Another fatal Pit Bull attack....

[MistyBlue]

Unfortunately the grabbing and shaking was bred into the various pit types/breeds for better dog fighting.
The bulldog origin (not modern old English bulldogs) was bred specifically for 2 traits: Going for the face/head and grabbing and holding on without letting go regardless of what was happening. The original bulldogs were used for either livestock handling (around fractious bulls) or large animal sport baiting. (bulls, bears, etc) The jaws are shaped specifically for that, the under-bite for better grip and being able to breath while not letting go or having to adjust their grip.

When large animal baiting was outlawed they started fighting the dogs against one another. They added in smaller dogs for better agility, choosing various types of terriers due to the matching “never back down, never let go” and adding in the desirable shaking. Terriers grab and shake. It’s how they kill, what they were designed for. Killing pests. The fast snapping shake from a fast agile dog without a meek bone in it’s body was what kept the small dogs from being injured by rats or whatever they were bred to go after. Shaking when holding on to another dog increased damage, the terrier personality added more chutzpah to the bully personality.

Overly human aggressive dogs were culled mercilessly.

Nowadays and for many generations nobody culls them like they used to be.

So in short the AmStaff, APBT, et al are all predisposed to be dog aggressive, aim for the head, bite and shake. Will they all do that? No, just like all bassets won’t chase rabbits. And all huskies won’t try to yank you off your feet when leashed.
BUT, when any of these dogs do something completely and totally out of the blue without any input from it’s human or any indication from the way it was raised and handled but something it was specifically created for…we shouldn’t be shocked or surprised or pretend our love/regard for it nullifies it’s genetic-bred traits.

As stated before…it does not make any of these dogs bad, it makes them exactly what they were created for. And they can be bred, raised, handled and owned by people with little to no incidents.
HOWEVER…some breeds/types really really really benefit from only being bred, raised, handled and owned by a very small percentage of experienced, realistic people. There simply isn’t any public relations angles or propaganda that’s going to change that.

[JackieBlue]

khall, that was one dog. Is it written anywhere that it was originally labeled a Pit?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=khall;7499433]
Do I think the bully breeds or any of the big powerful breeds should be owned without thought? NO

Do I think there is a large number of “pit bulls” that breed indiscriminately? Yes, but that is true of labs as well as many other breeds.

Do I think that there are mixed breed dogs mislabeled as a “pit bull”? Yes

If you look at the statistics of number of supposedly “pit bulls” in the US that actually bite/fatally wound to the total number of “pit bulls” in the US (I have heard the figure to be around 6 million) the number is very small that actually do go rogue compared to the many who are loving members of their family.

I too do not understand being fearful or blaming an entire “breed” or type of dog. It is the people who should be blamed and their irresponsible ownership and care of their animals. Being in rescue I see it all of the time. .[/QUOTE]

Sigh. I actually agree with you.

BUT. It seems that pit bulls (and bully types and mixes) ARE bred indiscriminately, and are very often placed in the hands of the worst types of owners.

The reason people are fearful and blame the “type” (and I won’t say “breed” because SO MANY of these dogs are not actually deliberately bred…they are just reproducing) - this “type” is extremely powerful and has been incriminated in many incidents - some fatal.

My dogs are simply NOT capable of that kind of physical damage, even if they went totally beserk.

I am a dog lover and really don’t have prejudices against breeds - I show my dog and have NEVER been afraid of walking him by any grouping of dogs waiting ringside (which, if you’ve never done it, can be intimidating).

I AM, however, prejudiced against “bully types” because they so often come with owners who know next to nothing about breeding, socializing and safety - they are a big bundle of “what ifs”. Add to that the fact that everyone knows that some pit bulls/bully types have gone beserk and mauled and killed people and other dogs…they are hard to trust unless you know them extremely well.

However, I have mentioned before that we have friends with a big pit puppy. I would NEVER let him near my dogs. He could kill them so easily, and I don’t trust that his breeding or his training enough to overcome my prejudice.

[khall]

Jackieblue, yes the news a local station did identify the dog as a “pit bull”, that came directly from the police.

Just wanted to share the report on one of my former fosters, a APBT former bait dog, Petunia.

Petunia is doing AMAZING in her new home!!! She was loving it!! Her new parents called her the best dog they have ever had. They have not had any issues what so ever. She has even made some friends with other dogs in the neighborhood! Today, her and her daddy napped until we went for the home check, and then were going to go for a walk and play time. Perfect home and no issues so you can rest assured that she is in the best home she could have!

