A broker I’ve used posted a notice a vet clinic placed on facebook saying USEF intends to ban Depo altogether and regumate for geldings/stallions (mares can still be on it). Didn’t state when the rule would come into affect. Anyone know anything about this? A friend of mine said her vet told her the same thing. I don’t have a horse in this race, so to speak, as none of my barn is currently on depo or regumate (though I have had mares and a gelding in the past on depo), but I feel like that could be a real game changer in a bad way for a lot of horses. :mad:
I confirmed with my vet that yes, it’s a thing. I don’t think it’s been made official yet though. If/when it goes through, the withdrawal time will be about 6 months for it to go into effect, so you’re looking effectively at 1 year from now for this to be an official rule.
Personally, I have a gelding on Depo (medroxyprogesterone), and my friend’s mare is on Depo. I understand the nature of the rule, i.e. to ban anything that is not in the good competitive nature of the sport, but I think this may not be a forward-thinking rule.
On one hand, depo use is strictly off-label. There are rules against this for drugs in horses and in animals in general. That said, depo is not 100% predictable in how it will work, and there is no consensus in how it should be used.
The use I (and everyone I know) use it for is to reduce moodiness, not for quieting. My horse is DEAD LAZY as is, but I use depo on him to reduce his chances at lunging at the mares in the barn (yes he does this sometimes, with me on him when they get too close), to enhance his focus on me and not his buddies in the barn, and to generally allow him to be happier to do his job. It does not alter his performance in any other way. At shows, he’s the same as ever…but maybe he’ll be less likely to bite at another horse, or happier to walk away from his buddies into the ring. It won’t affect his gait, jump, or anything else. My friend uses it for her mare to do the same. I mean, if they allow athletes to compete while using birth control…
I DO know of people who have used it in other ways, though, and in some horses its effects are quiet profound. I don’t think it’s against the competitive nature of the sport, however, to use it, under certain guidelines. Enforcing those guidelines though…that’s another story.
I have many reservations about this. I know mares that are on Regumate who need depo from time to time when their follicle gets “stuck.” Ideally this should not happen, but it does. They should work with their vet to find a better plan, but depo isn’t an altogether bad plan in general.
I also am concerned about the housing situation at shows; stallions who were on Regumate or depo housed near mares can be a hazard, and at shows handling may then become an issue.
My 2 cents, as a vet and an ammy in the heart of WEF country year round.
I think FEI already frowns upon using these things on geldings given a recent action but they are still in a bit of a grey area.
IMO there are those who overuse so well see what happens here.
I started showing around 1970, breed and Open, and there were always stallions around. I showed one. No female hormones, no Ace. Some stabling and handling precautions. We survived without phamaceutical help.
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The use I (and everyone I know) use it for is to reduce moodiness, not for quieting. My horse is DEAD LAZY as is, but I use depo on him to reduce his chances at lunging at the mares in the barn (yes he does this sometimes, with me on him when they get too close), to enhance his focus on me and not his buddies in the barn, and to generally allow him to be happier to do his job. It does not alter his performance in any other way.
From the description, it does look to me like you are using it for performance enhancement. I have never used it, but from what I have heard, GABA does not improve a horse’s jump or gait. It does, however, improve its demeanor.
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Same rule applies at rated shows in Canada FYI. No Depo or Altrenogest (Regumate) permitted for the “boys”. They will be testing and have made that known.
[QUOTE=RockinHorse;9028171]
From the description, it does look to me like you are using it for performance enhancement. I have never used it, but from what I have heard, GABA does not improve a horse’s jump or gait. It does, however, improve its demeanor.[/QUOTE]
If we follow this line of thinking, gelding itself could be a performance enhancement.
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The most interesting part of this to me is that Depo is completely banned, even for mares.
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[QUOTE=RockinHorse;9028171]
From the description, it does look to me like you are using it for performance enhancement. I have never used it, but from what I have heard, GABA does not improve a horse’s jump or gait. It does, however, improve its demeanor.[/QUOTE]
GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Its effect is to reduce neuronal excitability throughout the central nervous system. It relaxes muscles, it relaxes nerves, and it calms/quiets a horse through that. I bet your horse would move better if it was more relaxed.
The hormonal (sex hormone) pathway is much less predictable individually, and it controls sexually-derived behaviors. It inhibits gonadotropin-releasing hormone, which reduces testosterone synthesis. It does NOT have any direct effect on muscles, nerves, or neurotransmitters.
So medically speaking and personally speaking, I think comparing Depo to GABA is like comparing apples to oranges… but in the spirit of competition, giving ANYTHING that would alter a horse’s mood is frowned up. I.E. this should also apply to Perfect Prep, and those “calming” agents.
If they could test for the agents in perfect prep, it would most likely be banned as well.
If we follow this line of thinking, gelding itself could be a performance enhancement.
Gelding is not a drug or a supplement.
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It’s about time!
[QUOTE=EdgeBrook;9027393]
A broker I’ve used posted a notice a vet clinic placed on facebook saying USEF intends to ban Depo altogether and regumate for geldings/stallions (mares can still be on it).[/QUOTE]
If the vet clinic was Atlantic Equine, that post has now been removed from their FB page. Google searches turn up nothing on this. So, it makes me wonder if this was just a rumor that got passed along as fact?
