I’m not sure if she’s saying we really don’t know what kinds of dogs are responsible (photos and owner id’s in all the attacks this week and last alone) or if she’s saying it’s not ignorant and reckless to pretend we don’t know. Either way, it’s just silly.
Why didn’t authorities test for steroids?
In my area they are imported in large numbers by assorted rescues. And while there is absolutely some breeding of them going on, the majority seem to come through rescue groups and are adopted out already spayed and neutered. I don’t know if he’s still active in the breed, but I did at one point know someone who did health testing and bred wonderful, good tempered ones that he competed in weight pulling with. His were smaller than many currently seen, 40 pounds max for the boys. Looked more like Am Staffs. And he would be the only person involved with the breed that I’ve met with a long range breeding plan.
[QUOTE=HorsePrerace;7509003]
Why didn’t authorities test for steroids?[/QUOTE]
From WAFB’s article:
“Police also asked Terrebonne Parish Animal Control to test the dog for steroids, but that test could not be administered because the dog is dead. If steroids were found in the dog’s system, criminal charges could have been filed.”
Too bad. I was hoping that they would be able to test for that. Of course, seeing what people have found about that dog’s bloodlines, I don’t think that would have been the cause…
The best study done on dog bite fatalities and breed was not one of the factors that was identified.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/
What I am seeing in threads and in many anti pit bull sites is blaming the breed of dog. That is just too simplistic in my opinion. There are so many factors that are involved in fatalities and maulings in addition to breed of dog (which may or may not be identified correctly). Did you see the conditions the people were living in where the 3 yr old Miss boy died? Can you imagine what, if any kind of training those dogs had, were they a true member of the family (above study shows most often NO) were they altered, heck those people were barely hanging on themselves by the skin of their teeth, much less being able to care for two powerful dogs in a manner needed by the breed. That to me is a classic case of owners who should not own any dog much less a powerful breed. Owners need to be more thoughtful and educated before owning such a powerful breed like pit bulls or Rotties etc. Not for the average person. That to me is the significant problem is who is owning these dogs that bite, maul, kill. like my former bait dog foster was more than likely owned by a gang banger locally. No training, no socializing as a puppy, no basic vet care (HW+), yet with training she has become one of the most balanced dogs I have been around.
Again it is not about the BREED or type of dog, it is about the individual and as study showed many factors relating and leading up to the attack.
This to me was eye opening
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2009%20Final%20Report%20DBRF.pdf
[QUOTE=fargaloo;7508626]
I have a question and I swear I am not trolling – I really am reading the arguments on both sides and trying to learn as much as I can here.
I don’t have a lot of experience with pit bulls (breed or type). I live in an area that has had BSL for some time. My question is: in areas without BSL, where do most pit bulls come from? I hear that rescues are flooded with them in some areas, and of course we hear about breeding for fighting. Are there many good, responsible breeders who are selecting breeding dogs for “family friendly” temperament, make sure the puppies are well socialized, and make sure that prospective owners are well-matched to the breed? Are they the majority or the minority – or do we even know?
Thanks![/QUOTE]
Most of the ones I know come from shelters and rescues; some imported to this area as puppies. But there are some breeders around here, and I have seen some breeder websites where they claim to do health checks like CERF and OFA/PennHip, but others that clearly don’t (or at least don’t mention it…which means they don’t.)
I think the rest are produced by “backyard” breeders that just take the two dogs they have and produce puppies for money; like this:
Blue nose bullies ,purebred ,many colors silver,blue,black,black n white, taking deposits will be ready in 3 weeks ,choose yours today 6 left!! Male and female…MOM and dad on premises weigh in 100 + pounds big heads very stalky and short,very strong breed. $300.