[threedogpack]

@MistyBlue;7499443

Unfortunately the grabbing and shaking was bred into the various pit types/breeds for better dog fighting.

the grabbing and shaking, is a trait of most dogs. Including my Papillons. The 4# one is the one most likely to grab and shake her toy when we play. It is not a trait that is specific to bull type dogs. When it manifests to the extent of killing another being, there is something else going on and it’s most likely going to be frustration build up.

[VCT]

The point that some people are trying to make is that many dog attacks are totally incorrectly reported as pit bull attacks. Not all. But plenty… plenty of them are not pit bulls or bully types AT ALL. Boxers, Lab crosses, Rottys, etc. I’ve even heard of a Boston Terrier being mislabeled as a pit bull type when it acted aggressively.

So yeah, not all reports are accurate. And if you want to ban pit bulls, where does it end?
American Pit Bull Terriers?
Staffordshire Terriers?
American Bulldogs?
Cane Corsos?
Neapolitans?
Dogos?
All terriers?
etc etc etc…

Some of the countries you mention that have banned the bully/pit breeds have also banned many many others… Italy’s banned dog breed list was over 79 breeds last I looked into it.

BSL doesn’t work.

Maybe eventually your Labradors will be banned. Personally I hate Labs - every single one of the MANY I have known in my life have been obnoxious, unimaginably destructive, mentally imbalanced dogs and many of them have in fact, been aggressive. Would NEVER own one.

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7499482]
the grabbing and shaking, is a trait of most dogs. Including my Papillons. The 4# one is the one most likely to grab and shake her toy when we play. It is not a trait that is specific to bull type dogs. When it manifests to the extent of killing another being, there is something else going on and it’s most likely going to be frustration build up.[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t explain why other breeds, which are also frequently frustrated (my dog spends her life endlessly frustrated because she’s not allowed to eat people food, my neighbors have Danes that are endlessly frustrated because their batshit owners never take them outside, etc.), aren’t also starring in endless headlines. Sure, some malamutes killed a child recently and several breeds have had maulings/killings in their record but there are nowhere near the numbers in any other breed or type. And it’s not the size. Where are all the frustrated, mauling Danes and Labs and German Shepherds? Yes, you can find them, but it would take you maybe 20 minutes to find all the fatal GSD attacks in recorded history. You couldn’t finish a list of pit attacks in a lifetime because they keep happening.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=vacation1;7499549]
That doesn’t explain why other breeds, which are also frequently frustrated (my dog spends her life endlessly frustrated because she’s not allowed to eat people food, my neighbors have Danes that are endlessly frustrated because their batshit owners never take them outside, etc.), aren’t also starring in endless headlines. Sure, some malamutes killed a child recently and several breeds have had maulings/killings in their record but there are nowhere near the numbers in any other breed or type. And it’s not the size. Where are all the frustrated, mauling Danes and Labs and German Shepherds? Yes, you can find them, but it would take you maybe 20 minutes to find all the fatal GSD attacks in recorded history. You couldn’t finish a list of pit attacks in a lifetime because they keep happening.[/QUOTE]

vacation1, first of all, what you read is what the news chooses to report. What they choose to report is totally up to them. HOW they choose to describe the dogs involved is also up to them. So perhaps there are some attacks by GSD or 100# all americans or primitive breeds or northern breeds, I don’t know. The news media is in the business of selling news and right now, the pitbull seems to be selling news.

second, the [i]only thing[/i] I am discussing is the behavior of grabbing and shaking, and why that might have been mentioned here. I’m not speaking to breed or type, I’m not speaking to gender or size.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7499443]
Unfortunately the grabbing and shaking was bred into the various pit types/breeds for better dog fighting.
The bulldog origin (not modern old English bulldogs) was bred specifically for 2 traits: Going for the face/head and grabbing and holding on without letting go regardless of what was happening. The original bulldogs were used for either livestock handling (around fractious bulls) or large animal sport baiting. (bulls, bears, etc) The jaws are shaped specifically for that, the under-bite for better grip and being able to breath while not letting go or having to adjust their grip.

When large animal baiting was outlawed they started fighting the dogs against one another. They added in smaller dogs for better agility, choosing various types of terriers due to the matching “never back down, never let go” and adding in the desirable shaking. Terriers grab and shake. It’s how they kill, what they were designed for. Killing pests. The fast snapping shake from a fast agile dog without a meek bone in it’s body was what kept the small dogs from being injured by rats or whatever they were bred to go after. Shaking when holding on to another dog increased damage, the terrier personality added more chutzpah to the bully personality.

Overly human aggressive dogs were culled mercilessly.

