Another fatal Pit Bull attack....

[chancellor2]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7498891]
I’ll ignore your disrespectful goading and point out that we’re not talking about the ability of adoption centers and shelters to identify pure and mixed breeds. “No one can identify a Pit Bull” is a tactic in the Pit Bull advocacy argument brought about to draw attention away from the real subject. It’s a game. I choose not to play. Yes, the avg. human is an idjit when it comes to breed identification. That doesn’t change that Pit Bulls are responsible for more human deaths than all other breeds combined.[/QUOTE]

Good LORD. Do you even read what you write???
Pit bulls are responsible for more human deaths than all other breeds combined. And just HOW are they identified?

shakes head Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience…

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7498905]
Good LORD. Do you even read what you write???
Pit bulls are responsible for more human deaths than all other breeds combined. And just HOW are they identified?

shakes head Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience…[/QUOTE]

You, my dear, are a class act.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7498905]
Good LORD. Do you even read what you write???
Pit bulls are responsible for more human deaths than all other breeds combined. And just HOW are they identified? [/QUOTE]

Why does it really matter, though? Can’t we say pit bulls and bully mixes and cover all the same facts? It’s not like all of these dogs are purebred, pedigreed animals. How could anyone actually identify any mixed breed - but does it truly matter?

I suppose it matters if you’re going to specifically ban “pit bulls”…because most owners couldn’t provide any sort of information about their dog’s “breed”. But as far as which ones are the crazy ones that attack people…I doubt there is much difference between “pit bull” versus “pit bull mix” anyway (even if you could prove the breeding).

[MistyBlue]

For arguments’ sake let’s say that half of the reported pit bull/pit cross maulings and deaths are mis-identified. That would be an enormous proportion of misidentifications.

Even then, they’re still more than double the next breed listed.

Certain types of dog are more apt to maul (which is more apt to cause death also) than other types that bite. Obviously larger/stonger dogs cause more/worse injuries.

Breeds outside of the “maul” group also cause quite a few emergency room trips, but for 1 or 2 serious bites as opposed to grabbed and shaking repeatedly. Rotties, Boxers, Mastiffs and Pit types are the types to bite repeatedly and shake. They’re also more likely to go for the face and head than other types of dogs.

The number of each breed also contributes greatly to the statistics. Akitas are well known for being notoriously risky in the behavior department, even more so than pits/pit types. But there are far fewer of the breed than pits.

The amount of pits/pit types/pit crosses out there with the propensity of their penchant for grabbing and shaking repeatedly as opposed to snapping/biting and moving away with their size/strength with their propensity to be intact due to owner ignorance as opposed to being intact due to owner experience and handling ability and their propensity to be owned/bred often for nefarious reasons and that another huge proportion of them are owned by people with the inability or unwillingness to accept the breed/types’ ability to display it’s innate traits unexpectedly is the cause of them being such a liability far more often than other breeds.

[khall]

It DOES change that pit bulls are misidentified as the dog that causes the fatalities more often than not. And for the person who said that AC could identify pit bulls or various breeds, well I can point you to a local AC who has some wild guesses and ones that I don’t agree with very often on the breed identification.

Very often it is the police who are identifying the breed of dog that has bitten, it usually is a police/AC matter. Let me show you a dog that was shot by local police supposedly fatally (she was not killed, but was shot 3 times, and was identified as a dangerous “pit bull” chasing kids) who was taken in by the rescue I work with.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/438108609651814/ Does that look like a pit bull to you? so do not believe all of the accounts of the bad “pit bulls” that reported in the news.

[LauraKY]

Here’s the other thing about genetics…I’m looking for the link. The gene that confers the head conformation and therefore the pitbull look. In any case, a mix is as likely to take on the characteristics of the other breed as the pitbull.

