Another rider death

[Denali6298]

While I’ll agree sueing everyone and their mother would have a lasting negative impact, it’s that or we self police. We call people out. Why didn’t she get a yellow card at Rebecca for riding in the canola? She should have. If something happened to the rider at that event after that infraction, yes the officials are liable for not stopping a rider who made a dumb decision. We need to stop making rules because someone died.

There was nothing about that ride at Rebecca that showed the rider and horse were ready for that level and quiet frankly if I saw my horse being ridden that way she would be yanked from the rider and program immediately. A bold horse on XC doesn’t mean you fight the horse the whole way. Hell look at her trainer’s videos and the horse who went to SJ with a teen!

All I know is if me and my horse were like that, and we are, we stay at our level. BN… Maybe.

[Puffergrrl]

@JER

This is an important topic.

Eventers are sometimes/often riders who are priced out of h/j and dressage.

If you can’t afford a well-bred WB, you can probably afford a 3YO or 4YO OTTB.

^^^^^^
This.
I’m interested that you brought this up and I’m kind of glad.
Not so that I can bash anyone, but because there have been more and more conversations about people getting priced out of horses altogether in the current climate. This is a very self-aware statement that I find unfortunate, but true, in my personal experience. It’s sad and frustrating that people aren’t able to ride like they used to, but terrifying to realize that desire to stay in the game on a budget could be trickling down to fatalities and injuries in the eventing world (or even just dumbing down eventing because people can’t be responsible and organizations/organizers can’t make it reasonably safe).

Oh…and for the handful of people that have mentioned minimum requirements for each level before moving on…that’s part of the German showjumping system (and a lot of other European systems). I’ve been an advocate for possibly bringing it into our H/J system as well.

The people in the show office actually pull up your record when entering you into the class(es) and will deny your entry if you haven’t met the minimum requirements. Usually the requirement is along the lines of X number of clear rounds at X letter level before you can move on to the next (if you choose). If they dispute it, they’ll talk to you. If they’re right and you don’t meet the minimum, you enter the proper level or don’t go.

[Denali6298]

@Puffergrrl

^^^^^^
This.
I’m interested that you brought this up and I’m kind of glad.
Not so that I can bash anyone, but because there have been more and more conversations about people getting priced out of horses altogether in the current climate. This is a very self-aware statement that I find unfortunate, but true, in my personal experience. It’s sad and frustrating that people aren’t able to ride like they used to, but terrifying to realize that desire to stay in the game on a budget could be trickling down to fatalities and injuries in the eventing world (or even just dumbing down eventing because people can’t be responsible and organizations/organizers can’t make it reasonably safe).

Oh…and for the handful of people that have mentioned minimum requirements for each level before moving on…that’s part of the German showjumping system (and a lot of other European systems). I’ve been an advocate for possibly bringing it into our H/J system as well.

The people in the show office actually pull up your record when entering you into the class(es) and will deny your entry if you haven’t met the minimum requirements. Usually the requirement is along the lines of X number of clear rounds at X letter level before you can move on to the next (if you choose). If they dispute it, they’ll talk to you. If they’re right and you don’t meet the minimum, you enter the proper level or don’t go.

These are two different issues. Advocating for standards for the H/J world is all well and good. Realizing that if you personally decided to switch to eventing, which happens, you don’t get to jump the same height as you did in the jumpers because that’s what makes you a statistic. I think that’s the part you’re missing.

You are absolutely correct in wanting level verification.

As far as more conversations about people being priced out. Girl do a search in the forums. It’s been a thing. Also everything we are talking about here is decades old. Do catch up.

[Jealoushe]

MIMS FB page posted this. What in the ?? For that water jump. That’s what happens when they know they have frangibles to use. Tell me I’m wrong that fence is not ridiculous.

https://www.facebook.com/35628174121…739308157/?d=n

Red Hills posted this photo of a table too, covered in decorations and Knick knacks, which we know increase the risk of fall. Tell me why we need a fishing net on a fence.

I get they have fun designing these jumps but this is getting ridiculous.

[wildlifer]

Let’s please not descend to “people who have less money are less safe or poorly educated.” That’s just insulting. These two things are unrelated - income level does not equate with the ability to make good decisions (in fact, there can often be a negative correlation, in my experience) - & I know this forum community is smarter than that. Thank you.

[Denali6298]

@Jealoushe

MIMS FB page posted this. What in the ?? For that water jump. That’s what happens when they know they have frangibles to use. Tell me I’m wrong that fence is not ridiculous.

https://www.facebook.com/35628174121…739308157/?d=n

You’re wrong only because I don’t what those angles are supposed to depict. I want to see the fence as if I’m walking it. Maybe I’m too ignorant at this point to see a problem at the angles shown but that’s my opinion.

