For the people worrying about the lack of a steroid test, or wondering why “haters” don’t realize that it’s crapstastic trailer-trash owners who create evil pits, or who attribute anti-pit comments to the misguided commenter never having met a “properly socialized” and presumably well-bred, trained APBT, I have a question. Even if you’re right about direct causes of pit bull attacks, why do you think it matters? The problem isn’t the direct “trigger” in each case, it’s the fact that typical, normal situations - another dog walks past the house, a child wails, a man knocks at the door - trigger one variety of dog more than any other. Dogs have been mishandled, poorly bred, abused and neglected ever since they first took up with us as humans. Up until the past few decades, very few people were ever killed by a dog. Then somehow, there’s an explosion and now we’re at what, 3 people mauled to death in the last week? The explanation isn’t abuse and neglect; people are far kinder and more involved with their dogs than previously. This includes many pit bull owners, and many pit bulls, including those that have attacked. Mickey on its chain was one side of the pit bull attack stories; the XL American Bully that killed the little girl was the other - well fed, well loved family pets and show dogs, pampered and groomed and integrated into the family TV hour.
I really believe that it’s the “fur baby” mentality that causes some of the problems. At least where a family pet is concerned. In a lot of the mauling sit isn’t a family pet that attacked. The common threads are intact, under socialized, chained, no training and owners who are clueless on the ownership of powerful dogs.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7509953]
I’m not pro or anti BSL…and it’s not all banning. Perhaps the dog breeds most often implicated in serious bites, maulings and deaths should receive heightened scrutiny, higher license fees, require liability insurance.
khall replied:
There are already dangerous dog laws, no need for scrutiny of breeds and again who determines the breed? Not shown to be reliable in so many cases where the dog is not registered.
And of course we should be strongly encouraging spay and neuter. Maybe extremely high license fees for intact dogs and an incentive for neuter/spay. Carrot and stick.
Khall:
I totally agree about altering of animals, but again don’t be biased (though I think the free spaying of pit bull types locally is an excellent program), all unregistered pets should be altered, breeders should be licensed and scrutinized for many reasons. Again, I feel outreach and education is very important. Especially locally to me. Dogs are not treated as treasured pets here, how I have 3 of my 4 personal dogs, road finds. Re-homed I don’t know how many found within 10 miles of my farm.
Personally, I think if you’re breeding dogs, you should have to have a license and some type of instruction and testing. I am so sick and tired of those backyard breeders who breed what they’ve got to what they’ve got. And for God’s sake, let’s shut down the puppy mills for once and for all.[/QUOTE]
Amen to that!
vacation, go ahead and believe what you want to believe. I have a 4 day riding clinic to host. I think I have put my thoughts and beliefs out there and backed them up with unbiased research. There are so many unwanted animal issues that rescues deal with locally here, serious abuse and neglect and just sheer stupid (one of my neighbors did not want to have her really nice boxer intact male dog neutered because it might make him a sissy, direct quote there) I know where my attention and energies should be directed. Have fun debating BSLs and pit bulls.
And here we go again:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2014/04/04/mesa-area-woman-mauled-by-dog/7333473/
That’s not what I would call an “attack”. I’d say “Woman bitten when intervening in dog fight.” I also would say that this is not newsworthy.
[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7513955]
That’s not what I would call an “attack”. I’d say “Woman bitten when intervening in dog fight.” I also would say that this is not newsworthy.[/QUOTE]
Witnesses say they thought her wrist was severed except for the skin. That’s quite a “bite”.
I don’t worry about the breed, but about proven aggressive, and vicious dogs that are allowed to exist until something happens to a person, or their animals, and tragedy happens. There was a case in Colorado where a woman was attacked, and killed. The animals involved had also attacked a passing jogger months earlier, and the person was horribly injured, and will never be the same person. The local prosecutor said there were no laws in the county about vicious dogs, however there is a Colorado state law about this, and enforcement of that law might have saved the poor woman’s life. The owner also failed to restrain the animals even after attacks they knew about, and because of that I believe she received a jail sentence. Unfortunately the jogger, and other woman received much more permanent sentences from the owner’s animals. The laws are there in most cases, and need to be enforced.