I’m not defending an aggressive pitbull, but I am saying that you can’t slam an entire breed for the actions of some. I don’t understand hating an entire breed of dog. On the other hand, when someone posts on the forum looking for a dog compatible with the family, particularly someone new to dogs and the pitbull enthusiasts try to claim that a pitbull will make a great family pet? Well…sometimes, not always.

I have to say, they are not a dog for most newbies newbie, anymore than a chow chow or one of the guarding breeds. You pitbull lovers do more damage trying to push pitbulls on to people who shouldn’t have them than you do to help the breed, IMO.

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/truth-about-pit-bulls

[S1969]

[QUOTE=khall;7499109]
It DOES change that pit bulls are misidentified as the dog that causes the fatalities more often than not. And for the person who said that AC could identify pit bulls or various breeds, well I can point you to a local AC who has some wild guesses and ones that I don’t agree with very often on the breed identification.

Very often it is the police who are identifying the breed of dog that has bitten, it usually is a police/AC matter. Let me show you a dog that was shot by local police supposedly fatally (she was not killed, but was shot 3 times, and was identified as a dangerous “pit bull” chasing kids) who was taken in by the rescue I work with.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/438108609651814/ Does that look like a pit bull to you? so do not believe all of the accounts of the bad “pit bulls” that reported in the news.[/QUOTE]

But what does it actually change, other than the reputation of the breed? Whether it was a pit bull, bully mix, or a beagle…if it was actually chasing kids, what should AC have done differently?

The point still remains that more of the “bully” dogs are responsible for the severe biting/mauling and fatalities than any other type of dog. It really doesn’t matter to ME if it is a “pit bull” or a “pit bull mix” or a “pit/lab” or anything else. It only matters to you because people make assumptions about your breed based on the police reports…but it’s not like there is no basis for prejudice.

No one doubts that there are very nice pit bulls and “bully types”…but when one isn’t nice it can cause some severe damage…much more than many other TYPES. And unfortunately, they are grossly overrepresented in the shelters, which means that people are breeding them, or simply not spaying/neutering them.

The “breeders” are the breed’s own worst enemy.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7498988]
The amount of pits/pit types/pit crosses out there with the propensity of their penchant for grabbing and shaking repeatedly as opposed to snapping/biting and moving away with their size/strength with their propensity to be intact due to owner ignorance as opposed to being intact due to owner experience and handling ability and their propensity to be owned/bred often for nefarious reasons and that another huge proportion of them are owned by people with the inability or unwillingness to accept the breed/types’ ability to display it’s innate traits unexpectedly is the cause of them being such a liability far more often than other breeds.[/QUOTE]

"penchant for grabbing and shaking repeatedly as opposed to snapping/biting and moving away "

this may be due to many reasons, and may have nothing to do with the breed.

grabbing and shaking is often related to a low threshold for frustration which is, in turn, often linked to being tied or confined (barrier frustration). Guess why the dogs are often tied out? Inability to lower the aggression inside the home.

genetics probably play a huge role too.

[threedogpack]

Guess why the dogs are often tied out? Inability to lower the aggression inside the home.

I should have finished that thought. Inability to lower the aggression inside the home is directly and negatively influenced by either lack of training (which is probably the case in many of these situations) and or genetics. When the dogs get tied out, and they experience increased frustration with no appropriate outlet, combined with no, little or poor training, the outcome ain’t gonna be good.

[khall]

No S the point is that very often the breed is mis identified/mis labeled as in the case of “Lucky” who more than likely was not chasing kids on the bike from eye witness reports. Cop was trigger happy and from other eye witnesses was high 5ing his partner saying first kill of the year (yet with 3 shots he did not kill this poor hound who actually loves kids according to her foster, afraid of men, not a surprise).

So you basing your information on news reports of “pit bull” attacks, yeah unless you witnessed the attack yourself and KNEW the pedigree of the attacking dog, take the report with several large grains of salt.

[Coyoteco]

OK, so what are people now considering a “pit bull” I just saw the comments to an article saying that this dog was a “American Bully” and that that means it is not a pit bull. So, really before I can understand the statistics and the defenses of pit bulls because of mis-identification, I just want to know “what is a pit bull”.

