Another possibly dumb newby question (set of questions-long sorry)

[Lesson13]

OK I’m once more about to reveal my naivete about the horse world and I swear I’m not a troll (possibly and idiot but not a troll).

So I’ve been looking at websites ranging from warmbloods.com to horseclicks and lots of individual breeders and trainer’s sites to think about my long range horse wants/needs/budgeting/Justifying to the husband etc…(I have no horse and just started riding last summer). But I’ve been wondering about the whole horse finance thing.

I completely understand demand driving prices and the whole supply and demand relationship. I also see that people routinely pay 10, 20, 50 thousand plus (it appears 6 figures is the limit except for thoroughbreds) for show horses be they eventers, jumpers, etc and it relates to the horses past record, conformation, temperament, pedigree talent, suitability for klutzy riders etc…

So obviously demand has or at least was there or prices would not be what they are/have been lately.

And I went to Upperville this year and saw the prize money listed for the elite jumpers and saw that its really its not that much and there are only a small number 20 or so entrants at the top level.

So I’m thinking that the money in show horses must be in stud fees (like in thoroughbreds) and to an extent in selling prospects as broodmares and propsects. Probably the ones sponsoring jumpers are doing it to enhance the owner/breeder/trainer’s reputation and maybe the owner is promoting the sire of the horse to increase his stud fees. I get that part.

Also, I know thoroughbred breeders actually can deduct ( expense) depreciation of the value of a broodmare or a racehorse and equiptment.

Do show horse breeders also expense their stock? That would make breeding and showing much more profitable for breeders because the less you’re taxed the more you keep right? Are showing costs deductible as a business expense for these folks?

And I also know that financing and syndicates are routine for racehorse purchases and there are “sponsors” sponsoring riders-giving them high dollar horses to ride and paying their way so top level Pros don’t really have to save that much but an amateur rider who wants a grand prix dressage horse really does have to pay the price one way or the other to get the horse that has the goods and then get it trained. Its a huge amount of money (and yes I know maybe they would never be able to ride it like it needs to be ridden but if they could it would probably be an even more exclusive animal so it would cost them even more).

So what I’m really wondering is if anyone has a sense of whether most people are actually saving up or just already have thousands of dollars to buy these animals or if for the most part they are or have been financed.

I live in D.C.; I know there’s crazy gobs of money here and I looked up some of the top US dressage breeders and realize they had hyper-funds before they ever thought about dressage.

But I also know that most wealth is in people’s homes and homes aren’t worth what they used to be. Is it really the case that there’s just sooooo much money out there its ridiculous and that has permitted the horse prices to rise or is it the case that most people out there are in debt up to their eyeballs in order to finance getting the best ride they can and the prices have risen because credit has been easy to come by (although now maybe not so much).

Maybe this isn’t something people talk about but its something I’ve been wondering. I am way to old to think I could ever flip a horse like speculators flipped houses but I understand a small percentage of people retrain, show, add value and resell horses for a living. Also, I can see how in the children’s horse market the kids grow up, age out, the horse is older, wiser, more valuable and can be passed along to the next family but then eventually he gets too old and the value that was there is lost but maybe that’s ok because parents never expected to make money off their kid’s horse.

But I’m scratching my head because I also know a lot of people with professional jobs who do not believe in any debt other than mortgage and car payments and while they make a decent living there is no way they’d take out a HELOC so their kid could have a 10,000 horse let alone an olympic prospect and they simply can’t put together any more savings than what their 401K allows never mind extras for something like the upfront price of a horse. I don’t have kids, my only debt is my car but it still seems like a major project to save for 3-5 years in order to put together $20-40,000 for a horse to have fun competing on at “lower levels”. Sure people will say you don’t need that but someone new to the sport who wants to do well needs a safe, friendly, well trained healthy etc… that will drive prices up, up, up.