[beowulf]

Thank you @wildlifer

It is plain insulting and in many places in the US, not true. It’s not all roses over in H/J either - COTH just posted an article about a dearth of up-and-coming professionals with horsemanship basics in H/J land… And those people have so much more disposable income and education at their disposal than most. Lower income doesn’t have anything to do with less safe and/or educated on XC – and people competing at Kat’s level are NOT poor. It is extremely expensive to campaign at that level, those people are not lacking in funding and/or coaching, either. It’s not a grass-roots/low income problem at all… but I do agree that it would be better if showing was more affordable for all… but then how would we pay all of our officials?

[Blugal]

@Jealoushe

MIMS FB page posted this. What in the ?? For that water jump. That’s what happens when they know they have frangibles to use. Tell me I’m wrong that fence is not ridiculous.

https://www.facebook.com/35628174121…739308157/?d=n

The angled hanging log into water is a problem fence. We spend years teaching the horse to gently drop down into water, but now we have put an angled hanging log which means you have to ask the horse to jump up and out over it. Which invites a much too big jump in, and then a fall on landing. Or, the horse may well see the water before it takes off, and decide to jump down and left off the bank and… well who knows. This jump is just like the Vicarage Vee and we’ve seen how many horses fall as they misjudged it?

Second, a lot of those other fences have narrower rails and are are colourfully painted… like show jumps. WTF?

[Denali6298]

I hope no one took my comments as lower income go to eventing. You can’t deny it is less expensive then the H/J scene. But then again I never equated money to talent. Clearly by the subject of this thread you can have all the money to winter in Florida from Canada. Or compete at Rebecca.

Eventing is the one sport where you can’t buy your way up. You actually have to ride. Or threads like this happen. Or the ML threads. You can’t bullshit your way through cross country. I mean you can but you and your horse will suffer.

[Puffergrrl]

@Denali6298

These are two different issues. Advocating for standards for the H/J world is all well and good. Realizing that if you personally decided to switch to eventing, which happens, you don’t get to jump the same height as you did in the jumpers because that’s what makes you a statistic. I think that’s the part you’re missing.

You are absolutely correct in wanting level verification.

As far as more conversations about people being priced out. Girl do a search in the forums. It’s been a thing. Also everything we are talking about here is decades old. Do catch up.

I was responding directly to the comment from another poster below. I apologize if my response was long, addressed two separate topics, and did not come across as clear and/or relevant to you.

People getting priced out of horses completely impacts all of us.

And until JER posted the comment, I thought it was only in my somewhat limited personal experience that people getting priced out of H/J & dressage trend towards eventing (especially if they did some H/J because they still love the rush of jumping).

I understand the differences between showjumping and eventing. I have friends that are eventers and I have ridden my horse around portions of a XC course used for showing in the area.

I mentioned the minimum requirements in European showjumping, not because I want anyone here to talk about H/J issues, I used it only as an example of where such a program exists and has been working for a long time, since several people on the thread proposed that as one of many possible options for making eventing safer.
I would by no means call myself an expert, but I’m playing nice in the sandbox and trying to be helpful, so why so testy?

“This is an important topic
Eventers are sometimes/often riders who are priced out of h/j and dressage.
If you can’t afford a well-bred WB, you can probably afford a 3YO or 4YO OTTB.”

[beowulf]

@Denali6298

You’re wrong only because I don’t what those angles are supposed to depict. I want to see the fence as if I’m walking it. Maybe I’m too ignorant at this point to see a problem at the angles shown but that’s my opinion.

The first photo/fence is the problem one; the rest seem alright, though not great. First photo shows an angled hanging log into water, that could be misread a thousand ways and almost no platform or ground for varied track… THAT is a bogey, problem fence because it’s easy for the horse to misread, it’s a “gappy” fence into water… Horse will either read it as a drop because of all of that open space from the drop down to the fence, or read it as a huge effort requiring a big jump. Airy fences can invite overjumping which can land to stumbling/falling into the water on landing. Not a well designed fence IMHO and I imagine it’ll be a rough ride. Anyone who has had a horse overjump into water or come in too fast, have probably taken a dunk or two in their time, water stops the momentum rather abruptly and it does shake loose even the best pairs on XC.

[Denali6298]

@Puffergrrl

I was responding directly to the comment from another poster below. I apologize if my response was long, addressed two separate topics, and did not come across as clear and/or relevant to you.

People getting priced out of horses completely impacts all of us.