The dog in this story apparently is registered as some specific breed. What breeds qualify as “pit bulls”?

[Coyoteco]

This is the description of the American Bully. This is a ridiculous description of any dog and is clearly intended to deceive.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/a/americanbully.htm

[JackieBlue]

No matter what Pit Bull proponents want us to believe, “mistaken identity” does not explain away what Pit Bulls and Bully types repeatedly do to people. Look, these are not unicorns, dragons or some sort of mythical creature. They don’t vanish like a fart in the wind after they savagely maul a child. Many are perfectly recognizable for what they are and plenty of people can identify them. I say again, “No one can identify a Pit Bull” is propaganda. It’s a PR strategy. It’s bull $hit.
Sure, occasionally a dog is misidentified. More often, they’re not.

[RaeHughes]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;7498878]
The “I CAN DEFINITELY IDENTIFY a pit bull” is getting pretty tired too because no one can.

Here…here is a whole bunch of interesting reading for you. I’m guessing you won’t however.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/breed-identification-1/[/QUOTE]

If you DEFINITELY cant identify a Pit, how do you know that the loveable child hugging dogs that you claim are exemplary models of perfect pits? Yep, they may be as the more general “dogs” (and good on your training and their core temperament - seriously meant!) but you have self-identified them as Pit Bull Terriers. In most cases of these attacks, the dog-owners have self-identified their dogs as PBTs - everyone who is passionate about this breed but cant accept that there has been a lot of bad/random/with-absolutely-no-sense breeding/handling/“training” with that breed are doing a dis-service to their beloved dogs.

Shhheezz - you can id a BC or a BCX, a Lab or LabX, a Boxer or Boxer X, a GSD or GSDX, a mastiff or mastiff X (and, yes, I can!). SO, if the PBT is such a great dog, why cant you positively ID it? If you can, then you can stop this uncalled for negative impression of your dog. If you cant, well great that your dog is good but you cant comment on the breed.

I have interacted with a number >20 owner-identified PBTs or PBTXs. I have met two that were really great loveable dogs - both over 6 years old when their very conscientious owners relaxed finally. NONE were left alone with children or other pets. NONE. So, yes, highly disciplined owners with very well positively disciplined, well-exercised, obedient dogs - who knew very well what the dogs were capable of and had them before relationships/children/etc who were not going to just give up on their dogs. (One was competing as an obedience dog - in the ring, during the stays, the handler had permission from the kennel club for it to wear a muzzle. Just in case. No-one ever suspected that it would suddenly turn it was just a precaution.) How many are still alive? TWO! The others “turned” - of the 18+ I had the vaguest suspicion that they might “turn”, 3 - and they were last-chance-rescues who really were on their last chance. One guy, when I met him on one of our walks, was in tears as he had had to put his beautifult dog down - it had killed his cat that had been around from a puppy. His child was less than 4m away when the attack happened, under parental supervision. He simply couldnt take the chance and that dog had shown absolutely no evil intent before. Heck, it had sat there while a cat swung off it’s face for a reason only known to the cat! All it had done was cry and look pleadingly at “Dad” - who had rescued him.

I am a BC and Lab lover - fanatic some people may say :D. Passionate about both of these highly intelligent, trainable and lovable breeds. Would I recommend them for everyone - heck no! Well, not the BC :). Not by a long shot - must be very hard for a human to have a dog more intelligent than them. But, hey, BCs were bred to nip (if used as a cattle dog), to strong-eye a sheep, to move sheep with their energy/body language etc. Labs - phew! Have you looked at those teeth? The strength of the neck - well, they need that to carry the swans out of the swamp (ok! my favourite lab of all - a large black English Lab :).)