Nowadays and for many generations nobody culls them like they used to be.

So in short the AmStaff, APBT, et al are all predisposed to be dog aggressive, aim for the head, bite and shake. Will they all do that? No, just like all bassets won’t chase rabbits. And all huskies won’t try to yank you off your feet when leashed.
BUT, when any of these dogs do something completely and totally out of the blue without any input from it’s human or any indication from the way it was raised and handled but something it was specifically created for…we shouldn’t be shocked or surprised or pretend our love/regard for it nullifies it’s genetic-bred traits.

As stated before…it does not make any of these dogs bad, it makes them exactly what they were created for. And they can be bred, raised, handled and owned by people with little to no incidents.
HOWEVER…some breeds/types really really really benefit from only being bred, raised, handled and owned by a very small percentage of experienced, realistic people. There simply isn’t any public relations angles or propaganda that’s going to change that.[/QUOTE]

AMEN, Sista!

[MustangSavvy]

The term Pit Bull refers to many different breeds of dogs. No one really knows what Pit bulls are, including the police and animal control. I see it time and time again working at a humane society. If you think the police and animal control get proper training you are sadly misinformed. They constantly get things wrong we have even had AC bring in a dog that they thought was dead to put in our freezer that wasn’t actually dead. We always double check.

BSL is not the answer. It is ignorance and fear mongering, pure and simple. Look at Denver verses Boulder. Denver has a BSL and they have killed thousands of innocent dogs and dogs that do not even fall under the ban, because they are poorly educated. Denver also hasn’t reduced the number of bites or fatalities. While, Boulder takes the stance of punish the deed not the breed. Boulder hasn’t had any fatal bites or anything for a long time. Education is key. Not bans, bans create more issues then good. As we have seen time and time again.

[Lin]

If you want to talk about “grabbing and shaking” we had a collie cross that did a great job on kittens and groundhogs, and none of our hounds had to be taught the technique. Came naturally.

[khall]

Very interesting article on dog bite statistics.

http://www.thedogpress.com/Columns/Dog-BiteStatisics-09_Jade.asp

Mustangsally, so true, I see it coming from the rescue world. Just so many dogs look bully but often are not. Police and AC are the worst at identifying breeds and eye witness reports are notoriously unreliable.

[shayaalliard]

from the article:
2-year-old, 130-pound dog

That’s not a pit bull. It just isn’t. The problem as I see it are the IDIOT breeders making these monstrosities. That dog looks like a hypp h/h QH in the pictures.

Pits were/are meant to be a 40-45 lb mid sized dog which is EXTREMELY safe with humans (and NOT safe with other animals). And, it isn’t the fighters who are breeding mean and huge into them- it’s the wannabe tough guys who used to ask me if we sold dog steroids and weights.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=khall;7499433]
Coyoteco, did you bother to look at the dog shot that was identified in the news and by police local to me as a “pit bull”? Her name is Lucky now, and she is all hound, loves children, very sweet.

Mis identifying the breed of the dog is so common.

Do I think the bully breeds or any of the big powerful breeds should be owned without thought? NO

Do I think there is a large number of “pit bulls” that breed indiscriminately? Yes, but that is true of labs as well as many other breeds.

Do I think that there are mixed breed dogs mislabeled as a “pit bull”? Yes

If you look at the statistics of number of supposedly “pit bulls” in the US that actually bite/fatally wound to the total number of “pit bulls” in the US (I have heard the figure to be around 6 million) the number is very small that actually do go rogue compared to the many who are loving members of their family.

?Another very common “point” made by the Pro-Pit camp. While the percentage of Pits that maul and kill humans may be small, the irreparable damage done by these dogs is too much. I’m not anti-Pit Bull, but I’m anti-shredakid and it seems that Pit Bulls do more of that than other breeds. Something needs to change.

I too do not understand being fearful or blaming an entire “breed” or type of dog. It is the people who should be blamed and their irresponsible ownership and care of their animals. Being in rescue I see it all of the time.

Yet another commonly used argument by Pro-Pit types. No one is “blaming” and an entire breed. But a breed IS a classification and in this case, it groups dogs that were bred for power and aggression against other dogs. These days the breeding isn’t so careful and while the power and aggression carries through, those with misplaced aggression are allowed to continue to contribute to the gene pool. So, members of this breed are responsible for many, many maulings and an inordinate number of deaths. Honestly, it doesn’t matter who’s to blame - the dog, the owner, the victim - it happens often enough with this one breed in order for many variables to eliminate themselves. The breed does matter, in this case.