[QUOTE=khall;7509259]
The best study done on dog bite fatalities and breed was not one of the factors that was identified.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/
What I am seeing in threads and in many anti pit bull sites is blaming the breed of dog. That is just too simplistic in my opinion. There are so many factors that are involved in fatalities and maulings in addition to breed of dog (which may or may not be identified correctly). Did you see the conditions the people were living in where the 3 yr old Miss boy died? Can you imagine what, if any kind of training those dogs had, were they a true member of the family (above study shows most often NO) were they altered, heck those people were barely hanging on themselves by the skin of their teeth, much less being able to care for two powerful dogs in a manner needed by the breed. That to me is a classic case of owners who should not own any dog much less a powerful breed. Owners need to be more thoughtful and educated before owning such a powerful breed like pit bulls or Rotties etc. Not for the average person. That to me is the significant problem is who is owning these dogs that bite, maul, kill. like my former bait dog foster was more than likely owned by a gang banger locally. No training, no socializing as a puppy, no basic vet care (HW+), yet with training she has become one of the most balanced dogs I have been around.
Again it is not about the BREED or type of dog, it is about the individual and as study showed many factors relating and leading up to the attack.[/QUOTE]
Jane Berkey owns the National Canine Research Council. Don’t expect to see fair and balanced.
[QUOTE=khall;7509259]
The best study done on dog bite fatalities and breed was not one of the factors that was identified.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/
What I am seeing in threads and in many anti pit bull sites is blaming the breed of dog. That is just too simplistic in my opinion. There are so many factors that are involved in fatalities and maulings in addition to breed of dog (which may or may not be identified correctly). Did you see the conditions the people were living in where the 3 yr old Miss boy died? Can you imagine what, if any kind of training those dogs had, were they a true member of the family (above study shows most often NO) were they altered, heck those people were barely hanging on themselves by the skin of their teeth, much less being able to care for two powerful dogs in a manner needed by the breed. That to me is a classic case of owners who should not own any dog much less a powerful breed. Owners need to be more thoughtful and educated before owning such a powerful breed like pit bulls or Rotties etc. Not for the average person. That to me is the significant problem is who is owning these dogs that bite, maul, kill. like my former bait dog foster was more than likely owned by a gang banger locally. No training, no socializing as a puppy, no basic vet care (HW+), yet with training she has become one of the most balanced dogs I have been around.
Again it is not about the BREED or type of dog, it is about the individual and as study showed many factors relating and leading up to the attack.
This to me was eye opening
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2009%20Final%20Report%20DBRF.pdf[/QUOTE]
People like that Mississippi family own all kinds of dogs and yet, Pits are still leading the DBRFs and mailings. They didn’t deserve to lose a child, no matter how they struggle to make ends meet.
The entire problem with an individual approach this late in the game is that we are too highly populated - risk of dog/human contact gets higher and higher - and there are far too many dogs dying to keep taking chances. We can’t recognize a problem individual until after it becomes a problem. It SUCKS to have to legislate all dog owners because of a bad few, but we live in a society. We have to look at the big picture and what is best for everyone, not just best for me. We need to reduce numbers of all dogs in shelters, but come on. Pit Bulls are special when it comes to overpopulating them. More than a million euthanized every year. That is really, really sad. Clearly that won’t change without some sort of intervention. The attacks just this week are really, really sad. I honestly cannot believe that true lovers of the breed can’t recognize that there is a problem and don’t want to do something about it. Smh.
There is so much I do agree with you Jackie , I agree about too many pit bulls heck just plain too many dogs/cats of ANY breed are killed each day across the country. That is sad. It is sad when a child loses it’s life in any way, period, but statistically dog bites are minuscule in child deaths causes (which does not mean that any child’s death should be glossed over). There are just too many dogs/cats that are out there period, neglected, abused, dumped. I think that is part of the big picture. Education, outreach, help with basic vet care and training. That is part of the big picture. NOT BSLs, they are being shown to NOT be effective many states, counties, cities are repealing them now because of the cost that has not shown to change anything related to dog bite fatalities or maulings.
I think I have proven by my actions in my life to be a reasonable human being who looks at the animal issue as reasonably as I can, as overwhelming that it can be. I have personally had a pit bull type dog that I rescued PTS because of human aggression. I had no qualms about it. That is being responsible. PEOPLE need to be more responsible, not the breed of dogs. Legislating against certain breeds is being shown again and again NOT to work. It is people who have caused this crisis, the dogs came about because of PEOPLE not being responsible. Educate, help, reach out, don’t blame/ban.