IMO, ALL dogs need to be positively disciplined to live within the present human society in which we all live. These animals have evolved with modern human over thousands of years - conmensual evolution IIRC. Too many of us are distant from the original uses of these animals and we all need to accept and work with that.

However, no-one does their favourite breed any favours by completely denying any negative traits. Further, if your favourite breed is involved in a mauling, please dont try and deny that is one of your favourite breed. IN NZ, at the moment, we have a # of people calling their dogs “Lab/Boxers Xs” when, well, there aint no lab in that dog!

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7499375]
No matter what Pit Bull proponents want us to believe, “mistaken identity” does not explain away what Pit Bulls and Bully types repeatedly do to people. Look, these are not unicorns, dragons or some sort of mythical creature. They don’t vanish like a fart in the wind after they savagely maul a child. Many are perfectly recognizable for what they are and plenty of people can identify them. I say again, “No one can identify a Pit Bull” is propaganda. It’s a PR strategy. It’s bull $hit.
Sure, occasionally a dog is misidentified. More often, they’re not.[/QUOTE]

My point, JackieBlue, is that I think there is a slight of hand going on here. Generally, “pit bull” has meant a dog belonging to one of a few breeds. It seems that some of the “misidentification” is more related to a narrowing of the definition of "pit bull’.

At one local paper, some commenters are saying that this dog is not a pit bull because he is registered as an American Bully. But, looking at the American Bully, it is what I would call a pit bull because it is a cross between an American Pit Bull Terrier and an American Staffordshire Terrier, both of which I have always understood to be “pit bulls”.

So, is the “misidentification” just a changing of the definition?

Or am I just wrong?

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7499363]
OK, so what are people now considering a “pit bull” I just saw the comments to an article saying that this dog was a “American Bully” and that that means it is not a pit bull. So, really before I can understand the statistics and the defenses of pit bulls because of mis-identification, I just want to know “what is a pit bull”.

The dog in this story apparently is registered as some specific breed. What breeds qualify as “pit bulls”?[/QUOTE]

Isn’t an “american bully” produced by crossing pit bulls and bull dogs? Thats like saying “this horse has nothing to do with arabians! Its an anglo arab!”

[JackieBlue]

No, I’m with you 100% Coyoteco. It’s what I was getting at, too, with the big picture and their claim that Pits just can’t be identified by anyone. It’s all a magic act to distract from the negative press these dogs (deservedly) get. If you keep changing what a Pit Bull is, of course no one can identify it! LOL!
I thought an American Bully was a Pit crossed with an American Bulldog. It still fits the bill in my book.

[Appsolute]

Isn’t an “american bully” a breed that was produced by cross PIT BULLS with other “bully breeds”?

In my book its the same as saying your anglo arab has nothing in common with an arabian.

[Coyoteco]

This article says American Bully results from crossing an American Pit Bull Terrier and an American Staffordshire Terrier with perhaps some bull dogs along the way. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/a/americanbully.htm

[khall]

Coyoteco, did you bother to look at the dog shot that was identified in the news and by police local to me as a “pit bull”? Her name is Lucky now, and she is all hound, loves children, very sweet.

Mis identifying the breed of the dog is so common.

Do I think the bully breeds or any of the big powerful breeds should be owned without thought? NO

Do I think there is a large number of “pit bulls” that breed indiscriminately? Yes, but that is true of labs as well as many other breeds.

Do I think that there are mixed breed dogs mislabeled as a “pit bull”? Yes

If you look at the statistics of number of supposedly “pit bulls” in the US that actually bite/fatally wound to the total number of “pit bulls” in the US (I have heard the figure to be around 6 million) the number is very small that actually do go rogue compared to the many who are loving members of their family.

I too do not understand being fearful or blaming an entire “breed” or type of dog. It is the people who should be blamed and their irresponsible ownership and care of their animals. Being in rescue I see it all of the time.

“pit bulls” and their type are some of my favorite breeds, very people oriented and want to please which is why they do end up in the fighting arena, they are just wanting to please their owners.