Another Green Horse, Green Rider Post

[BabyBays]

Long post alert.

To give some background, I purchased a horse early last year with the support and encouragement of my trainer. This is a “green horse, green rider” situation (it’s okay if you want to roll your eyes here). With that said, my gelding is not a young horse and has a great temperament and brain. I’m a fairly competent rider, but I’m not as strong as I’d like to be.

I’ve put a lot of time into my guy. I ride or do groundwork five times a week, one ride of which is a lesson. I get training rides when I can, but the money is just not there right now to make it a regular thing.

However, I was shocked to get chewed out by my trainer after one of these training rides. Because I was not “engaging” my horse in the right way he, according to my trainer, is just about falling apart. My trainer then went on to say how weak my horse is and how terrible he looks (“terrible” was an actual word used in this conversation).

I asked for feedback on how to improve my riding to help engage the hind end better, but was not given much for tangible feedback. Mind you, I’m already taking weekly lessons with this trainer. I would love to take more, but again, I can’t afford it right now.

I’m still feeling incredibly discouraged as I was under the impression I’ve made good progress with my horse. I don’t know if there are any answers beyond “learn to ride better,” but any thoughts on where to go from here?

Do I lower the amount of times I ride for now so I’m not ingraining bad behavior? Do I focus mostly on lounging and groundwork to build hind end strength? Do I try to look for a more experienced shareboarder? All of the above?

[m_m1]

Get a new trainer.

[Gardenhorse]

Agree with m&m. If the trainer tells you something is wrong, but gives no advice or exercises on how to fix it, doesn’t sound like he’s helping you much. He just wants you to pay for more training rides. Find someone who will help you ride your horse better yourself, not just pay them to ride him for you.

[KBC]

@m&m

Get a new trainer.

That’s about it!

[mug]

Do you have access to any hills? Start going up hills at a marching walk. Poles/cavaletti are great as well.

but yeah, if all your trainer can offer you is rude/blunt criticism without giving you concrete things to work on during your own rides? You need a new trainer

[SuzieQNutter]

You just need to remember that you are the product of your trainer’s training. What he is seeing is when he trained. So this is a reflection of him and not on you.

Stand back and look at your horse without a saddle on. What do you see? Do you see a happy horse. From what your trainer said I am guesing you are seeing a well muscled under neck and a dip in front of the saddle and probably a mane that is on more than once side of the neck. Is that right?

So what do you do from here.

1. Start pilates.

2. Get a trainer that can train you to improve the horse.

3. If you want the quickest way, you will ride a school master and a trainer will ride your horse to teach him not to be strung out. It sounds like this might have been happening with him, so you are ahead there.

The next step of collecting your horse and riding correctly I am afraid cannot be done alone. You can make sure you are riding sitting up and looking at the horizon. That your heels are down and there is line from your ear to your elbow to your hip, to your heel.

If you know how to lunge in side reins go ahead and do that. If you do not know how you need to be taught. It is not side reins that kill and maim horses it is people who do not know how to use side reins that kill and maim horses. They are not used to pull a horse in from front to back as I am sure you know by now that we ride back to front to back.

You want to see happy horse with correct muscles. The under neck should have no muscle. The top line should be muscled. The dip should disappear in front of the saddle. The mane comes on once side of the neck.

So let us know what level you think you are working at. 20m 15 m or 10m circles? Have you started lateral work? Can you do transitions with in the pace. How many different trots and canters do you have? Do you know how to collect? Those are things to start working on. With a good instructor preferably.

[Scribbler]

@BabyBays

Long post alert.

To give some background, I purchased a horse early last year with the support and encouragement of my trainer. This is a “green horse, green rider” situation (it’s okay if you want to roll your eyes here). With that said, my gelding is not a young horse and has a great temperament and brain. I’m a fairly competent rider, but I’m not as strong as I’d like to be.

I’ve put a lot of time into my guy. I ride or do groundwork five times a week, one ride of which is a lesson. I get training rides when I can, but the money is just not there right now to make it a regular thing.

