Another "what would you do" question

[demidq]

I will start with a disclaimer- I try only to make positive comments and never offer opinions or unsolicited advice at the barn. I am there to ride own mare and to enjoy a little distanced socialising. I board at a small private barn, no trainer. The owners are not terribly knowledgeable but are doing a good job.

Recently a new boarder has come and has set himself up as the resident expert, offering training and lessons, bringing horses in for starting. He is a nice guy, maybe late 20’s, but talks BIG and his knowledge base is not nearly what he claims. He tells everyone about all the big names he has trained with, from Olympic and Pan Am dressage riders to Grand Prix jumping people to Olympic endurance riders to saddle seat competitors to reiners. Apparently they all wanted him to stay with them because he was so talented and offered him free lessons on their horses but for various reasons he moved on. He also says he was a farrier for a big name dressage rider in the area, then I overheard him tell someone else that he had done an apprenticeship with a well known farrier in the area. (He trims his own horses, sort of. Let’s just say I would not let him near my horse with a hoof knife). I mentioned his name to a local coach I know as he said he had shown her horses. The eye roll was major- he had worked mucking stalls there for a few months and had ridden one of her horses once. If you mention a discipline or breed he is an expert. He works delivering feed for a local mill.
This would all be a bit of a giggle except he is now giving lessons to a young girl who is over horsed and to a rider with neurological limitations and not much insight.
He just helped a new boarder buy an 2.5 year old haflinger/ welsh cross and plans to start it for her over the winter. Pony is 13’1" and bum high, he weighs 250 lbs. He says they were told pony had a fractured splint bone but seems sound and as it was cheap he told buyer it wasn’t worth doing a vet check. He did not know that a fractured splint bone was not the same as a splint.

I am biting my tongue HARD but am really worried that someone will get hurt, and/or that he will ruin this pony. I would like to talk about my concerns with BO (who is also taking lessons from him) but do not want to be a busybody. I am pretty sure he doesn’t have any kind of coaches’ liability insurance either!
Suggestions for how to deal with this? Back off or have a quiet word with new owner (who I know from elsewhere)? Bring it on- I promise not to get hurt feelings or flounce off!

[GraceLikeRain]

@demidq

I am pretty sure he doesn’t have any kind of coaches’ liability insurance either!

The COTH auto response is MYOB but I don’t think it is black and white when there are genuine safety issues going on. If the owner isn’t super experienced the “trainers” blowing smoke tactics that have brought in clients will likely sound more convincing than a single concerned boarder.

A slightly sneaky around about way would be to reach out to BO and say “I’d love to bring in trainer X for some lessons. They of course have liability insurance. What is the best way to get you that documentation”. The BO may not know that a trainer should have insurance and assumes their policy covers training.

Outside of that, I would steer clear and try to be a friendly person to others at the barn. Bad mouthing gets you nowhere but people will figure him out in time. Seeming like a quietly knowledgable person sets you up to recommend safe trainers in the area if asked. Engaging now will get you labeled as a gossip but the truth will come out in time.

[OverandOnward]

Why are you biting your tongue hard? Who is that benefiting?

You don’t have to attack him. Go Machiavelli on him. Manipulate and maneuver.

Ask him questions if the others already know the correct answer, where they can hear his response. With a smile of course.

If he says "I rode with ___ ", say “Oh I know him/her! The next time I talk with him/her I’ll mention you, I’m sure they will enjoy reminiscing.” You get a pass to lie a little bit in a good cause.

If others in the barn will eventually figure out what a fraud he is, just help it happen a little faster. Hiding the truth about him from people who need to know is joining the wrong side. You owe your friends better. You owe the fraud nothing. Why are you siding with the fraud by keeping your friends in the dark?

You are saying that there are vulnerable people that he is misleading in a dangerous way. At the very least, have a private conversation with the barn owners about your concerns. Don’t ask them to do anything, just let them know your observations. Your concern that letting him lie and mislead, while using their barn as a source of people to lie to and mislead, is putting their customers and their barn’s reputation at some risk. (And mention the insurance thing that he should give them.)