People kill more people then dogs kill. I mean I’d much rather walk past a pit bull then through a shady neighborhood.
[QUOTE=S1969;7514119]
Witnesses say they thought her wrist was severed except for the skin. That’s quite a “bite”.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I’m not surprised that it was a serious bite. Rottweilers have about 330 pounds in their bite, GSD’s have about 240. I’m not sure what pit bull bite strength is, but certainly it is powerful.
My distinction is that the dog bit her arm and hand, and didn’t attack her body or face.
I would be afraid to separate fighting pit bulls when I wouldn’t be afraid with some other big dogs.
ETA I looked for an update and see there is some discrepancy in the reporting on the breeds of the dogs. One is definitely a pit bull terrier and there is disagreement about whether the second dog is a pit bull or a Rottweiler. Either way, whichever dog bit her may have thought it was biting the other dog from the description of the event.
It is always dangerous to separate fighting dogs, always. Use a water hose! My husband has been bitten separating our hound and my sister’s Dane X. Neither were people aggressive in any way, he just got caught in the middle.
When a “reach in” bite during a dog fight results in the reacher-inner getting airlifted to a hospital, it’s newsworthy.
The suggestion of using a water hose to dislodge a pit bull would be funny if it wasn’t so misleading.
this thread hasn’t ended yet? Persistent lot, aren’t you?
[QUOTE=vacation1;7515046]
When a “reach in” bite during a dog fight results in the reacher-inner getting airlifted to a hospital, it’s newsworthy.
The suggestion of using a water hose to dislodge a pit bull would be funny if it wasn’t so misleading.[/QUOTE]
The dog did dislodge from the woman without anyone stopping it. It stopped. This was not your usual attack. This was a mistake.
Here’s the latest on the dog’s “breed”, and news that he was intact with an in heat female in the small apartment. Apparently steroids were also found in the house. The quote from the breeder - and the number of puppies he has sired - is…well, unsurprising.
A link with more photos is here: http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/04/houma_pit_bull_may_have_been_i.html
Also, the media is not longer calling it a “pit bull” attack, so why are we? http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/04/houma_pit_bull_owners_mum_on_d.html
The Houma dog that killed its owners’ 4-year-old daughter appears to have been the product of inbreeding and may have been the progeny of a dog known to produce aggressive offspring, according to online discussions among breeders in the wake of the March 24 attack.
Niko, a 130-pound un-neutered male, was in the apartment with a young female who was in heat at the time of the attack, according to reports.
“It was a situation that never should have happened,” said Jane Cannon, a former breeder and a pit bull owner from Covington who knew Niko and his master, Kerri Dominique. “An intact male can become very territorial when it’s around a female in heat. If it’s an unstable dog, it’s just a disaster waiting to happen.”
Apart from leaving the dog confined in an apartment alongside humans and female dog in heat, Dominque did everything right with Niko, ensuring he was cared for, exercised and properly socialized, Cannon said, but that wasn’t enough to keep his family safe.
Efforts to reach Dominique were unsuccessful. Niko was killed by police after the attack.
Unlike early reports that described Niko as a pit bull, the animal could more accurately be described as an American bully, a pit-bull derivative, according to Cannon. Whereas pit bulls conforming to the breed standard max out at around 60 pounds, American bullies have been bred to be more than twice as large through the introduction of bull mastiff genetic material.
In 2013, the American bully was recognized as a separate breed by the United Kennel Club, though Niko was not registered as either a pit bull or an American bully, according to the organization.
The American bully has become extremely popular in the last decade, gaining a following across the globe, according to Cannon.
With that popularity has come the opportunity to make money. It’s not uncommon for XL-variety bullies from famous bloodlines to sell for $5,000 or more.