However, I was shocked to get chewed out by my trainer after one of these training rides. Because I was not “engaging” my horse in the right way he, according to my trainer, is just about falling apart. My trainer then went on to say how weak my horse is and how terrible he looks (“terrible” was an actual word used in this conversation).

I asked for feedback on how to improve my riding to help engage the hind end better, but was not given much for tangible feedback. Mind you, I’m already taking weekly lessons with this trainer. I would love to take more, but again, I can’t afford it right now.

I’m still feeling incredibly discouraged as I was under the impression I’ve made good progress with my horse. I don’t know if there are any answers beyond “learn to ride better,” but any thoughts on where to go from here?

Do I lower the amount of times I ride for now so I’m not ingraining bad behavior? Do I focus mostly on lounging and groundwork to build hind end strength? Do I try to look for a more experienced shareboarder? All of the above?

New trainer.

A good trainer can give you practical exercises to help you build up your horse.

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah, I can put myself on blast all day long and say what is wrong with me and and my horse as a result of me, I don’t need to pay someone to do that! What I do need to pay for is someone that both identifies the problem and gives me the guidance to fix the problem. Otherwise, as a trainer, they’re pretty worthless.

So yes, you should get a new trainer. Green horse and green rider isn’t always a disaster, but since the odds are already not in your favor, a good trainer is imperative!

[Beck]

@SuzieQNutter

You just need to remember that you are the product of your trainer’s training. What he is seeing is when he trained. So this is a reflection of him and not on you.

As a coach, this assumption - that what we see is 100% the trainer’s ‘fault’ - is exactly why trainers get stressed and have moments when their professionalism can slip badly due to the frustration.

You say you bought this horse ‘early last year’. If this trainer has been working with you all that time, it is completely understandable that some frustration may have arisen if progress has been slower than hoped.

Yes: any progress is progress.
Yes: the trainer should make every effort to stay positive, supportive, and creative in offering approaches to encourage and develop progress.
Yes: trainers are human.

Consider that the trainers comments may have been merited. Blunt, but valid.
Consider that the trainer is ‘in’ this journey with you: they can become invested in your success (see comment above about how it is perceived to reflect on them!) and even on a personal level: a good trainer wants to see you and your horse succeed. From their point of view their efforts on your behalf may have been bigger than an outsider can appreciate.

An important part of the process and the trainer-client relationship is open dialogue. Good communication.
Be sure to tell them how you perceive your progress - yours and your horse’s. It takes a great deal of pressure off the trainer if they know you are happy with the rate of progress.
Be sure to tell them when and where you need clarification, verification, support.
It’s only fair. Trainers can often seem to be mind readers. They aren’t.

One blunt outburst does not necessarily mean you need to find a new trainer. Just because it is negative?
It sounds as though you have been happy thus far. It also sounds as though you and your trainer need to talk more.

It is a great plus that you appear to be willing to do your part in your horse’s development. Discuss it with your trainer. Try to explore the weaknesses and roadblocks together: if it becomes evident that is not going to work out, then consider changing trainers.

[BabyBays]

@SuzieQNutter

You just need to remember that you are the product of your trainer’s training. What he is seeing is when he trained. So this is a reflection of him and not on you.

Stand back and look at your horse without a saddle on. What do you see? Do you see a happy horse. From what your trainer said I am guesing you are seeing a well muscled under neck and a dip in front of the saddle and probably a mane that is on more than once side of the neck. Is that right?

So what do you do from here.

1. Start pilates.

2. Get a trainer that can train you to improve the horse.

3. If you want the quickest way, you will ride a school master and a trainer will ride your horse to teach him not to be strung out. It sounds like this might have been happening with him, so you are ahead there.

The next step of collecting your horse and riding correctly I am afraid cannot be done alone. You can make sure you are riding sitting up and looking at the horizon. That your heels are down and there is line from your ear to your elbow to your hip, to your heel.

If you know how to lunge in side reins go ahead and do that. If you do not know how you need to be taught. It is not side reins that kill and maim horses it is people who do not know how to use side reins that kill and maim horses. They are not used to pull a horse in from front to back as I am sure you know by now that we ride back to front to back.

You want to see happy horse with correct muscles. The under neck should have no muscle. The top line should be muscled. The dip should disappear in front of the saddle. The mane comes on once side of the neck.