And until JER posted the comment, I thought it was only in my somewhat limited personal experience that people getting priced out of H/J & dressage trend towards eventing (especially if they did some H/J because they still love the rush of jumping).

I understand the differences between showjumping and eventing. I have friends that are eventers and I have ridden my horse around portions of a XC course used for showing in the area.

I mentioned the minimum requirements in European showjumping, not because I want anyone here to talk about H/J issues, I used it only as an example of where such a program exists and has been working for a long time, since several people on the thread proposed that as one of many possible options for making eventing safer.
I would by no means call myself an expert, but I’m playing nice in the sandbox and trying to be helpful, so why so testy?

“This is an important topic
Eventers are sometimes/often riders who are priced out of h/j and dressage.
If you can’t afford a well-bred WB, you can probably afford a 3YO or 4YO OTTB.”

I agree and people here would listen to you more if you didn’t tear us a new one to start. I agree with your whole post, but yeah. You came on the threads to stir drama and who knows what. So whatever. This isn’t Diva child. So while I think today you made great observations, they are colored by yesterday’s shenanigans.

[kiwichick]

As has been posted there is some evidence that large flat tables are problematic visually for horses to judge the spread.
I wonder if the way that horse liked to hang, it didn’t get to the fence under powered (the way it was ridden, vying for control) and try chip in. The base is narrower with an overhanging lip, and it possibly came in under and couldn’t get the knees up.

Rotational falls have occurred at every type of fence available, and I quite like this type of fence xc as they jump well. this incident shows it was a number of factors combined that bought this horrible incident.

Often in the aftermath of accidents, we look back and clearly see all the red flags, however the situation is fraught with difficulty in identifying the outcome, because each flag alone is usually not enough to forsee the outcome until all the red flags add up.

I think the idea of calling out bad riding is great, however we all make mistakes, we all get lucky, we all have a bad ride. Do we really want someone who just watched me get away with a rider error tell me i have no business at that level? What can they really know about my whole story?

I dont know what the answer is, but this fall has made me question am I “Just getting away with it” or am I really safe at the level I think my horses can appropriately compete at.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@wildlifer

Let’s please not descend to “people who have less money are less safe or poorly educated.” That’s just insulting. These two things are unrelated - income level does not equate with the ability to make good decisions (in fact, there can often be a negative correlation, in my experience) - & I know this forum community is smarter than that. Thank you.

Thank you. My experience is it has nothing to do with income as well. And in fact some of the worst coaches prey on stupid rich…and they exist in all disciplines. FWIW…some of the scariest riding I have ever witnessed was in the Child/Adult jumpers. Talk about turn and burn with no set up for their poor horses. Bad judgement and bad riding isn’t unique to Eventing.

[Denali6298]

@beowulf

The first photo/fence is the problem one; the rest seem alright, though not great. First photo shows an angled hanging log into water, that could be misread a thousand ways and almost no platform or ground for varied track… THAT is a bogey, problem fence because it’s easy for the horse to misread, it’s a “gappy” fence into water… Horse will either read it as a drop because of all of that open space from the drop down to the fence, or read it as a huge effort requiring a big jump. Airy fences can invite overjumping which can land to stumbling/falling into the water on landing. Not a well designed fence IMHO and I imagine it’ll be a rough ride. Anyone who has had a horse overjump into water or come in too fast, have probably taken a dunk or two in their time, water stops the momentum rather abruptly and it does shake loose even the best pairs on XC.

And you outlined my ignorance beautifully. Thank you. I personally can’t assess fences from pictures like that.

[Marigold]

@Puffergrrl

Oh…and for the handful of people that have mentioned minimum requirements for each level before moving on…that’s part of the German showjumping system (and a lot of other European systems). I’ve been an advocate for possibly bringing it into our H/J system as well.

The people in the show office actually pull up your record when entering you into the class(es) and will deny your entry if you haven’t met the minimum requirements. Usually the requirement is along the lines of X number of clear rounds at X letter level before you can move on to the next (if you choose). If they dispute it, they’ll talk to you. If they’re right and you don’t meet the minimum, you enter the proper level or don’t go.

This is also done in eventing (at the mid-to-upper levels). There is a fair bit of debate on this forum as to whether or not the thresholds are set correctly, but we do have minimum requirements (we call them MERs - Minimum Eligibility Requirement) and they are actively enforced by officials.

