Anyone hear anything about USEF ban on Depo-Provara & Regumate?

[Libby416]

I am hoping that this is just a rumor. My mare is on it because it was one of the only things that has helped with her cold backed tendencies. Why? Couldn’t really tell you definitively. The vet that originally prescribed it to us believed it was due to less uterine contractions related to her time of estrus.

I can tell you it has no effect on her attitude, her way of going under tack, or her performance. She still has her bad days, as do I. But its been one of the only things that has made her comfortable and less panicky when it comes to the girth, and in turn, happier about her job.

After trying Regumate, which had no effect on her, depo was our saving grace. Many mares cycle even while on Regumate.

This is going to be a headache and heartache for a lot of mare owners who use it to help their mares be more comfortable.

[Libby416]

I am hoping that this is just a rumor. My mare is on it because it was one of the only things that has helped with her cold backed tendencies. Why? Couldn’t really tell you definitively. The vet that originally prescribed it to us believed it was due to less uterine contractions related to her time of estrus.

I can tell you it has no effect on her attitude, her way of going under tack, or her performance. She still has her bad days, as do I. But its been one of the only things that has made her comfortable and less panicky when it comes to the girth, and in turn, happier about her job.

After trying Regumate, which had no effect on her, depo was our saving grace. Many mares cycle even while on Regumate.

This is going to be a headache and heartache for a lot of mare owners who use it to help their mares be more comfortable.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;9027428]
The use I (and everyone I know) use it for is to reduce moodiness, not for quieting. My horse is DEAD LAZY as is, but I use depo on him to reduce his chances at lunging at the mares in the barn (yes he does this sometimes, with me on him when they get too close), to enhance his focus on me and not his buddies in the barn, and to generally allow him to be happier to do his job. It does not alter his performance in any other way.[/QUOTE]

LOL “Other than completely turning my horse around from a cranky mess into a horse who is pleasant to be around and able to focus on what I need him to focus on to get him around looking the part for his job, this stuff does nothing for him”.

@Pancakes;9028789

But I honestly can’t tell if it makes an impact in my gelding or not sometimes, so I will of course comply with the rules. I feel I am a very “hands off” kind of owner, being a vet, doing minimal to my horse to allow him to be happy and do his job. But this one thing I felt comfortable with giving.

“Now that I’ve had about a day to think about it, I’m really not sure that this stuff is helpful in any way, so I’m going to stop using it. I’m sad that I can’t give it to my horse anymore, but since I’m not sure that it makes any difference at all, I’m going to go ahead and stop giving it to him since I’m no longer allowed to anyway. But it’s a huge bummer that I can’t give it to him anymore”.

LOLOL sorry Pancake but you’re really not making much sense here.

[sassy]

My gelding used to be on it because of his ADHD (lol!) it made him less spooky but also dull. So I took him off of it. He can be a little effer and stare at random things outside the ring every now and then but most of the time he’s just sharper and jumps better

[Soaponarope]

Oooooooooooohhhh lordy be. LMAO. There will be some weight loss in the hunters for sure. I wonder what kind of potions the circuit will come up with to replace it? Whatever it is, I hope it doesn’t hurt horses more than Regumate.

[Sunflower]

Nature made horses to live in groups and walk alot and forage several (most) hours of the day. Anything that we humans do to interfere with that behavior is going to have some effect on the horse. Many things dictate horse keeping-- money, availablity, preference. Some places have limited turn out, no grass, some horses worth so much money the decision is made not to put them out with another horse ( being in sight and sound of other horses is not the same as group turnout-- because there is no group dynamic).

A lot of horse behavior “problems” are due to the restrictions humans put on natural horse behavior. Many “problems” improve, or even get solved with more horse companionship in a group and more turnout and more space to forage and roam. My horse had what people might call ADD, but when he got more time in group turn out, his attention improved beyond measure. He no longer felt like he had to be on constant sentry duty as a lone horse. The need to be on sentry duty carried over into his riding but when in a group he felt safer and could relax and so that carried over into his riding time as well.

I don’t know how many barns I have been to where walkers are considered be just as good as turnout. A walker might give much needed movement to a horse, but it does not have the psychological benefits of herd time and foraging.

People decide, within their available limits, how much turnout and horse companionship a horse gets. When restrictions impact a horse, often that is “solved” via chemical means so that the horse has whatever style, personality or lack thereof that is deemed desirable.

It is a sad statement on the industry that banning one chemical set just means people are racing to the next thing that is not banned.