So let us know what level you think you are working at. 20m 15 m or 10m circles? Have you started lateral work? Can you do transitions with in the pace. How many different trots and canters do you have? Do you know how to collect? Those are things to start working on. With a good instructor preferably.

Thank you for your response! My horse is well muscled through the neck and shoulder, but is definitely missing the muscle definition along his back from where he is not rounding and engaging his hind end. He connects on the front but disengages the back, which is our big problem.

Our walk/trot transitions have become relatively good. His trot is generally adjustable except when entering corners of the ring where he likes to speed up. When asking for a half halt his response is to push his head up before bending and relaxing through the corner. He often has a similar response coming out of the corner before relaxing down the long side. He is otherwise decent at navigating pole work and exercises such as spiraling in/out.

We spent so much time working on walk/trot that we are relatively new to canter work (I would say only within the last six weeks have I started cantering him twice a week). Circles and transitions have been quite a bit harder for this gait as he still seems to be learning his balance. He definitely has a penchant for wanting to take off into the canter, as opposed to lifting up into it.

It has been a while since I used side reins, so it may be time to unpack those again.

[Beck]

@BabyBays

We spent so much time working on walk/trot that we are relatively new to canter work (I would say only within the last six weeks have I started cantering him twice a week). Circles and transitions have been quite a bit harder for this gait as he still seems to be learning his balance. He definitely has a penchant for wanting to take off into the canter, as opposed to lifting up into it.

Nothing wrong with time spent on walk and trot! The trot work will prepare a horse for canter. ‘Testing’ by trying out a canter from time to time can tell you where you are relative to being ready in terms of balance and strength.

Where in the arena have you been making your canter transitions? It is a common tactic with greener horses (and riders) to make the transition to canter coming out of a corner - most riders find it easier to take advantage of the energy and mechanics of that situation. The downside being a horse can fall forward, out of balance, and dive into the canter. It can also become habit to do so. That may be difficult to contend with for the rider. If you have been tending to transition to canter after going through a corner, try doing it going into the turn/corner: the horse will be more disposed to sit back a bit and balance better on its own because it is preparing to negotiate a turn. The downside in this case being it may take a bit more support/effort from the rider to get that transition and to maintain the canter through the turn.

[CFFarm]

Go and play with your horse. Don’t just ride in a lesson. When I gave lessons I would sometimes tell my students to “just ride”. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes which both you and your horse will.

[SuzieQNutter]

@BabyBays

Thank you for your response! My horse is well muscled through the neck and shoulder, but is definitely missing the muscle definition along his back from where he is not rounding and engaging his hind end. He connects on the front but disengages the back, which is our big problem.

Our walk/trot transitions have become relatively good. His trot is generally adjustable except when entering corners of the ring where he likes to speed up. When asking for a half halt his response is to push his head up before bending and relaxing through the corner. He often has a similar response coming out of the corner before relaxing down the long side. He is otherwise decent at navigating pole work and exercises such as spiraling in/out.

We spent so much time working on walk/trot that we are relatively new to canter work (I would say only within the last six weeks have I started cantering him twice a week). Circles and transitions have been quite a bit harder for this gait as he still seems to be learning his balance. He definitely has a penchant for wanting to take off into the canter, as opposed to lifting up into it.

It has been a while since I used side reins, so it may be time to unpack those again.

Thank you for answering me.

《《《He connects on the front but disengages the back, which is our big problem.《《《

There you go. Your whole problem. You are riding front to back instead of back to front. This is where a great instructor comes in. Nothing will change until this changes.

The reason he is speeding up is because it takes strength to go slow. He will get better as he gets stronger and is ridden back to front. As someone above said - trot is the training pace - it will make the canter stronger even if you don’t canter.

Now that you are cantering, keep it up. One day in the future his canter will change. I will see your smile from here and you will go on from there. I expect to see that update.

If you know how to correctly use side reins, you can push him into the, not pulled in contact, and start him working from back to front. You can work him at a level higher than you can ride. The essential point here is knowing how to correctly use side reins. You should see him in the outside rein and the inside rein giving. You should see his muscle start to change.