There is also a system being trialed in several countries for eventing called ERQI (Equiratings Quality Index) which is a more complex formula that analyzes results and compares them against sport trend data to give safety indicators for various levels in a “stoplight system” (green: proceed as you are; yellow: consider your entry choices more carefully; red: you appear dangerous for the level). Most countries have this available to riders on an informational basis only - it does not actually restrict what riders can and cannot enter as long as they have completed their MERs, but they are advised to take its feedback under consideration. Ireland is one country I know of that actually uses it as a restriction on entries in national classes, and riders may not enter a level if their ERQI is red for that level. There are differing perspectives on the appropriateness of ERQI (for example, you could be “clean” but scary and it won’t see that; it can only tell you you have made good decisions so far - not that an upgrade will necessarily be successful, etc etc). But something you may wish to Google if you are curious about options for qualification standards in eventing.

[Denali6298]

@bornfreenowexpensive

Thank you. My experience is it has nothing to do with income as well. And in fact some of the worst coaches prey on stupid rich…and they exist in all disciplines. FWIW…some of the scariest riding I have ever witnessed was in the Child/Adult jumpers. Talk about turn and burn with no set up for their poor horses. Bad judgement and bad riding isn’t unique to Eventing.

My comments about eventing being cheaper have zero to do with income. It IS less expensive. Do the UL cost $$$$$$ like anything else? Of course. But for the 2’6” 3’3” rider, the horses and show fees are substantially less. That’s a reality not a snide remark. I say this coming from a family who could have funded a great Big Eq career for me. But they didn’t. What one is willing to spend on horses has zero to do with the bank account.

[Puffergrrl]

@beowulf

The first photo/fence is the problem one; the rest seem alright, though not great. First photo shows an angled hanging log into water, that could be misread a thousand ways and almost no platform or ground for varied track… THAT is a bogey, problem fence because it’s easy for the horse to misread, it’s a “gappy” fence into water… Horse will either read it as a drop because of all of that open space from the drop down to the fence, or read it as a huge effort requiring a big jump. Airy fences can invite overjumping which can land to stumbling/falling into the water on landing. Not a well designed fence IMHO and I imagine it’ll be a rough ride. Anyone who has had a horse overjump into water or come in too fast, have probably taken a dunk or two in their time, water stops the momentum rather abruptly and it does shake loose even the best pairs on XC.

Agree with your assessment. Also, not sure if it improves with a wider diameter, but a lot of horses don’t see the pin-striped or swirl-striped jumper poles well initially. One of the takes I heard on it was that they might look a little like they’re moving/vibrating. That narrow-striped swirl could be a look at if that’s a new pattern. And it’s made with a good amount of red and green, which horses just see as pukey.

[Puffergrrl]

@Marigold

This is also done in eventing (at the mid-to-upper levels). There is a fair bit of debate on this forum as to whether or not the thresholds are set correctly, but we do have minimum requirements (we call them MERs - Minimum Eligibility Requirement for FEI and ) and they are actively enforced by officials.

There is also a system being trialed in several countries for eventing called ERQI (Equiratings Quality Index) which is a more complex formula that analyzes results and compares them against sport trend data to give safety indicators for various levels in a “stoplight system” (green: proceed as you are; yellow: consider your entry choices more carefully; red: you appear dangerous for the level). Most countries have this available to riders on an informational basis only - it does not actually restrict what riders can and cannot enter as long as they have completed their MERs, but they are advised to take its feedback under consideration. Ireland is one country I know of that actually uses it as a restriction on entries in national classes, and riders may not enter a level if their ERQI is red for that level. There are differing perspectives on the appropriateness of ERQI (for example, you could be “clean” but scary and it won’t see that; it can only tell you you have made good decisions so far - not that an upgrade will necessarily be successful, etc etc). But something you may wish to Google if you are curious about options for qualification standards in eventing.

Thank you very much for this. It was immensely helpful. I appreciate you taking the time!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Denali6298

My comments about eventing being cheaper have zero to do with income. It IS less expensive. Do the UL cost $$$$$$ like anything else? Of course. But for the 2’6” 3’3” rider, the horses and show fees are substantially less. That’s a reality not a snide remark. I say this coming from a family who could have funded a great Big Eq career for me. But they didn’t. What one is willing to spend on horses has zero to do with the bank account.

Horses are not cheap period. MOST of us eventers came to Eventing not because of the cost to compete but because we like doing three phases on horses that we train and the challenge of being good in all three and yes, we love xc. And we like it being about partnership. Every area of this country is different as well. Some parts of this country…the fancy barns are the event barns as you typically have to own your own horses. There are not often “event” barns with lesson horses. This is off topic as far as I’m concerned as I don’t think it has anything to do with safety.

in all honesty…at the higher levels…it is NOT cheap. A rider competing at RH (not from that area) is spending a lot. Is it as expensive as the current costs of top Hunter or Jumpers?..no. But certainly comparable to your typical regional A show.