Or possibly is it the case that this is a situation where everyone is professional in one way or another and I’m stupid to think there’s really amateurs out there in these sports who make up the “bread and butter” of the sport.

OK I’m asking you hunting folk this question because you don’t seem to have anything to defend but you also seem knowledgeable about how all this works.

I hope I haven’t offended anyone or asked something taboo.

The more I read the more questions I have. :winkgrin:

[WilfredLeblanc]

Why not take your time and ride the widest variety of horses you can and try the widest variety of equestrian activities you can, before you seriously approach the question of what kind of horse to purchase?

[Hunter_s_Rest]

I’m not sure I understand what is your question? It relates to foxhunting how? (not picking, just trying to get what you want info on so this group can help you.)

[Ray]

if you really want this answered, post in hunter/jumper forum.

my impression from folks at WEF last year is that pro’s are doing fine with buying/selling upper level horses. there was a decline in ammie entries at WEF, though. I dont know about the market for selling horses right now, but I can tell you that there are lots and lots of folks that manage to pay 20-100k for good ammie horses. In this economy, I can tell you that I am extremely grateful to be a 2 horse family and still be able to show.

But if you dont have 20k to plunk down for a horse, there are still lots of options. I half-leased and leased for years before I owned a horse. Like you, I started riding as an adult. Leasing gave me the opportunity to ride some different horses and progress as a rider, and also to lease an older total saint of a “been there done that” horse that packed me around my first shows and hunts. If you like TBs and have a good trainer, you may have good luck with an OTTB, many of which are free right now and often dirt cheap. Now, OTTB are a TOTAL crap shoot, but if you want to show and hunt, nothing beats a good-minded TB. My leased horse was OTTB and evented to Intermediate and my spouse’s horse is one of the dream OTTB stories - picked up by an eventer, now on his second career in C/A jumpers (could have done level 5 in his prime), wins in Hunters and Eq and is a dream to hunt. We were also super lucky in buying a very young draft cross for not that much that was good enough for level 4 jumpers and is now my horse for Hunter/Eq and hunting.

part of the reason that “show horses” are expensive is that they have a track record, are well trained and are really likely to be suited to their job. Yes, its great to have a horse that is ready to waltz into the ring. But taking a bit of a gamble on a “prospect” and putting in the hard work of training can really pay off. You just want someone who really knows what they are doing to check confirmation, temperment and jumping ability. And be prepared to sell the horse when it does not work out.

[Beverley]

I scratch my head, too, over the pricing of horses, and the costs associated with training/boarding/ showing. In general, I think there’s still a perception out there that foxhunting is an ‘elite’ activity that is ‘way too expensive’ for them- but when I look at showing costs, lordy, I couldn’t afford that but I’m okay with hunting expenses- you can do a whole lot of hunting for what it costs to participate in one A show.

Admittedly, the most I’ve ever paid for a horse is $4k and most have been in the $200 to $750 range. I’m comfortable with taking a horse with issues and seeing what it can do and happily, it’s worked for me in all cases save one. But- if I’m advising a newcomer to horses and/or hunting, I’m always going to say, invest the money in the horseflesh, otherwise you will be investing it in your doctor and hospital. For a show horse, I’d be expecting to pay big bucks for show qualities- way of going, form over fences, etc, and pay more if it’s a fancy horse that a less talented rider can have success with. For foxhunting, I’d shell out the bucks for those qualities that contribute to my safety and enjoyment of the sport- you can’t have fun out there if you are worried that you’re about to die, and you can’t enjoy watching the hounds if you constantly have to ‘ride’ your horse to keep it out of trouble. A packer that goes on autopilot is one thing in the show ring, requires quite a bit more in brains and athleticism (but not looks) in the hunt field. But clearly, the higher end market is in the show ring- don’t know how folks can afford it, but apparently they can.