Remember that 10 minutes of lunging like this is equal to an hour of riding. You want quality not quantity. Always start without side reins. Start with walk circles each way. Make sure he is going forward in trot at least before attaching too loose side reins, to make sure he has not got a grass spur in his gum or something causing pain. Never walk in side reins as it can cause a lateral walk. Always detach the side reins and walk afterwards so as this keeps a calm horse. Going halt trot all the time and don’t do the walk afterwards and you will find you lose the walk.

Ingrid Klimke who is a much better rider than any of us, says she lunges her young horses daily. Every second day she lunges only. This teaches the horse their own rhythm and tempo. I was surprised by this as I would have thought that her calibre of riding would be able to do that but I trust what she says. Her young horses are probably miles above our green horses.

Now I will give you advice that I think is essential for you AND it is only my opininon AND it is completely controversial so it is up to you which way you go from here, as you do not know me from a bar of soap and I am probably on the other side of the world.

Horses learn from a release of pressure. Use elasticated side reins or ones with a rubber ring, the horse gives a pull, the elastic/rubber ring gives, they feel a release of pressure and voila you have taught your horse to pull … and lean.

Cut the rubber ring and usually the design will mean that you have solid sidereins. This is not so easy with all elasticated side reins as some, if you cut the elastic, well that was all that was holding it together.

Now with solid sidereins, the horse pulls, the side rein holds, the horse submits, they feel a release of pressure and they have been taught to submit, they learn that the bit does not hurt and can be trusted.

Which is what you want to do when you are riding. You want to hold and give the inside rein but you never pull back in dressage, only if you need to, so you don’t break the first rule, which is don’t fall off!

You want him to trust the bit. You want him to submit when you ask. This will start you riding back to front.

Congratulations if you have gotten this far you have learnt something. Learning is exciting and you will learn every day now and find dressage exciting.

Good luck on your journey.

[Lucassb]

@BabyBays

Long post alert.

To give some background, I purchased a horse early last year with the support and encouragement of my trainer. This is a “green horse, green rider” situation (it’s okay if you want to roll your eyes here). With that said, my gelding is not a young horse and has a great temperament and brain. I’m a fairly competent rider, but I’m not as strong as I’d like to be.

I’ve put a lot of time into my guy. I ride or do groundwork five times a week, one ride of which is a lesson. I get training rides when I can, but the money is just not there right now to make it a regular thing.

However, I was shocked to get chewed out by my trainer after one of these training rides. Because I was not “engaging” my horse in the right way he, according to my trainer, is just about falling apart. My trainer then went on to say how weak my horse is and how terrible he looks (“terrible” was an actual word used in this conversation).

I asked for feedback on how to improve my riding to help engage the hind end better, but was not given much for tangible feedback. Mind you, I’m already taking weekly lessons with this trainer. I would love to take more, but again, I can’t afford it right now.

I’m still feeling incredibly discouraged as I was under the impression I’ve made good progress with my horse. I don’t know if there are any answers beyond “learn to ride better,” but any thoughts on where to go from here?

Do I lower the amount of times I ride for now so I’m not ingraining bad behavior? Do I focus mostly on lounging and groundwork to build hind end strength? Do I try to look for a more experienced shareboarder? All of the above?

I suppose it is possible that the trainer was just having a bad day, was frustrated, and made a poor decision about how to communicate with you.

It is also possible that this trainer is trying to compel you into purchasing more training/training rides than your budget is currently supporting.

Look, you are in regular lessons. Your trainer KNOWS how you ride, what your strengths and weaknesses are, and knows your horse as well. So “chewing you out” was uncalled for. The one caveat here is that if you bought this green horse and had agreed with the trainer that you would keep it in more of a program (more pro rides, lessons etc) than you are currently doing, I guess I might be a bit more understanding of the trainer’s POV (but not their approach to you as a customer.)

What bothers me most is the refusal to give you any practical advice about what to do differently in order to improve the situation. You were right to ask, and it was wrong for the trainer not to offer that feedback after such an outburst.

It’s easy for anonymous people on the internet to just say, “get a new trainer.” While that may well be the right answer here, none of us know what the options are in your area, and there are many factors that go into such a decision - including budget, time, distance from work/home, etc.