If he is putting other people (and horses) at risk, doing nothing is the same as watching an accident that you could have prevented. People do this all the time, I know, and I can’t understand how they live with it.

Glad you posted here. Hopefully you will get some good suggestions and advice on how to help this person move on elsewhere, as this situation is clearly troubling you, and rightly so.

[OverandOnward]

@demidq

He just helped a new boarder buy an 2.5 year old haflinger/ welsh cross and plans to start it for her over the winter. Pony is 13’1" and bum high, he weighs 250 lbs.

Find a way to cheerfully ask “the expert” about the weight ratio for horses & riders, referencing the experts who endorse and explain it. Bring a weight tape and wave it around, showing the pony’s owner and anyone else how to use it and letting them give it a try on the pony and other horses as well. Even if he poo-poo’s the concept, just revealing that experts endorse it, and that it even exists, may be enough to get the pony’s owner and others to think more critically about what he says.

It is amazing that someone who is loud and forward can convince many people of anything. Anything. With absolutely no basis behind what they say. People have to be prodded to think more about what they are hearing from such loud and forward persons. And they have to see that other people they respect are thinking critically, too, and not just accepting everything that is said in a loud and forward way. I don’t know why this is, but humans tend to be this way.

[Equkelly]

While I am usually in the MYOB camp, I was young and I was misled by a “trainer” that had no business training horses or people.

I agree with the other posters. You can’t flat out go to the barn owner and say “x” has no idea what they’re talking about and doesn’t have insurance. You plant seeds. @GraceLikeRain has the right idea where you causally ask about insurance. Get the wheels spinning that trainers are supposed to have insurance. Mention horror stories in passing. Say things like “it’s always the “trainers who act like they know everything that end up being the biggest phonies.” Nothing about this guy specifically though.

With the other boarder with the baby, you can’t just say “x doesn’t know what they’re doing and shouldn’t start babies.” You just casually bring up how important it is to start young horses correctly. Maybe you make up a story about a friend’s horse that’s growth was stunted because somebody too big got on it. Maybe you mention “gosh it must be so hard to find someone small enough to start him”. Play ignorant. Act like you’re not even thinking that you know damn well this guy is starting the horse and you also know damn well he is too big. Work it into the convo some how. If someone mentions reining, you bring up how messed up it is that all those giant guys are riding 14.1 quarter horses. Then let her wheels spin.

For the young kid who’s over-horsed go to the parents and make comments about how “you’re so brave letting your kid ride that horse! My parents never would’ve let me do that at that age!” Or “glad so and so’s enjoying lessons! It’s such a shame you guys are like his only client. I guess he’s just new at this… surely he’ll get more!”

Plant these little seeds and let them take root and blossom. Play ignorant. There are ways to tell someone something without telling them. When I want someone to have information without having to actually lecture someone I just casually mention it and act like I think they already know it.

I do this all the time at the barn. I had a friend who didn’t realize their senior horse couldn’t eat alfalfa stems and was losing weight because they weren’t getting enough forage. They thought the horse was being picky and didn’t put it together that a 35 year old horse just has crap teeth and can’t chew those stems. I just casually mentioned how expensive it must be wasting so much hay because poor dobbins teeth can’t eat alfalfa. The next week they get new hay. I had another friend who was over blanketing her horse and she mentioned how she left her blanket on all day when I knew it was way too warm for an unclipped horse to be blanketed. Instead of saying “hey that’s not healthy or safe!” I just went “oh gosh! That’s so scary my biggest fear is that I’m going to forget to pull a blanket and cause so and so to colic!” I knew she didn’t forget to unblanket. Then I go “as long as shes not sweating or anything shes probably fine! (knowing damn well that horse was DEFINITELY sweating). Friend then calls me freaking out worried about colic, her horse was totally fine but she has not over blanketed since I pulled that stunt.

Plant seeds of doubt. People won’t listen to you and your concerns but you can make them believe that they came up with these concerns themselves!