That said- price does not, sadly, automatically equate to the real value of the horse. Heck, even 20 years ago I saw field hunters for sale for 5 figures that were dead lame. 15 years ago, when a neighbor in Virginia was in the market for a new dressage horse, and looking in the 10k-15k range, I laughingly told him I’d sell him my one eyed tb for ‘half price’- 5k- on account of being short one eye. During that process he shared with me that he had figured out the difference between a $1500 horse and a $15,000 horse- principal difference being when the $15,000 horse tries to kill you, the sellers scream that it’s all YOUR fault!

My two cents, don’t know if it answers your question at all!

[see_u_at_x]

@Ray;4534807

if you really want this answered, post in hunter/jumper forum.

I get the impression that the reason she asked here is because people tend to get a little defensive and snarky when asked these sort of questions on the H/J and/or dressage forums. A lot of hunt people tend to be very knowledgable about various disciplines, yet because they may not be overly involved in those other disciplines, are usually a little more objective and willing to help a newbie. Maybe I’m wrong in my interpretation, and if so, I apolgize. But if I’m correct, I don’t blame her for asking on a forum where she’s hopefully not going to get her head bitten off or treated like an idiot for not knowing the answer to her own question.

Lesson13, I don’t have the answer to your question, but I’m curious about what kind of responses you get. Oh, and I’ll see you out hunting on Sunday - I look forward to meeting you!

[SLW]

I must be related to Beverly in some way. The most I’ve paid for a horse was $4000- AQHA palomino mare- and I sold her 4 years later for $900. My current riding/hunting horses cost me $400 and $600- they are not big elegant equines, wouldn’t get a glance from a judge in a show pen but they lug me around our hunt country and members hunting green/new horses seek me out so they can ride beside a steady eddy. It works for me.

I have one neighbor who in the past has flipped/trained & sold horses with success. He purchased OTTB’s (only geldings) hunted them a season out here then shipped them to VA to be sold. The horses were correctly represented- junior, amatuer or staff hunt horse. He has a simple farm so expenses for 12 months or less were nil- the horses live outside on his ample pasture. If he paid $1000 a year later it sold for $10,000+ but it had been trained and had a solid base from an excellent amatuer horseman.

Personally, I would never take out a loan to purchase a horse. And as Beverly mentioned, fox hunting is the most inexpensive horse sport I’ve been involved in too. As a junior back in VA in the '70’s I showed local and D & C rated shows. I’ve done endurance, competitive trail (talk about something that could be addicting, try that sport!!) and hauled my daughters to local circuit western shows, rodeos and rodeo queen competitions.

I don’t begrudge someone who takes out loans or has the big cash on hand to purchase that high 5 diget horse. Cool for them. Extra cool if they can braid, muck stalls, know when their horses is sick and know when their horse needs a break. I am drawn to excellent horsemen/horsewoman. If they have to die for horseflesh in their barn, that is icing on the cake.

[asb_own_me]

How do you make a small fortune in the horse business?

Start with a large one.

Ha ha ha

Add me to the people who aren’t quite understanding the OP’s question as it relates to this forum, but the idea that many foxhunting folks know a bit about other disciplines makes sense. Since I’m not quite sure what the actual question was, either, I won’t take a stab at answering

I will say I noticed mention of writing off expenses, purchases, etc. Be careful.

[Nlevie]

Let me just say that foxhunters (in general - there are exceptions to everything) tend to spend MUCH less on horses than show hunter or jumpers, so I’m not sure we can really address your question. Any time someone starts talking about spending over $10 or 20,00 on a horse i realize they live in a different world than I ! But the reason for that is a good foxhunter (horse) doesn’t have to be expensive or fancy or anything, just be good at foxhunting. That is very different than a show horse who must either look very fancy or be able to jump amazingly big stuff. . . A good foxhunter just needs to be safe and most of us like it to be pretty too, but that isn’t a requirement. I’d like to think that my horse could hav ebeen a show horse or eventer had a taken that route, but I am pretty sure he and most other foxhunters I know really love their lifestyle and wouln’t trade it for being a pampered show horse. They are stuck in stalls most of their lives and and go around in circles instead of getting to gallop in the grat outdoors with their buddlies !