I personally would not ride with someone who acted like this, unless it was an extremely isolated incident on a particularly bad day, and they later apologized and offered a plan to address the situation that i found acceptable.

However, I recognize that boarding always involves some compromise, and sometimes the reality is that a less than ideal situation might still be the best available option. If you do HAVE other options - I’d certainly be exploring them, discreetly. If you don’t, then I’d look to have a sit-down with the trainer, calmly address the situation, and see if you can come up with an approach that works better than what you have going on right now. (And that may be that you agree that you are having fun and enjoying the horse even if he is not making the kind of progress the trainer would like to see.)

I would be very clear that I was not going to accept being treated like some errant employee, being barked at for not achieving a certain level of performance. I would expect the trainer to voice any concerns in a productive and professional manner, appropriate for a valued customer. Respect is appropriate regardless of that customer’s riding ability.

[emipou]

Why can’t trainer hop on during lesson as PART of lesson? A 5-10 minute tune-up each lesson would go a long way.

Agree with new train - if the trainer can’t give you advice on how to fix, and won’t hop on to help get more correct engagement, and is going to be negative about it, time for a new trainer. It might be hard, but you will be so thankful later for the change.

[Risuena]

I want to add one thing: what you’re trainer is expecting of you is HARD!

You mentioned that your horse is green, but is not young. That means he’s had X years of going around on his forehand, and you are a relatively green rider working to get him to use his hind end properly.

What percentage of people who have been riding for a couple decades even can effectively and correctly work with a green horse to teach them to use themselves better? I would venture it’s a relatively low percentage. Maybe I’m just particularly un-talented, but getting an uneducated horse to engage his hind end - and changing his whole topline - is challenging for the average AA! Is it reasonable to expect a green horse + green rider = engaged hind end and better topline in one year? I say this not to discourage you, OP, but just the opposite. It’s a rewarding process, and you’ll learn things that will stay with you and improve how you ride this horse and others in the future. I suspect you HAVE made progress with your horse, and a year really isn’t that long. FWIW, I had a loooong plateau with my horse and then suddenly we improved in leaps and bounds. Looking back, I suspect he wasn’t strong enough to do what I was asking - you need to build that base of fitness and strength first. I also had to learn some things and un-learn others. Progress was invisible, but we were slowly putting the pieces of the foundation together.

I agree that longing might be helpful. Hill work, long walks on the trail, poles and cavaletti could all help. It sounds like you’re very focused on improving him and yourself, which is fantastic, but most importantly, enjoy your horse!!

[JustTheTicket]

Dick move by your trainer. I’m guessing she was trying to shame you into paying for more training rides, but yikes. Its her job to give you tools in your lessons, and it sounds like youre doing your homework, so if the horse looks “terrible” that’s a reflection on her ability to teach you. I’d get a new trainer if I were you.

[BabyBays]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply! I genuinely appreciate the feedback and pointers. I hope this was a “bad day” moment given my previously enjoyable relationship with my trainer, but I agree that if it can’t be fixed with a suitable plan of action to help me improve, I may need to explore other options for training.

I have a feeling there will be an uncomfortable conversation ahead. In the meantime, I have some helpful pointers to try and work on.

[Edre]

OP,

I was actually in a horse/rider situation similar to yours once. My first horse (as a green amateur) was a coming 7yo with a little less than 60 days under saddle so I have been down this road before and know that it can be rewarding, but challenging! There are some things that stand out to me in your post, and I’ll do my best to comment on them as I think it might be productive for you, but I’m going to preemptively apologize for the wall of text.

First thing’s first: I know you’ve had this horse for about a year so some of this may not be entirely relevant, but it is worth keeping in mind. We, as people, do not go from “sitting on a couch” to “running a marathon” in one day. We do not have the muscle or fitness for it. Running is hard. Many of us need to be taught proper running form (and even “fit runners”, when challenged to “run in proper form”, may find themselves fatigued more quickly than normal). This is to say, when we try to get horses to “go correctly” often we lose sight of the fact that doing so is exhausting and no horse is going to be able to go from “not doing it” to “being correct” a majority of the time. Progress will be tiny, tiny steps that are building blocks for the entire affair. You do not start day one on “he is using his hind end correctly”, either.