[NancyM]

Unfortunately people like this seem to be plentiful in the equine industry. The gift of the gab and a whole lot of bluff. And they prey on those who are susceptible and green. It’s sad and worrying to watch it happen. And both the horses and the people pay the price in the long run. Unfortunately it’s bad for the equine industry as well, people and horses get hurt and are unsuccessful, and leave the industry rather than excel as the humans become horsemen, and the horses get ruined, often permanently. It’s hard when you watch it happening, and it’s hard to intervene. I know of several “coaches” who would be similar to what you are seeing at your barn, and have a loyal following of disciples.

I think the best plan is to advance the insurance question. However, insurance can be purchased by this fellow, it will only cost him money. Those who are completely unskilled and unsuccessful can and do still purchase insurance- it costs a bit more without certification, but still available. And certification itself is also questionable in terms of guaranteeing actual skill and knowledge, but perhaps does weed out the very worst. Unfortunately we can’t all ride with the top coaches with proven history at the elite levels, and we don’t need that sort of coach when riders are green or young or not riding at that level of competition.

I think that in your position, other than trying advancing the insurance question to the barn owners, I would simply look around for clinics being offered in your area by travelling coaches that you KNOW are good (or at least adequate), and encourage your barn mates to “give THIS clinic a try”, either as a rider or auditing, as it is always so helpful to get more opinions on riding and training. And allow your barn mates experience the difference for themselves and make their own decisions. That, and set an example yourself in your own riding and training.

[eightpondfarm]

i’m too blunt i suppose. I would just say outright: “He’s gonna cause serious damage to that pony if he puts his huge weight aboard him/her” I worry MUCH more about animals than i do people. People, dumb or not, get to make decisions for themselves…horses however are innocent and have no say. That said, i’d have zero qualms about saying outloud and to anyone who would listen: “That guy’s a fake.”

[Where_sMyWhite]

@demidq

This would all be a bit of a giggle except he is now giving lessons to a young girl who is over horsed and to a rider with neurological limitations and not much insight.

Frankly, the ‘rider with neurological limitations’ worried me far more than the pony. Yes, the pony is a risk for permanent damage as well as possibly injuring riders.

The person with neurological limitations (don’t know what they are nor do I really want to) but if there are limitations that will impact their ability to be safe on and round a horse, that would really raise the hair on the back of my neck and seems very risk to me.

Again, people will hear only what they want to and believe what they want to. Mostly butt out, try to ride when this person isn’t on the premises, asking ‘innocent’ questions to try to raise the level of awareness. What is the state of the BO’s liability insurance? I hope they have some.

[2DogsFarm]

@demidq

I would like to talk about my concerns with BO (who is also taking lessons from him)

There’s your answer.
If BO has drunk his Koolaid, your $.02 will not be welcome.
And if BO is not aware of liability insurance needed for “trainers” or for their own property, Shame on them.
If you otherwise like the barn & care of your horse, just MYOB.
Can someone get hurt? Yup.
But even people with good knowledge & experience manage to get injured around horses.
Says the woman who just bonked herself hard enough to leave a mark on a shelf she installed on a stall front to hold a brushbox… some 10yrs ago < the install, not the bonk.

[xeroxchick]

People who tell you what an expert they are raise all the red flags for me. I’ve met a few riders who were in the Olympics and they never bragged. I’d stay away from the whole situation. Sad.

[shiloh]

I’ve had a couple situations like that. The first one I said nothing and a good horse was permanently injured by some blow-hard know-it-all little girl. I vowed not to do that again. The next time, it was a woman who had hired some local BNT who taught High School Dressage. He was so violent and vicious to the horses - deliberately making them rear and then forcing them to go over backward, making them fall and then he would stand on them so they could not get up, running them into fences at speed, etc etc. It was awful. I told the BM and the horses’ owner and they both blew me off. Until the BM got a load of what he was doing. The owner left the barn because she felt she was being “harassed” (plenty of people besides myself telling her the trainer was abusing her horses). She admitted several months later that she did not believe us until she saw it with her own eyes (she appeared unannounced at one of his abuse uh I mean training sessions). Then we had the idiot trainerettes… that story is waaay too long. Suffice it to say, both times I told the concerned parties what was happening and I said why I was telling them and that I was only going to say it once and never again, they could do what they wanted. I feel I cannot stand by and let nonsense like that and what is happening at your barn go on. Something needs to be said. Not to approach it like you’re oh so superior but as this is a concern and why.