[QUOTE=khall;7509259]
The best study done on dog bite fatalities and breed was not one of the factors that was identified.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/
What I am seeing in threads and in many anti pit bull sites is blaming the breed of dog. That is just too simplistic in my opinion. There are so many factors that are involved in fatalities and maulings in addition to breed of dog (which may or may not be identified correctly). [/QUOTE]
Well…sure. Of course there are many factors involved. BUT, to eliminate dog breed from this study doesn’t make it go away.
These statistics are interesting:
Based on an analysis of all DBRFs known to have occurred over a ten-year period, the researchers identified a striking co-occurrence of multiple, controllable factors:
• no able-bodied person being present to intervene (87.1%);
• the victim having no familiar relationship with the dog(s) (85.2%);
• the dog(s) owner failing to neuter/spay the dog(s)(84.4%);
• a victim’s compromised ability, whether based on age or physical condition, to manage their interactions with the dog(s) (77.4%);
• the owner keeping dog(s) as resident dog(s), rather than as family pet(s) (76.2%);
• the owner’s prior mismanagement of the dog(s) (37.5%);
• the owner’s abuse or neglect of dog(s) (21.1%).
But if 90% of the dogs in question are pit bulls/pit mixes, how is that NOT also relevant? (I don’t know the statistic, I am just giving an example).
It would only be irrelevant if there wasn’t any sort of correlation between maulings and breeds…and the onlyl common factors were the ones listed above… But, that’s not the case.
S, ok can you show each time their is a mauling or fatality attributed to a pit bull type of dog, that report is 100% correct? Yes the LA 4 yr old and Miss 3 yr old were pit bull type dogs, what about others? Have you seen pictures? You cannot always look and identify the breed or cross breed of dog i.e., KC dog that was shown by DNA testing to be 1/16th Staffie, no pit bull in there otherwise. BSL legislation at work there. Or like I said litter of pups that I personally knew and saw, out of pit bull type female, father unknown. They all looked like Husky mixes, every single one of them. Unless you have DNA analysis (with any unregistered dog that is) very often you cannot 100% reliably determine breed of dog. That is what Humane Society has shown, I posted that link. They are Not a pit bull advocate, but an animal advocate.
[QUOTE=khall;7509420]
S, ok can you show each time their is a mauling or fatality attributed to a pit bull type of dog, that report is 100% correct? Yes the LA 4 yr old and Miss 3 yr old were pit bull type dogs, what about others? Have you seen pictures? You cannot always look and identify the breed or cross breed of dog i.e., KC dog that was shown by DNA testing to be 1/16th Staffie, no pit bull in there otherwise. BSL legislation at work there. Or like I said litter of pups that I personally knew and saw, out of pit bull type female, father unknown. They all looked like Husky mixes, every single one of them. Unless you have DNA analysis (with any unregistered dog that is) very often you cannot 100% reliably determine breed of dog. That is what Humane Society has shown, I posted that link. They are Not a pit bull advocate, but an animal advocate.[/QUOTE]
Can I? No. Can someone? I sure think so. And I think a fair number of these dogs are identified by the owner as pit bulls, bully pits, or pit mixes. I think it’s often very clear that the dog is not a beagle after it has been caught/shot.
Is it possible to get confused and misidentify a breed while a dog is running after someone? Of course. Are some dogs truly Heinz 57 mixes? Sure. Maybe there is a lab/beagle out there that mauled someone. But I would still guess that the “pit types” still rank #1 the list, purebred or not.
Saying it’s unfair to label “pit bulls” as the culprits because they are not 100% DNA proven pit bulls is ridiculous.
Believe me, someone took pictures of the dog(s) that mauled and/or killed a human being. If pit-bull proponents want, they could research the maulings and fatalities and probably get pictures. I’m sure there are some Akita types, Malamute types, and Rottweiler types in there as well; pit types are certainly not the only ones.