Which is to say that “using the hind end correctly” is a good step in the process of building muscle over the topline, but 1. it is not a starting point in and of itself and 2. it also will not be the only thing you have to address. Think of all of the moving parts that are involved in “hind end going correctly”. There is joint articulation, there is lift, there is reach, there is energy, there is rhythm, and there is relaxation. It’s absurd to expect anyone to just go “well now, I suppose it’s time to have a go at using the hind end correctly!” (Also, refer to paragraph above - it is hard for horses and it is natural of course, they would much rather not exert the energy or effort.)

This also brings to point that you can have as optimally working a hind end as can be found, but unless the horse is using themselves correctly, it will all be for peanuts because horses that generate activity and power from the hind end can still drop through the back, or evade with the shoulder or neck. Another post above mentioned it, but both of these (neck and back) are entirely suspect areas for stunting development because many riders have a tendency to want to ride from the front to the back (rather than back to front). Stifling a horse with our hands is an unfortunately natural reaction for a lot of riders.

There are a number of really nice exercises out there - some (transitions) will help sharpen up the hind end. Cavaletti (Ingrid Klimke has a great book on exercises, I love it to death) can help build power. However, unless your horse is working correctly from the get-go, these things at best are going to have minimal effect and at worse, just be a hard challenge for a horse that won’t get anything from it.

You don’t mention it in the post, but how is your horse’s ability to use his back/stretch into the contact? One of my favorite things to do to build muscle, honestly, is just walking. An active, swinging walk that stretches down and OUT into the bridle. Doing this out in a field or trails is a great, low-pressure way to help develop a horse. (Hills are fabulous, if you have them.) And then taking this idea into the arena, doing work in a “stretchy” frame - some people may argue that the task is to get the horse up off the forehand, but until they are relaxed, have good cadence, balance, and connection, you may not really be at a point to look at more advanced self carriage. (Keep in mind: stretching can also fall into the category of “This is HARD WORK,” you need to build up to your expectations. For a horse to have a really extreme stretch out and down - the OUT is key, mind you - they need to develop that muscle. And of course, a part of the stretch will involve the horse engaging the core and lifting the back, driving with the hind end.) Stretching is truly an underrated option for helping develop a horse…

How familiar are you with the dressage training pyramid? If it’s known to you, I would strongly encourage you to go back and review it - if it’s new, then take some time to do some in depth research. While it’s not necessarily a concrete “This before that”, I think it does a great job illustrating how the more challenging/advanced concepts build on each other. Especially with green horses, making sure the foundations are good before pushing for more (like self carriage, a more uphill way of going, etc), is key.

…And then of course I also echo everyone else. A “teacher” who criticises but then offers no specific area of challenge and fails to offer a route to improvement, is generously, a terrible teacher. More frankly, they shouldn’t be teaching. If it was a bad day, I would consider asking them to specify - what that they see is terrible? Ask for details to help you train your eye and develop your plans. And then ask them to help you work through how to bring the horse along to improve those areas of weakness. If they won’t engage in these conversations, it’s time to find a new professional to work with.

[Pennywell_Bay]

So- trainers are human. Though I am spoiled with my current trainer- who somehow manages to remain calm, level and helpful even during my worst moments of riding (as captured on video a few weeks ago sigh).

If otherwise, this has been an enjoyable, informative trainer/client relationship- I wouldn’t def say to leave- but I’d be on notice for continued behavior. It is too expensive a sport, too much involved and invested to ride with someone who does not respect you or treats you poorly.

2 years ago a left a trainer for a multitude of reasons. One being I was really put off by how he spoke to me during one of our conversations. (again- there were other issues but that was the tipping point). Fast forward- I’m still on good terms with this trainer. I wish I had a conversation with him about the situation. “Hey. I want to talk about when you said XYZ.”. Most likely I would have been looking for a new trainer anyway for the other reasons, but I do regret not having a candid convo and just letting it eat at me. I’m usually willing to engage in those tough conversations.