[danceronice]

I just bought a field hunter prospect for $600. (Right now it’s costing an absurd amount to ship him, but that’s another long story.) Board where I am is cheap, and I’m experienced enough this time 'round (or just crazier) to do much of his basic retraining myself (flat work, jumping in the ring–I’M going to need foxhunting lessons, but still).

But no way do I have the money to go show him on the hunter circuit.

[Beverley]

@SLW;4535251

I must be related to Beverly in some way. The most I’ve paid for a horse was $4000- AQHA palomino mare- and I sold her 4 years later for $900.

My $4k Cadillac was also a quarter horse, I put him down a year ago just shy of age 28, due to infirmities of old age- but he hunted to age 22.

I turned down 3 times that for him, more than once. He was a horse that I could hunt, as a whipper-in or in the field (first flight, hilltoppers, whatever) AND my son (8 yo when I got the horse) could have a blast hunting him too. I also won gazillions of trophies and ribbons (and state or circuit championships) with him at shows after we moved to Utah (something to do in the absence of hunting in the immediate neighborhood!) under both English and western saddle, over fences and on the flat, and the one event I entered with him- we won- his first event ever as far as I know, and it had been a 20+ year gap since MY last event. Not to mention his qualities as a Pony Express horse, trail horse, parade horse, well, heck, anything you wanted to do. Honestly- a horse like that, to me, is worth more than the most talented six-figure show jumper out there.

[JSwan]

@Beverley;4535622

Honestly- a horse like that, to me, is worth more than the most talented six-figure show jumper out there.

Amen.

[JWB]

@Lesson13;4534595

Do show horse breeders also expense their stock? That would make breeding and showing much more profitable for breeders because the less you’re taxed the more you keep right? Are showing costs deductible as a business expense for these folks?

Stock, no. They may insure them as inventory but I don’t believe horses can be “expensed.” I know people who expense equipment and farm vehicles BUT they are meticulous to make sure they NEVER use the truck, saddle, tractor for their own personal use. It can get really sticky and isn’t worth the hassle in general unless horses are your ONLY business (not for the sideline people)

@Lesson13;4534595

So what I’m really wondering is if anyone has a sense of whether most people are actually saving up or just already have thousands of dollars to buy these animals or if for the most part they are or have been financed.

I know people who have financed horses before through the seller but typically it isn’t done. I think you’re looking at SEVERAL different groups of horse owners…
You’ve got the syndicates who buy show horses. People buy “shares” for various reasons… Wanting to be part of a really special competition horse (even though they’ll probably never get to ride or show it personally), potential stud fees, etc…
You’ve got the extremely wealthy show riders who can afford to drop that kind of money on a horse… $100,000 to me is a years salary and 1/3 the value of my home. To the Firestone’s, it’s a drop in the bucket and easily spent on a horse. To people in between (better off than me but not in the Firestone’s league) it’s something that they may save up for if they really want a good show horse… Last year I spent $12,000 on a young horse. She’s the most expensive horse I’ve ever bought. I paid cash and would not have purchased something as expensive as that if I had not had the cash available.

[QUOTE=Lesson13;4534595]But I also know that most wealth is in people’s homes and homes aren’t worth what they used to be. Is it really the case that there’s just sooooo much money out there its ridiculous and that has permitted the horse prices to rise or is it the case that most people out there are in debt up to their eyeballs in order to finance getting the best ride they can and the prices have risen because credit has been easy to come by (although now maybe not so much).
[/QUOTE]

It’s the exception rather than the norm. I know people who did this and they lost their expensive horses. Most sellers want cash. Horses are in general a hobby, not a business.
I also know lots of people who make the horse their priority. They live in very meager conditions (mobile homes, 15 year old trucks, eating PB&J) so their kids can have $35,000 show horses… It’s all about priorities.