S, again see link
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/breed-specific-legislation.html
#4 in particular
4. Better bite reporting4,5,7,8,9,10,11,12
Researchers agree that better statistics on dog bites could greatly improve our ability to firmly identify the factors that should be the primary focus for improving public safety. Research to date is primarily based on incomplete police and hospital records, as well as newspaper articles. Incomplete data includes failure to record the location of bites, age and sex of the dog, age and sex of the victim, circumstances surrounding the bites and accurate breed identification.
Take a close look at this report, pretty intensive.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2009%20Final%20Report%20DBRF.pdf
[QUOTE=khall;7509502]
S, again see link
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/breed-specific-legislation.html
#4 in particular
4. Better bite reporting4,5,7,8,9,10,11,12
Researchers agree that better statistics on dog bites could greatly improve our ability to firmly identify the factors that should be the primary focus for improving public safety. Research to date is primarily based on incomplete police and hospital records, as well as newspaper articles. Incomplete data includes failure to record the location of bites, age and sex of the dog, age and sex of the victim, circumstances surrounding the bites and accurate breed identification.
Take a close look at this report, pretty intensive.
Again national Canine Research Council is owned by Jane Berkey. You’re not going to get anything close to honest information from a website owned by her.
[QUOTE=khall;7509373]
There is so much I do agree with you Jackie , I agree about too many pit bulls heck just plain too many dogs/cats of ANY breed are killed each day across the country. That is sad. It is sad when a child loses it’s life in any way, period, but statistically dog bites are minuscule in child deaths causes (which does not mean that any child’s death should be glossed over). There are just too many dogs/cats that are out there period, neglected, abused, dumped. I think that is part of the big picture. Education, outreach, help with basic vet care and training. That is part of the big picture. NOT BSLs, they are being shown to NOT be effective many states, counties, cities are repealing them now because of the cost that has not shown to change anything related to dog bite fatalities or maulings.
I think I have proven by my actions in my life to be a reasonable human being who looks at the animal issue as reasonably as I can, as overwhelming that it can be. I have personally had a pit bull type dog that I rescued PTS because of human aggression. I had no qualms about it. That is being responsible. PEOPLE need to be more responsible, not the breed of dogs. Legislating against certain breeds is being shown again and again NOT to work. It is people who have caused this crisis, the dogs came about because of PEOPLE not being responsible. Educate, help, reach out, don’t blame/ban.[/QUOTE]
What makes dogs killing kids SO sickening, no matter how infrequently, although the incidence is on the rise, is how unnecessary a loss it is. How preventable it should have and can be. One child is too many. Pit Bull proponents say that legislation naming breeds doesn’t work. But they say so many things… I don’t want a ban. But other BSL, when implemented correctly, could literally be a matter of life and death. Again, we know damn well what dogs and in which situations are most likely to be deadly or very destructive. It’s ignorant and reckless to pretend that we don’t.
Laura K the first quote is by American Humane Society, not National Canine Research. It is not just the pro pit proponents who have figured out that breed biases do not work. One community I read about spent over $250,000 on BSL legislation, pit bull type dogs. Nothing CHANGED in bite frequency/fatalities, they are repealing the BSL as is so many other communities.
National Canine Research is not just a website, take a look at the advisors and staff there. http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/about-us/staff/ http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/about-us/advisors/
That is not just one person’s pro pit bull agenda like dogbite is anti pit bull.
Jackie, where do have you seen that dog bite fatalities are on the rise? What I have seen has shown it to be pretty stable with slight increases and decreases depending on the year.
Again it is not just pro pit proponents that are figuring out BSLs do NOT work!! Local governments,states have figured that out themselves by trying BSLs.
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/breed-specific-legislation.html Not pro pit proponents
per ASPCA http://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/dog-fighting/breed-specific-legislation
Are Breed-Specific Laws Effective?