“pit bulls” and their type are some of my favorite breeds, very people oriented and want to please which is why they do end up in the fighting arena, they are just wanting to please their owners.[/QUOTE]

No, they end up in the fighting arena because that’s what they were purpose bred to do.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=VCT;7499539]
The point that some people are trying to make is that many dog attacks are totally incorrectly reported as pit bull attacks. Not all. But plenty… plenty of them are not pit bulls or bully types AT ALL. Boxers, Lab crosses, Rottys, etc. I’ve even heard of a Boston Terrier being mislabeled as a pit bull type when it acted aggressively.

So yeah, not all reports are accurate. And if you want to ban pit bulls, where does it end?
American Pit Bull Terriers?
Staffordshire Terriers?
American Bulldogs?
Cane Corsos?
Neapolitans?
Dogos?
All terriers?
etc etc etc…

Some of the countries you mention that have banned the bully/pit breeds have also banned many many others… Italy’s banned dog breed list was over 79 breeds last I looked into it.

BSL doesn’t work.

Maybe eventually your Labradors will be banned. Personally I hate Labs - every single one of the MANY I have known in my life have been obnoxious, unimaginably destructive, mentally imbalanced dogs and many of them have in fact, been aggressive. Would NEVER own one.[/QUOTE]

Who’s talking banning or BSL? And whose Labradors are you talking about? ??

[chronos]

Look. I own a pit bull and she lovves me so much! Never blame the breed. Who cares about some stupid 4 year old girl? It was her fault for being near a pitbull. Pitbulls arre the most peaceful dog breed ever!

[shayaalliard]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7498543]
I understand that you want to defend the breed but I think pit bull people may go about it in the wrong way. When the wonderful “cat lady” (so not a derogatory term - she was such a wonderful person from the description) was killed by the pit bull mix that was 60 pounds, the pit bull people said it was a “mastiff” which, of course, wasn’t true as they are 120 plus pounds. Now, you say this pit bull (or pit bull mix which is the same thing) isn’t a pit bull because of reports of its estimated weight.

Someone said it was a Cane Corso - how realistic is that?

So, yes, the police are reporting that it’s a pit bull. The photos show it to look like a pit bull.

Time will tell, I suppose, if it’s a pit bull or a Cane Corso (I’d lol if it weren’t so heartbreaking).

How can you support a breed without recognizing its flawed individuals?[/QUOTE]

If you are talking about the cat lady I think you are, it was in my town. The dogs were later confirmed by the owners as corso/mastiff mixes- they are pretty common around here among the drug types. NOT a breed I would trust in any but the best hands, and those owners were not. The follow up never got much publicity because “pit bull kills person” sells more papers as it were.

Pit bulls bite A LOT LESS than several other breeds. The top breed for bites has typically been the cocker spaniel. The problem is, if cockers bite 500 people, and no one dies, and pit bulls bite 50 people but 5 die, thats a scarier stat. The problem isn’t that they are normally vicious- they aren’t. The problem is that when one does attack- usually through no fault of it’s own (training,etc is fault of owner)- it has the sheer power and strength to do a lot of damage.

I worked the store in the bad part of town. The fighters were my customers. I met a LOT of Pit Bulls, Corsos, and a couple bears.

When I moved to the "nice side of town store, where the customers were wannabes instead of actual criminals, then I had one Pitt come over the counter at me. I had very little warning, and the owner had no control. Luckily I’m quick, and the guy pulled him back down. He would have killed me if he could.

In that time I got bitten repeatedly by grandma’s sweet little popsicle. Those dogs were MUCH less commonly in the store, and Much more aggressive- but the scars are a whole lot smaller.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=chronos;7499620]
Look. I own a pit bull and she lovves me so much! Never blame the breed. Who cares about some stupid 4 year old girl? It was her fault for being near a pitbull. Pitbulls arre the most peaceful dog breed ever![/QUOTE]

:lol:

Thanks for trolling.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=shayaalliard;7499594]
The problem as I see it are the IDIOT breeders making these monstrosities. [/QUOTE]

Agreed 100%. Even the small but vicious ones.

So…what is the solution?? Maybe we can spay and neuter the stupid breeders.

[shayaalliard]

I wonder if perhaps you could legislate that only pits who have passed the CGC test are permitted? Say by 6 months old, as a condition of the license?

Rather than banning the breed, it bans untrained dogs who are more likely to be a problem. I know that criminals would still have them, but they still have them under BSL too, and it gives the GOOD dog owners a way to keep their dogs who are not problems.

AKC could do a lot by requiring CGC on parents to register a litter too. It will never happen $$$ but I bet it could work.