[QUOTE=Lesson13;4534595]Maybe this isn’t something people talk about but its something I’ve been wondering. I am way to old to think I could ever flip a horse like speculators flipped houses but I understand a small percentage of people retrain, show, add value and resell horses for a living. Also, I can see how in the children’s horse market the kids grow up, age out, the horse is older, wiser, more valuable and can be passed along to the next family but then eventually he gets too old and the value that was there is lost but maybe that’s ok because parents never expected to make money off their kid’s horse.
[/QUOTE]

Depends on the level you want to do it at… When I was teaching, I generally told my new students that horses do not increase in value unless they are in professional training (or with a very strong amateur who can train) and showing… as in, they are not going to buy a “packer” for $5,000, hack around on it till they’re ready for something flashier, and sell it for $10,000 unless they are also paying a professional trainer to ride that horse and putting show miles on that horse, at which point, they’ve usually spent MORE on the training than they profited on the horse… If they’re lucky, they’ll break even.

My $12,000 filly I bought last year was appraised this year at $30,000 BUT I’ve had her with a professional trainer who rides her 5-6 times a week and shows her. It’s not uncommon for me to drop $2,000 in show expenses in a month so how much am I profiting? For me it’s about having a really well trained, nice horse to show as soon as I’m allowed to ride again (I’m 8 months pregnant)

I just picked up an OTTB from Suffolk Downs too… My friend and I are doing this as a joint venture. We actually got the horse free (He was for sale for $500 but the trainer needed him gone) He has been in the barn for a week and we’re out $1250 in boarding, feed and shipping expense. My friend (who is not pregnant) will be doing the riding so there is no trainer expense - she’s a very strong amateur who’s been showing and in lessons for years. Our goals are to restart this horse and hopefully sell him in 6 months time. We’ll probably sell him into a fox hunting or lower level eventing home for $4,000 to $6000. You do the math. We’re not going to make any money there. We’re going to break even if all goes well but we’re doing it because he was a nice horse that we wanted to rescue.

Some people can flip horses for profit but they have very low overhead (no board bills) and they have a very good ability to find the extremely undervalued horse that will be a quick sale. By the time you’ve put 6 months of work into a horse, the profit is gone.

@Lesson13;4534595

But I’m scratching my head because I also know a lot of people with professional jobs who do not believe in any debt other than mortgage and car payments and while they make a decent living there is no way they’d take out a HELOC so their kid could have a 10,000 horse let alone an olympic prospect and they simply can’t put together any more savings than what their 401K allows never mind extras for something like the upfront price of a horse. I don’t have kids, my only debt is my car but it still seems like a major project to save for 3-5 years in order to put together $20-40,000 for a horse to have fun competing on at “lower levels”. Sure people will say you don’t need that but someone new to the sport who wants to do well needs a safe, friendly, well trained healthy etc… that will drive prices up, up, up.

You’d be surprised what people will spend for their kids (see my above comment about mobile homes and 15-year old trucks) and it’s all about their priorities… But those people are not looking to compete at lower levels.

For unrecognized, local level type of things, most people will start off with a nice, safe, older packer. There are also FANTASTIC leases to be had - I was riding a prelim level eventer with 3rd lv. dressage training for the past two years. He was older and needed some routine maintainence but he was fancy enough to be competitive, safe enough to pack and the cost to me? I paid his board, shoes, and Adequan every month…

I also stashed away money for my next horse purchase and bought an unbroke 2-year old. Now I’ve paid a professional trainer to ride her for a year and her value has gone up considerably. My patience and paying money to a trainer is sort of like financing… But my goals are not lower level there.

