better statistics on dog bites could greatly improve our ability to firmly identify the factors that should be the primary focus for improving public safety. Research to date is primarily based on incomplete police and hospital records, as well as newspaper articles. Incomplete data includes failure to record the location of bites, age and sex of the dog, age and sex of the victim, circumstances surrounding the bites and accurate breed identification.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=khall;7508890]
Jackie per American Humane Society, not just pit bull advocates!
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/breed-specific-legislation.html

Pay particular attention to #4 please
4. Better bite reporting4,5,7,8,9,10,11,12
Researchers agree that better statistics on dog bites could greatly improve our ability to firmly identify the factors that should be the primary focus for improving public safety. Research to date is primarily based on incomplete police and hospital records, as well as newspaper articles. Incomplete data includes failure to record the location of bites, age and sex of the dog, age and sex of the victim, circumstances surrounding the bites and accurate breed identification.[/QUOTE]

No one is arguing that sometimes any breed can be misidentified. No one is arguing that better records need to be kept. But to act as if we have no idea what type of dog is killing the most humans is ignorant and reckless.
Here’s a report on the dead Mississippi toddler (killed yesterday) with a clear photo of one of the dogs involved.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594529/Tragedy-boy-3-mauled-death-two-family-pit-bulls-despite-mothers-desperate-attempts-save-him.html

[khall]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7508902 But to act as if we have no idea what type of dog is killing the most humans is ignorant and reckless.

We will have to agree to disagree since I do not think every dog bite fatality can be laid on the door of pit bulls.

[JackieBlue]

No one, I repeat, no one, has said that every DBRF is attributable to Pit Bulls. Like so many things in life, this is not an “all or none” issue. Just because you haven’t witnessed these attacks doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. Just because you don’t want them to have happened, doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. I know. It SUCKS. But you can’t just wish real life away or pretend that your limited, individual experiences in rural Georgia trump what’s actually going on in the world.

[S1969]

[I]

[QUOTE=khall;7508914]
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7508902 But to act as if we have no idea what type of dog is killing the most humans is ignorant and reckless.

We will have to agree to disagree since I do not think every dog bite fatality can be laid on the door of pit bulls[/I].

No one said EVERY fatality can be laid on the door of pit bulls.

However…how many people were fatally mauled in the last 30 days by something other than a pit bull?

How many pit bulls brutally mauled (but did not kill) human beings in the last 30 days? How many other breeds mauled (not just bit) people in the last month?

Dog bites and maulings are not the same. All dogs can bite. No one argues that they can’t or don’t.