[findeight]

For those worried about handling Regumate despite the pump applicator, there is an injectable version…or wear gloves as my barns do. That’s not the only supplement/med you probably don’t want on your skin then transferred to your eyes and mouth…there’s not usually hot water and soap right at the end of your feeding route.

Depo didn’t do much of anything for mine, probably didn’t time it right and two shots a month to be sure not to miss the cycle was a PITA. RM 6 months a year was more idiot proof and if younger female staff ran the feed cart around they wore gloves and other staffers, for various reasons, were not going to be affected.

[StormyDay]

There’s a fine line between banning substances for the good of the horse, or just going too far. I think banning depo for mares is crossing that line. Both depo and regumate are progestin variations. Both are birth control… they give depo to people. its not ace, not pp, not gaba. It has a medical purpose, and that medical purpose isn’t to suppress pain or make a horse calmer. If people use it on geldings in a manner it’s not designed for, well then ban it from geldings. Not mares though.

I dont think it’s a stretch to venture out and say that every lady on this forum has experienced moodiness, pain, etc from a period. mares have the same problems and I don’t think it’s fair to the horse to take away what it needs to stay comfortable through a totally natural process. There is literally no other way to deal with cycling in mares but with depo and regumate. Some people have success with various supplements but that is a rare margin… and by this way of thinking those supplements will be banned soon too. You can’t train it out of them, it’s not a training problem. You can’t rehab them, nothings wrong with them.
People won’t stop showing their mares. They will just show them through the pain/moodiness. And that’s not fair for the mare and it’s not particularly safe for surrounding competitors in some cases.
Ugh, this really gets me upset. My inner feminist is coming out to defend the mares. And I don’t even own a mare right now…

[mvp]

[QUOTE=sassy;9029145]
My gelding used to be on it because of his ADHD (lol!) it made him less spooky but also dull. So I took him off of it. He can be a little effer and stare at random things outside the ring every now and then but most of the time he’s just sharper and jumps better :D[/QUOTE]

See, this is why I think the stuff is “Performance enhancing”… at least when used in geldings. And if we were more breeding-oriented in this country, we’d appreciate that mares who were distracted by their own biology were using performance-enhancing “crutches” as well. (And heck, by the same token, I wouldn’t breed a stallion who couldn’t suit up, show up and do a job really well.)

My point is that the calmness, focus and rideability of the hunter was thought to come from his having understood his job.

Sure, horses have different levels of reactivity. (I currently have a dressage mare who is far hotter than any hunter I ever owned or would choose). But you know what? The hunters taught me how to teach a horse to focus, and this mare is getting that, too.

Teaching a horse to listen and learn: It’s a training skill and it takes time.

[Sunflower]

Is there scientific research evidence of the efficacy of these in treating supposed menstrual pain in mares? A mare’s cycle is not identical to a human cycle. There is such a history of pathologizing female biology-- I just wonder what science says about how these drugs work in controlling pain in mares, as opposed to cycle supression. It might simply be anthropomorisizing to think horses experience anything like human females do during a menstrual cycle. No idea if they do or not-- I will search for some science on this-- but if anyone knows anything I would be curious to read.

My impression was that these drugs were given to mares to suppress cycles for behavior, not for pain control. But I might be wrong.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I have no comment on rule or proposed rule…I’ve only every used Depo on a mare as an alternative to Regumate.

BUT wanted to point out for those who posted who seem unaware…you CAN get Regumate as an injectable rather than oral. No cost saving but changes how you give it to be similar to how you give Depo…so less risky for women. That said, we still use the daily oral Regumate on our breeding mares rather than the injectable as the oral is more reliable. But I use the injectable on my performance mare.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

And yes…we use Regumate for pain control. My performance mare gets very back sore when cycling. When on Regumate or Depo, her cycle related back pain is significantly reduced.

[Mac123]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;9027428]

The use I (and everyone I know) use it for is to reduce moodiness, not for quieting. My horse is DEAD LAZY as is, but I use depo on him to reduce his chances at lunging at the mares in the barn (yes he does this sometimes, with me on him when they get too close), to enhance his focus on me and not his buddies in the barn, and to generally allow him to be happier to do his job. It does not alter his performance in any other way. At shows, he’s the same as ever…but maybe he’ll be less likely to bite at another horse, or happier to walk away from his buddies into the ring. It won’t affect his gait, jump, or anything else. [/QUOTE]

Uhhhhh…There’s a lot of other ways to enhance performance other than making a horse quiet. Improving a horse’s focus and attitude would be two of the other top reasons. Reserpine, for example, is often used to make a horse more trainable - not just to make it quiet.