With that much money at stake, many breeders have paid more attention to size and strength than temperament, Cannon said, resulting in the proliferation of aggression and inbreeding in the gene pool.
According to some in the tight-knit world of bully breeders, that’s exactly what happened with Niko.
Almost immediately after Niko’s attack, reports began to surface on internet forums of human aggression in dogs related to Niko and especially his father, a 130-pound dog named Kimbo, famous in bully breeding circles for producing massive offspring.
On The XL Evolution forum, a Facebook group for bully enthusiasts and breeders, a California man named Zach Dank shared his story.
“I’m gutted that little girl died. I feel partly responsible for not taking a strong enough stand 4 years ago when I was viciously attacked by my Kimbo son … I slept with him, loved him, took him swimming everyday at the river. One day I was swimming in about 10 foot deep water and he swam out to me and started snapping his jaws at my face for no reason at all. I could see in his eyes that he was mentally gone. I tried to push his head away so I could swim to shore. As I did this, he got my full forearm in his mouth … He snapped both bones in my arm and ripped all my forearm musucles in half.”
Eventually, Dank said, he got free and managed to stop the dog before he got to two nearby children.
Dank said that he contacted Kimbo’s owner, a California breeder named Gustavo Castro, to warn him that the dog may be producing unstable offspring. “I told him that if he didn’t stop breeding Kimbo, that a child was going to get killed one day.” That attack took place in 2010, two years before the Kimbo breeding that produced Niko.
Other owners of Kimbo offspring chimed in to say they had had trouble with their dogs having aggression issues as well. Some said they were forced to put their dogs down as a result.
Dank did not respond to requests for additional comment.
Some on the forum pointed out that Kimbo has sired hundreds of dogs, so it was unfair to blame him for attacks by a few of his offspring, but many said that it was irresponsible to continue to breed a dog known to pass down or “throw” human aggression.
Castro, reached by Facebook and a phone message left at his kennel, UCK’s Most Wanted, did not respond to requests for comment.
However, as the Houma attack blew up on the XL Evolution forum, he did respond to accusations that he was an irresponsible breeder:
“I’m sorry for the tragedy and loss of an innosent child. I cant imagine how her family feels i myself have 6 daughters. Kimbo has hundreds of offspring around even family have them and never did i get any complaint or problems. Im doing research as to what happened and why this dog did what it did. Kimbo will not be breed until we find out exactly what happenned.”
His response drew a huge backlash from many fellow breeders who, pointing to the Dank attack, said that no “investigation” was necessary, that Kimbo should have been neutered then. In light of Niko’s attack, there can no longer be a question, they said.
An online registry of bully pedigrees shows that Kimbo appears to be the result of heavy inbreeding. His parents were siblings, and his grandparents shared the same sire.
Inbreeding is widely believed among breeders to produce dogs with unstable temperaments.
As conversations on The XL Evolution continued, owners of Kimbo’s progeny began to surface, concerned that they might have a potential disaster for a pet.
Among them, Alley Taylor, who said she owned one of Niko’s litter mates. “I wish when i asked for opinions on Kimbo blood, i wish i go the truth instead of finding out through here,” she wrote.
Cannon said that Dominique, an aspiring breeder, mated Niko once for a friend. It’s unclear what happened to the resulting litter.
The second article lacks credibility “the dog was almost three times the size of a normal pit bull” Hmmmm 130 divided by 60 is much closer to two time…Do I hold all pit bulls responsible for Niko’s conduct? No. Do I accept that Niko was not a pit bull? No. The link below discusses this issue.
Niko’s owner was the boyfriend of the mother. “Dominique” is the boyfriend. He has a kennel where he sells Niko’s puppies. There are pictures of Niko with his son as well as with the little girl who was killed.
I did not see in the article where it stated that they found steroids in the home. However, I suspect that they had him on steroids in preparation for that show designation where his stud fee would have been significantly increased from the current $1500. Do steroids impact dog’s behavior? Probably. While I don’t think that this reflects on all pit bulls, I also think that Niko was a pit bull.