If my goals WERE lower level, I would have spent MUCH less. I evented through training, fox hunted and showed dressage (to 2nd level) on a navicular appaloosa that I got for $900. I spent $2500 on my next horse, an OTTB and I showed her for years. She was VERY fancy but again, I had to do a LOT of retraining work. Now I’ve been riding for over 20 years and I just spent over 10k for the first time EVER on a horse - but I didn’t jump right in there. While I was competing at lower levels, I was happy to have the lower level horse.

My BACKGROUND is pony club and fox hunting. I can’t think of anyone in Pony Club who spent over 10k on a horse and I remember ONE person who spent $20K on a hunt horse but he was VERY wealthy and was the exception rather than the rule. Most people hunted on their back yard QHs, TBs, draft crosses, purchased for MUCH less than $10,000. Most of those same people also pulled those same back yard horses out for hunter paces, local hunter shows, and lower level events, and were fairly competitive. They weren’t trying to win on the A hunter circuit though… For that matter though, you’ll probably never see an A-circuit show hunter out in an actual hunt field.

[QUOTE=Lesson13;4534595]Or possibly is it the case that this is a situation where everyone is professional in one way or another and I’m stupid to think there’s really amateurs out there in these sports who make up the “bread and butter” of the sport.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a matter of deciding what YOUR goals are. Horses span a HUGE price range. Decide what really want to do and then you’ll be able to have a better idea of what you want to spend on a horse.
It would be ludicrous for most people to drop $20,000 on a field hunting/local show/hunter pace/trail riding packer. You could get a REALLY nice one for half that or a “typical” one for 1/4 that…
That said, if you want an FEI level dressage horse, you’re probably going to spend $15,000 to $20,000 on a foal - but if you’ve spent that much on a foal, I guarantee you that you won’t be fox hunting it (the insurance rates would be astronomical) and it would be wasted on local show…

Between those two, there are a LOT of middle ground options… Figure out where you want to show before you get the horse to take you there.

[TalkIsCheap]

you have a pm

[Gloria]

Really unless you are very very very good and can put training into the horses yourself, the chance is you won’t make money out of horses. And if you want to flip a horse, but have to pay someone else to put the required training into him, chances are you will lose money. So in general, horses aren’t for profit. They are for fun.

Most people start with lease/free horses, advance to a cheap horse, then if luck strucks, get a nice show horse if they want to show.

At least that was what I went through. I started to lease a horse, then bought a cheap horse for fun and learnt tons from him, and then one year, I had a chance to see this very very nice show horse… He was originally appraised at $30,000 but some legal complication forced the owner to sell (court ordere). And just luck had it, I just obtained a huge cash bonus (one time deal and probably never will have another one), so after some huge price slash and negotiation, he was mine.

Showing is very expensive. Clinics and lessons are not cheap. So how do we manage it? We set priority. We don’t eat out. We don’t go to movies. We car pool to work. We rarely buy anything unless it is horse related. Our bathroom is gross and dingy but we plucked up money for a new barn instead of remodeling the bathroom. Oh and we don’t have children. We sacrifice everything so we can afford our expensive hobby.

I know some people get a loan to buy expensive horses. In many cases, that is what they have to do. And they have to set their own priority.

[Pony_Soprano]

There are people that finance their horses.

I have had clients that have done everything from refinancing their homes, to pulling money from their retirement funds, and borrowing money from relatives.

Interestingly most of those were mostly low 5 figure horses that were starter horses. The clients that were buying horses that were closer to 6 figures did not need to finance. Usually payment plans only happen if you personally know the owner or if it is an in-barn sale.

[magic_mushroom]

Our hunt fees are $1,000 a year. we start hunting early October and end in Mid april. We hunt once each weekend and on Wednesdays. Unbelieveably that works out to about $17 per hunt !!! and you can ride whatever you want as long as it gets the job done ( ok, we don’t allow mules). compare that to horseshows! we do have a few fundraisers, puppy auction hunt ball, etc…but still ! …best bang for your buck, IMO

[Lesson13]

Thanks to all who responded!!!