There is no evidence that breed-specific laws—which are costly and difficult to enforce—make communities safer for people or companion animals. For example, Prince George’s County, MD, spends more than $250,000 annually to enforce its ban on Pit Bulls. In 2003, a study conducted by the county on the ban’s effectiveness noted that “public safety is not improved as a result of [the ban],” and that “there is no transgression committed by owner or animal that is not covered by another, non-breed specific portion of the Animal Control Code (i.e., vicious animal, nuisance animal, leash laws).”
Following a thorough study of human fatalities resulting from dog bites, the United States Centers for Disease Control (CDC) decided not to support BSL. The CDC cited, among other problems, the inaccuracy of dog bite data and the difficulty in identifying dog breeds (especially true of mixed-breed dogs). The CDC also noted the likelihood that as certain breeds are regulated, those who exploit dogs by making them aggressive will replace them with other, unregulated breeds.
per AKC
The American Kennel Club (AKC) strongly supports dangerous dog control. Dog control legislation must be reasonable, non-discriminatory and enforceable as detailed in the AKC Position Statement.
To provide communities with the most effective dangerous dog control possible, laws must not be breed specific. Instead of holding all dog owners accountable for their behavior, breed specific laws place restrictions only on the owners of certain breeds of dogs. If specific breeds are banned, owners of these breeds intent on using their dogs for malicious purposes, such as dog fighting or criminal activities, will simply change to another breed of dog and continue to jeopardize public safety.
Strongly enforced dog control laws such as leash laws, generic guidelines for dealing with dangerous dogs and increased public education efforts to promote responsible dog ownership are all positive ways to protect communities from dangerous dogs. Increasing public education efforts is significant because it helps address the root cause of the problem — irresponsible dog owners.
The AKC and the purebred dog fancy have worked together to promote non-breed specific dangerous dog control legislation throughout the country. Concerned dog lovers are encouraged to serve on or start animal control advisory boards to monitor problems and help develop reasonable solutions to dangerous dog issues. The AKC can help by providing model legislation that can be tailored to the needs of individual communities.
The NCR is a pit advocacy organization. The staff page features 4 people; 2 are shown with pit bulls. That’s 50% of their staff. Pits are about 7% of the canine population. I realize that the pit flood of magazines and photo books and HuffPo stroke jobs featuring “pitty smiles!” has made pit bull owners think they really are the majority, but they’re a miniscule group. An animal organization with 50% of its staff being pit owners is an animal organization with a bias.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/about-us/staff/
Apart from that, none of the people shown have any research or behavioral credentials - their real-world careers seem to include law enforcement, marketing, and management, but the real focus of their lives has been animal advocacy. The dogsbite site clearly has a POV, but it also uses direct source material to support its POV. NCRC doesn’t use anything except the idea that their animal rescue experts are actually dog experts. We’ve all seen enough rescue implosions to know this isn’t the case.
[QUOTE=khall;7509847]
Laura K the first quote is by American Humane Society, not National Canine Research. It is not just the pro pit proponents who have figured out that breed biases do not work. One community I read about spent over $250,000 on BSL legislation, pit bull type dogs. Nothing CHANGED in bite frequency/fatalities, they are repealing the BSL as is so many other communities.
National Canine Research is not just a website, take a look at the advisors and staff there. http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/about-us/staff/ http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/about-us/advisors/
That is not just one person’s pro pit bull agenda like dogbite is anti pit bull.[/QUOTE]
I’m not pro or anti BSL…and it’s not all banning. Perhaps the dog breeds most often implicated in serious bites, maulings and deaths should receive heightened scrutiny, higher license fees, require liability insurance.
And of course we should be strongly encouraging spay and neuter. Maybe extremely high license fees for intact dogs and an incentive for neuter/spay. Carrot and stick.
Personally, I think if you’re breeding dogs, you should have to have a license and some type of instruction and testing. I am so sick and tired of those backyard breeders who breed what they’ve got to what they’ve got. And for God’s sake, let’s shut down the puppy mills for once and for all.
Utah just became the 19th state to not allow BSL throughout the state.