A horse that lunges at another horse during a hack class, or is focused on his buddies and has a magnetic pull towards them in the ring which pulls them off the line, or is moody and ear-pinned all the time is NOT competitive, regardless of how well he moves or jumps.

Giving him Depo to keep him from lunging at other horses, keeps him focused and on task, and keeps his expression pleasant is most certainly enhancing his performance.

But no one really cares about that little part of the rules. They just care about what won’t test or what will. And if Depo can’t be used, something else that won’t test will certainly take its place. Like Perfect Prep. Or the hundreds of other focus-enhancing or quieting supplements that say “WON’T TEST!!” in big letters on the can.

I swear to God, it’s a mystery how everyone can have the perspective that PP, Depo in Geldings, other supplements are totally fine simply because they won’t test and then be just so astounded and offended and outraged when Larry or Kelly tests + for GABA.

Altering performance with drugs or supplements is a CULTURE that probably 90% of us ascribe to, whether we want to be honest about it or not.

FTR I think the mares should still have access to Depo, because it’s treating specific problems tied to their cycle, not just enhancing the performance.

[findeight]

Suppressing estrus can eliminate estrus caused pain in mares. Not aware of any other pain relief offered by it.

[Sunflower]

I am interested in evidence of caustion vs correlation in behavior change-- thus-- wanting to find some science research articles on this. For instance, behavior can change when something is given/done but that does not mean it is the source or cause of the change. Case in point, my formerly highly distractable gelding-- was told to try some magensium supplement, so I did, and voila, his attention improved. When the magensium ran out, I never replaced it but his attention has remained fine. Did it cause the change? Unlikely. Did something else, probably, did lots of things cause it, probably, things like rider attitude (placebo effect?), change in seasons, who knows…

I once had a fire cracker hot fancy mare who I got for next to nothing, because she had dumped her rider when bolting. I put her on Regumate, and tried to work with her on various things on the flat. This was in the Dark Ages before saddle fitters were very common. I got her back checked, voila, sore back, got better fitting saddle, end of fire cracker hot. She was a gem. Took her off the Regumate, her behavior remained beautiful.

I am not saying these things never have the desired effect. But in my experience, no, they did not. Other things did.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Sunflower…your experience is not unusual. Often a horse that had a deficiency of Magnesium improves on the supplement. Once the supplement reduce that deficiency, your current feeding was able to maintain it without supplement. Some horses, you need the supplement to continue in order to maintain because their feed, hay or their own inefficient body in metabolizing it. But most horses that I know don’t need to stay on it forever.

I have one who out of a barn of 20 is vite E deficient. I put him on his supplement and it helps…recheck his blood often. Every time we pull him off the supplement, he tests deficient again.

[findeight]

I think people grab at straws trying to fix training problems or even lack of quality or suitability with drugs. Hormones or PP, it’s a mindset. I don’t have any answers.

I’ve had 3 mares. 2 were never bothered by their cycles. The one that was didn’t exhibit any signs of pain. But the wicked witch don’t touch me behavior every 3 weeks, screaming and even standing on hind legs squealing - with me aboard-gets old and you can’t train them to shut up or clicker train them to want to be touched when it’s hormonal. The hind leg antics were dealt with as the training problem they were…but she still squealed under her breath.

Those need help. One purported side effect of regular RM use over time is inability to carry a fetus to term. I had no trouble with that possibility, I wouldn’t want to be responsible for another. Terrific show horse though. In winter or during the 6 months on RM.

Oddly, aquaintance with a sometimes pushy WB gelding used more RM then I did and used it all year for years.

[Ghazzu]

How can anyone who says they are using it because their horse is “moody” claim they are not using it to affect behavior?

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=findeight;9029253]
For those worried about handling Regumate despite the pump applicator, there is an injectable version…or wear gloves as my barns do. [/QUOTE]

Mitigation works great until it doesn’t: I handled a bucket that had had Regumate-laced feed in it without realizing that and my life was absolute hell for weeks afterward.

This was at a barn where that mixup should not have happened, but it did.

Many medications and substances carry risks, absolutely. But the risks of Regumate to women are very well known. Not being comfortable with this particular risk is a valid concern. You might not share it, but that doesn’t invalidate it.

[mroades]

But where do you draw the line, especially with Perfect Prep as a major sponsor…???