I was asking here because I didn’t want to get some embarrassed defensive overreaction from people on the other boards in case they thought I was asking to pry into their finances or call them elitists. It seems this hunting forum crowd is sort of a been there done that now lets go have fun kind of group but there are very knowledgeable horse people who have been involved with the whole horse scene for their whole lives so they know how it is even if they aren’t so much into that right now.

My instructor is a dressage person but she’s also a former pony club instructor who has done everything horse-wise and from what I’ve seen and heard from other people I think she really knows what she’d doing. I also think she probably never would have agreed to instruct me if the economy wasn’t in such a shambles. I’m sure she wants me to lease her 20+ year old grand prix horse and once I’m a decent rider, she might acquiesce to help me get something swanky for her to train. That might be doable in terms of a green locally bred warmblood (I am stalking one that lives up the street) I’m not going to Germany to buy the latest greatest thing. Even if I had unlimited money anything could happen and I’d be back and square one needing to sell a broken horse which I don’t want any part of trying to do; My first show dog was wonderful and worth every penny until he went deaf at age 3 and that was that; he is still with me at age 13 but I’ve learned my lesson about how exorbitantly priced living things can have their commercial potential ravaged at any time by accident or freaky genes.

Also, people say that right now is a “buyer’s market” but it seems like if you bought an older horse now it might be really hard to find it a home in a few years and that might be important to a beginner/amateur wanting to move up to a higher level horse. I’m going to be a 1 horse gal since the husband does not want any horse responsibility whatsoever and NOVA is expensive for boarding.

Clearly for me a OTTB that is only newly OTT is a bad idea and most other cheap to free horses don’t have any training or have something dramatically wrong with them or are quarterhorse or drafts (more about that in a minute.)

It seems like w/ most ads for trained thoroughbreds or warmbloods there’s a glut of $10-20000 horses and there’s still a huge variation in maintenance needs, training, or just something weird wrong (Sample only slightly exaggerated: Biffy is a great horse, perfect for children provided they have quiet hands, an independent seat and never take him outdoors in deer infested areas, Hero has a lot of time left to enjoy the world and can offer a lot to a new rider; he is 22 years old and had colic last year and is blind in one eye but nothing bothers him) etc…The $20-$30,000 seem more trained, lower mileage but still with some mileage, more reliable. And that seems to be what horses that have hunted a few years are going for on the websites where they say they’ve hunted X years with such and such hunt. Though some of them have also been shown so maybe that’s why prices are higher?

And just to put a perspective on that price range 16500 was the IRS limit for $401K contributions this past year. Most people in the world don’t max out their contribution limits. If people are buying horses in this price range they are either not maxing it out (to me that is very similar to going into debt for a horse) or they finance them or they have a lot of discretionary income. And lets not forget that the purchase price is just the beginning especially if you board and need transportation for the horse.

I have been attending lots of different horse events to get an idea of what breeds/types of horses I like & what I can see myself doing riding-wise. Right now the goal is just to get competent and whatever horse I buy eventually I would like it to be comfortable and manageable for me (huge warmblood geldings I’ve been riding are willing and have solid training but make my hips scream & are definitely not my dreamhorses though I do feel if I can groom them I can groom anything and they don’t worry me in terms of being flighty or spooky).

Another issue is that I’ve also had conformation show champion dogs of many different breeds and performance dogs and I have a certain conformation redflags that I would just have a problem spending money on. Animals who’s fronts and rear angles don’t match, funky toplines, bigtime cowhocks, not enough critter behind the tail, upright shoulders, high rears, close movement long bodies etc…). Strangely I’m even a bit wigged out by proper tail carriage on Arabians even though I know its correct for the breed. A quarterhorse might work but most of the one’s I’m seeing don’t look as though they’d be enthused about tooling around the countryside for hours which is what I envisioned doing. They seem like short spurt to go get the cow kinds of horses and then amble on the trail the rest of the time.