Good luck.

[Equkelly]

I’ll just add that my biggest worry is about the young kid who he’s apparently “teaching”. Everyone else sounds like an adult that should know better. Young kids especially with non-horsey parents however are just so vulnerable. If you were going to confront anyone and be direct I would confront that kid’s parents because they genuinely just might not know better. If you’re not in the horse world you won’t notice the warning signs.

[endlessclimb]

We have a similar situation at my barn now, and for now I’m just keeping my mouth shut.

I have caught our little trainer:
-adjusting a german martingale as a running martingale for someone (I said something, because the straps were dangerously long and were going to get the rider hurt - the rider is not very experienced)
-telling people a leg yield and a side pass are the same thing
-suggesting people use ace to make their horses more rideable
-telling others that I am pulling on my horse’s mouth because I ride with contact (mind you, I can ride the old broke one bridleless, but I digress)
-telling people OTTBs are not broke to ride (as in, not broke at all, not just the finesse part)
-telling me (with pure confidence) that my D-ring bit is on upside down
-letting his horse go around cross firing at the canter and had no idea
-can not trot or lope his horse consistently
-sent his own young horse to another guy to train, because he couldn’t do it - other guy used drugs in the training process
-telling people I must ride my horses too much because of how they’re generally quiet and obedient (LOL, I ride each 3 days a week max - for 30 mins total with a 10min warm up and 10min cool down)
-when I was trying to explain inside leg to outside rein to one of his “students” after she asked, he interjected that riding with contact was cruel

and on and on. I don’t know why he has his little group of followers - they’re all middle aged women who should know better than to fall for this crap. But alas, here we are. The best thing I can think of doing is to make sure my lessons are when those women are typically around, so they can see what a real instructor is. All of these ladies are on their first horse, and believe they know more than they do.

If it were me, I’d take the parents off to the side and say something to them. The adults you should MYOB with, other than making sure your example as a horseman is far and above what this fraud can produce.

[Ghazzu]

If I didn’t know better, I’d swear the guy’s initials must be NP…

[demidq]

Thank you all for your input.
I am leaving a couple of books for the woman with the young pony and suggest she check out Warwick Schiller’s videos. I plan to speak to her in person as soon as possible regarding the pseudo expert. It is her grand-daughter that the “expert” has been teaching.

I am also going to speak to the BO today using all the tact I can. I don’t want the reputation of being a horrible old gossip, but I can’t stand back and watch her being misled anymore either.

[candyappy]

I would MYOB except for the fact that the small , young horse is in danger as well as the young " over mounted" girl and disabled person under his teaching. I would talk to the BO about those 3 instances and let the others learn on their own.

The horse world is full of these types and sadly they never have a lack of followers.

[shiloh]

@endlessclimb

All of these ladies are on their first horse, and believe they know more than they do.

Until they don’t and fall off on their a**es or their heads and someone really gets hurt. I just don’t get the followings these what I call Idiot Trainerettes get. Mind-blowing, no?

[Equkelly]

@shiloh

I just don’t get the followings these what I call Idiot Trainerettes get

Narcissists are very attracting for people. Especially if you’re insecure in your abilities it’s nice to have someone come along with all the answers. They make you believe that training with them will give you some insider knowledge that nobody else has. THEIR training is unique and special and will put you above everyone else’s level.

[shiloh]

Well, that is certainly true. And a bit frightening. Their only concern is for themselves (me ME ME!!!) and no-one else. They don’t care who gets hurt or how because even if it is grossly their fault they will make sure everyone knows it was the poor client’s faults not them and their FABulous training methods. head desk head desk

[Gesaffelstein]

If I were you I would just mind my own business. Let the cards fall as they will, no need to say a thing.