Niko’s stud fee was advertised as $1500. There are photos of his ad and there are photos of his last litter of puppies advertised for sale.
The mother’s boyfriend, Kerri Dominique, owned the kennel - perhaps they all lived in the same house, but that was never stated.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2014/03/2014-dog-bite-fatality-family-pit-bull-kills-houma-girl.html
and the kennel page with the owner’s young son
[QUOTE=Justmyluck;7514528]
People kill more people then dogs kill. I mean I’d much rather walk past a pit bull then through a shady neighborhood.[/QUOTE]
Here, many of the pit bulls are in the shady neighborhoods.
it’s not so much me, but my dogs i worry about.
[QUOTE=khall;7514962]
It is always dangerous to separate fighting dogs, always. Use a water hose! My husband has been bitten separating our hound and my sister’s Dane X. Neither were people aggressive in any way, he just got caught in the middle.[/QUOTE]
No, never, ever make fighting dogs wet…if they are truly fighting it won’t break them up and makes them harder to grip…I have seen this method attempted a few times with poor results. In my experience, the best method to breaking a fight up is choking the dogs, you cannot fight/grip without air flow to your brain. I know that sounds brutal but it usually takes seconds and you are able to remove them from the situation at the same time.
I am a firm believer in knowing your breed and being an educated handler, hence why me and the boyfriend are well-versed in breaking up fights, because Pits can be dog aggressive. Never put your hands in their faces, never use water.
I think there’s a lot of good debate on this thread (I admittedly have not read it all), but I still stand behind my belief that Pit Bulls are no more dangerous than many other dog breeds, they just far too often are in the wrong hands. These are not beginner dogs and while dog aggression is not present in all Pits, it is present in many in varying degrees and needs to be acknowledged and managed appropriately.
The redirection on humans is not characteristic of a purebred Pit (APBT, Staffie Bull and Am Staff).
You definitely cannot believe everything the media and “witnesses” report. I can vouch for that fact, I read many media stories on events/situations I deal with directly at work and they are almost always full of wrong/misinformation and exaggeration. Also FYI (I have vacation blocked but saw it quoted), MANY people are unnecessarily airlifted, I hesitate to call an injury serious due to an airlift…I have seen someone airlifted and directly discharged on arrival, on multiple occasions.
[QUOTE=khall;7514962]
It is always dangerous to separate fighting dogs, always. Use a water hose! My husband has been bitten separating our hound and my sister’s Dane X. Neither were people aggressive in any way, he just got caught in the middle.[/QUOTE]
True that breaking up fights is dangerous, but I never, ever endorse using water and making fighting dogs wet…if they are truly fighting it won’t necessarily break them up and if it doesn’t it makes them harder to grip…I have seen this method attempted a few times with poor results. In my experience, the best method to breaking a fight up is choking the dogs, you cannot fight/grip without air flow to your brain. I know that sounds brutal but it usually takes seconds and you are able to remove them from the situation at the same time. I am a firm believer in knowing your breed and being an educated handler. Never put your hands in their faces, never use water.
I think there’s a lot of good debate on this thread (I admittedly have not read it all), but I still stand behind my belief that Pit Bulls are no more dangerous than many other dog breeds, they just far too often are in the wrong hands. These are not beginner dogs and while dog aggression is not present in all Pits, it is present in many in varying degrees and needs to be acknowledged and managed appropriately. The redirection on humans is not characteristic of a purebred Pit (APBT, Staffie Bull and Am Staff).
You definitely cannot believe everything the media and “witnesses” report. I can vouch for that fact, I read many media stories on events/situations I deal with directly at work and they are almost always full of wrong/misinformation and exaggeration. Also FYI (I have vacation blocked but saw it quoted), MANY people are unnecessarily airlifted, I hesitate to call an injury serious due to an airlift…I have seen someone airlifted and directly discharged on arrival, on multiple occasions.