So whatever I get unfortunately is going to need to have pretty good conformation in that it can carry itself and not fall really heavily on the forehand. Is that what they mean by fancy? I’m thinking fancy is markings and no blemishes and daisy cutter movement for a hunter or huge overreach for a warmblood? I know that someone in my position prioritizing aesthetics probably sounds ridiculous but at least in the long run decent conformation might perform better, stay sounder, and age more gracefully. But obviously conformation is costlier. I also would like an animal that is “biddable”, learns pretty quickly, and doesn’t make things a struggle and has confidence (yes so does everyone I know) . I am willing to ignore color & chrome and to buy a smaller horse which should cut down on the price some. But conformation and a good attitude and reliability seem to be essential as well as not that easy to find and hence more on the more expensive side of things.

So a lot of people have PMed or even answered on here that yes show people have been financing horses or the stuff to go with them (barns, fencing, trailers, trucks). That’s not something I’m willing to do. But getting a green horse and putting it with a trainer is similar except maybe more a pay as you go type of thing-no real interest paid at least; just the chance it doesn’t work out for whatever reason.

I can certainly keep riding my current mount and as long as he holds out keep my eyes peeled for a prospect. I would think prices would keep dropping for a while until joe average can easily borrow again (which means home prices rising enough for Home equity loans to come back and for that to happen job situations have to getting better. Or maybe if breeders just cut back so supply shrinks.

Anyway thanks for those of you who spoke up. This whole discussion has been very helpful.

Finally here’s alink for the info about deducting depreciation on breeding stock. This was included in some recovery act legislation. My understanding is that a broodmare can be expensed for X number of years and the recover y legislation allows buyers who bought this year to take a larger percentage of the deduction in the first year than normal. The have to use it in a business. Not sure why a warmblood breeder wouldn’t qualify. Its prorated so you couldn’t take the whole year’s depreciation percentage if you only owned a broodmare the last month of 2009. And only brand new broodmares count. But this could be a financial incentive for breeding if all horse breeds businesses are eligible.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/49360/stimulus-act-impacts-horse-industry

[SLW]

The best horse’s I have owned were never advertized on the open market, it was word of mouth- a “friend” or “a friend of a friend”. Having a good network in MANY horse circles just might yield results for you when you start horse searching.

For example, a 15 year old appy mare. Two strikes against the horse right from the get go- an Appy and a mare. A friend mentioned her friend was selling this trail riding/barrel racing mare and I was looking for a sane youth rodeo mount for my daughter. We took a look. The mare looked like a flea bitten gray (yeah!) and had no ‘bad mare’ attitude. She became a three event rodeo mare (barrels, poles & goat tying) and was a trail riding machine. We took her a show to try her out on barrels & poles. Some friends came up to me and said “if you don’t buy that mare would you please let us know who the seller is, we will buy her.” :eek:

We bought the mare and three years later when kiddo went off to college I called my friends and said “do you still want to buy our appy mare?” Three hours later they were at the house to pick her up. I sold her for the same price I paid for her.

The beauty of foxhunting is that the horse does not have to be pleasing to a judges eye, only the manners matter to the Master, Staff and Field. :winkgrin: (I personally do admire those beautiful, well suited TB’s in the hunt field.) I think too you have to know your hunt and it’s way of hunting. I have no illusion that either of my horses would be suitable for hunting in PA and parts of MD/VA but for the level and place at which I hunt now, they are just fine and I am grateful.

Good luck in your search.

[armandh]

my daughters first horse was less than 1K

she had years of fun

and I did not have to worry about knowing where she was,
were boys involved, or if amateur pharmacology was included.

some horses are like rare cars

I had, next door, a fellow who would first alert his insurance co then take his 68 red ferrari V12 out for a spin. truly nuts he once turned down a 7 figure offer.

I doubt the big buck horses are financed
they are sold on by those who have developed their value to
those who do not have the time or skill
also possibly
folk with more money than sense