If that was the proposal, not sure I see a rationale for Regumate to be ok for mares, but not depo? Is there a difference that would justify that?? And for that matter, if hormones for mares are ok, is it really that different for geldings or stallions, when it does seem to help some of the studdish ones keep their hormonal behavior in check? Sure, there are obvious physical differences with mares, but it still seems like the lines would be drawn based on judgment calls in such a proposal.
Rocking horse- I wish I could like your post multiple times.
Depo affects hormones (in mares, stallions and regardless of if it is gelded) that are produced or regulated by the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is not only important to the endocrine system, it is involved in the ANS, one of the components being “fight or flight” (parasympathetic.) Though we aren’t really certain exactly how it affects mood- depression is an occurring symptom/adverse event when it is used on human males (and sometimes females).
In horses, it would probably fit into a vague “we may never know” because huge trials will not be done to ferret out the details but it certainly could be considered “performance enhancing” if the goal is to quiet the animal (medical type treatment aside).
Those giving it to their geldings for the purposed of quieting, there are studies (done in mice and rhesus monkeys) about the negative affects of on the cardiovascular system- again not for the purposes of exploring what equestrians are using the drug.
[QUOTE=EdgeBrook;9027393]
but I feel like that could be a real game changer in a bad way for a lot of horses. :mad:[/QUOTE]
Hmm. My first thought was the opposite.
[QUOTE=Single Oxer;9028215]
The most interesting part of this to me is that Depo is completely banned, even for mares.[/QUOTE]
I know people who choose Depo over Regu-Mate for their mares because they (or their barn owners) do not want Regu-Mate with all its attendant risks to women in the barn. Yes, the risks can be mitigated. But for some, even mitigated risks are too high.
Banning Depo entirely means they will have to choose between human health risks and their mares’ reproductive comfort.
Or to not show. I personally would not deal with the risks of Regu-Mate 365 days a year for 1 or 2 or 3 weeks of entertainment (shows).
People going to AAA shows every week or month or whatever might feel differently about the whole picture. I just don’t see banning Depo in mares as necessarily good for horse or human welfare, where it is being used legitimately.
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It’s no rumor, FEI acted against Florida based Irish rider Darragh Kenny for use of Altrenogist (sp?) in a gelding. He whined and blamed the groom for switching buckets (yawn).
There are no studies about the long term use of regularly administered female estrus suppressing substances in stallions or geldings. And they are becoming the go to in too many (in my opinion) barns in too great a quantity to appease rider/owner/trainer expectations.
I know owner/riders who won’t get on their gelding without them and a few tubes of PP. I mean, they go through a ton of the stuff…along with 10 sites or more joint injections every 90 days. But it’s “natural”. What ARE we doing?
My vet recently told us the same—that Depo and Regumate would be banned for geldings and stallions, with an 8-9 month grace period for withdrawals. She said the announcement from USEF would be forthcoming.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;9028475]
Rocking horse- I wish I could like your post multiple times.
Depo affects hormones (in mares, stallions and regardless of if it is gelded) that are produced or regulated by the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is not only important to the endocrine system, it is involved in the ANS, one of the components being “fight or flight” (parasympathetic.) Though we aren’t really certain exactly how it affects mood- depression is an occurring symptom/adverse event when it is used on human males (and sometimes females).
In horses, it would probably fit into a vague “we may never know” because huge trials will not be done to ferret out the details but it certainly could be considered “performance enhancing” if the goal is to quiet the animal (medical type treatment aside).
Those giving it to their geldings for the purposed of quieting, there are studies (done in mice and rhesus monkeys) about the negative affects of on the cardiovascular system- again not for the purposes of exploring what equestrians are using the drug.[/QUOTE]
The effects on the hypothalamus are primarily aimed at suppressing GnRH, so you don’t get LH and FSH release. I think we over-estimate the effect it has on any other part of the hypothalamus. If t has any effect on mood, it is very indirect (see below).
That said, I agree we don’t know what else it may do in horses. Like other steroids, there is some glucocorticoid activity, so if it does anything, it mimics the effects dexamethasone has on the body but to a much lesser degree. That actually may explain some of the effects observed.
As far as side effects, there is a laundry list…including pimples, weight gain, and feminizing of men. The side effects in men researched are on intact men, not “geldings” per say, so it would be hard to make a comparison when again the goal is to suppress androgenic hormones. The hormone pathways are complex and very individualized in their phenotype.
Of all the listed side effects, the one of greatest concern to me is loss of bone density. In women like myself who are on it, this is a serious long-term concern.
I still think the issue is that there is no regulation or consensus as to how this drug is used, in horses of any gender. If there was, it might provide better guidelines for safe use. I can certainly understand why the USEF would want to prohibit use of a medication like this, until which time (if ever) the FDA removes that ambiguity.
Personally I’m still disappointed. I’d be interested to see the discussion for and against this. But I honestly can’t tell if it makes an impact in my gelding or not sometimes, so I will of course comply with the rules. I feel I am a very “hands off” kind of owner, being a vet, doing minimal to my horse to allow him to be happy and do his job. But this one thing I felt comfortable with giving.
[QUOTE=mvp;9028480]
Hmm. My first thought was the opposite.[/QUOTE]
I’m just thinking of a particular pony mare I had that was MISERABLE without depo.
I really don’t mind the idea of it being banned in geldings, although I can certainly see the challenges it plays for those showing stallions. I just don’t understand why they’d ban depo for mares. I have fertility issues anyway, no way in hell I’d handle regumate and gamble with that…
I wonder if this will up the injury rate of riders who trainers manage their horses. As from the mouth of GM himself “you people fall off too easy.”
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