Anyone hear anything about USEF ban on Depo-Provara & Regumate?

[Sunflower]

re: magnesium

I went looking for science articles that show the efficacy of magnesium on horses ( i.e. calming agent, attention improver, etc, )but all I could find in a quick search was a lot of hype by feed sales sites that sell magnesium. Not exactly the proof or evidence or information I was looking for. Supplements are a money maker for feed companies-- why wouldn’t they hype their product with vague statements of effectiveness? But those statements are advertisements, not scientific evidence.

http://www.horsehero.com/editorial?feat=83626

Here is something making claims in favor of chleated calcium and warning about magnesium, for instance.

There is a lot of conflicting information, some psuedo-science and very little in the way of objective science on magnesium.

I do have to wonder how much of the claims of chemical benefit are a sort of placebo effect in the rider’s mind.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Sunflower-

Those are 2 different points. Mag is well studies scientifically, but not in horses. Its effects on the cardiovascular system in particular are very well known. Deficiency AND Mag intoxication are real.

Companies jumping on a supplement and spinning to a market- that’s a whole bag of worms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198864/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4297308/

[Tackpud]

Sunflower asked - Is there scientific research evidence of the efficacy of these in treating supposed menstrual pain in mares?

Not that I am aware of, however, I had a mare who would throw herself against the sides of the stall whenever she was in season. A reproductive exam showed that she was overproducing eggs leading to basic torture for the mare. She was in season almost all the time and the behavior was difficult to watch. She never tried anything bad toward a human, but she was hurting herself in the stall - even throwing herself against cinder block walls in stalls at horse shows. The vet suggested Regumate or breeding her to try to get her cycle under control and alleviate her pain. Regumate never did enough, but I bred her twice and after that no more problems. Unfortunately she threw contracted tendons so I did not continue to breed her even though she was an awesome mother. I don’t believe in perpetuating conformation flaws, so she went back to work and was a completely different animal to deal with. So I’d say she was in pain and changing her cycle removed the pain.

[HappyAmmy]

I’m jumping in at the total risk of being called a troll or something else because this is my first post. But I am a long term stalker, old recovering junior who believes her brain when it says her body can still qualify for the Maclay even while my body is struggling to execute a left hand turn. I have 2 horses: the most laid back 4 year old Oldenburg and the most princess-y 10 year old Hanovarian that my 15 year old actual junior rider daughter rides. Also an A pony clubber and longtime A show rider so there are my credentials to verify I’m not a troll.
I actually joined the forums for this post because of the aforementioned princess Hanovarian. When she turned 5 she began colicing. Regularly. In the spring. Hmmm I thought…first cycles of the year must kind a suck for a young mare with a low pain tolerance. Started Regu-mate. Some improvement but not awesomely gone. (insert side bar … lost pony when kid was 10 to ruptured intestine…pony died in daughter’s lap. Every colic after incites panic in the kid that takes weeks WEEKS! to defuse.) Every colic got banamine or stronger and the RM wasn’t killing colic as I’d hoped. Option two presented when I changed barns as a result of a move. Better care all around, treatment of ulcers and voila a new horse. Except for the every 3 weeks crippling back pain that resulted in the pissyest princess you’ve ever seen. Pelvic exam during this time…huge follicles and ovarian corpus leutum cycsts. Mittleschmirtz for horses. (another side note - mare would display signs of intense colic pain (pawing, up/down, kicking, biting, gnashing of teeth. Clinical vital signs totally normal…no elevated HR in response to pain…Vet diagnosis…Princess). Vet said mare needs depo…won’t probably stop estrus but it will make the process a lot more comfortable for her. 6 mL each week IM and voila the mare yawns before and after her rides, is happy as a clam even when she is in season. Smaller follicles equals less pain and back muscle spasms. So an outright ban on Depo is really asking me to put my horse back in pain which seems counter to the animal welfare intention. If they move forward there must be an acceptable level of medroxyprogesterone to accommodate the therapeutic benefit to mares. How is this different than acceptable NSAIDS? Altrenogest just doesn’t do it for some, and it is not really ideal to have around the barn and honestly the injection stuff is ridiculously expensive. Just my 2 cents. And maybe now I will post a bit more about the things I read since I pulled the trigger on registering.

[HappyAmmy]

I’m jumping in at the total risk of being called a troll or something else because this is my first post. But I am a long term stalker, old recovering junior who believes her brain when it says her body can still qualify for the Maclay even while my body is struggling to execute a left hand turn. I have 2 horses: the most laid back 4 year old Oldenburg and the most princess-y 10 year old Hanovarian that my 15 year old actual junior rider daughter rides. Also an A pony clubber and longtime A show rider so there are my credentials to verify I’m not a troll.
I actually joined the forums for this post because of the aforementioned princess Hanovarian. When she turned 5 she began colicing. Regularly. In the spring. Hmmm I thought…first cycles of the year must kind a suck for a young mare with a low pain tolerance. Started Regu-mate. Some improvement but not awesomely gone. (insert side bar … lost pony when kid was 10 to ruptured intestine…pony died in daughter’s lap. Every colic after incites panic in the kid that takes weeks WEEKS! to defuse.) Every colic got banamine or stronger and the RM wasn’t killing colic as I’d hoped. Option two presented when I changed barns as a result of a move. Better care all around, treatment of ulcers and voila a new horse. Except for the every 3 weeks crippling back pain that resulted in the pissyest princess you’ve ever seen. Pelvic exam during this time…huge follicles and ovarian corpus leutum cycsts. Mittleschmirtz for horses. (another side note - mare would display signs of intense colic pain (pawing, up/down, kicking, biting, gnashing of teeth. Clinical vital signs totally normal…no elevated HR in response to pain…Vet diagnosis…Princess). Vet said mare needs depo…won’t probably stop estrus but it will make the process a lot more comfortable for her. 6 mL each week IM and voila the mare yawns before and after her rides, is happy as a clam even when she is in season. Smaller follicles equals less pain and back muscle spasms. So an outright ban on Depo is really asking me to put my horse back in pain which seems counter to the animal welfare intention. If they move forward there must be an acceptable level of medroxyprogesterone to accommodate the therapeutic benefit to mares. How is this different than acceptable NSAIDS? Altrenogest just doesn’t do it for some, and it is not really ideal to have around the barn and honestly the injection stuff is ridiculously expensive. Just my 2 cents. And maybe now I will post a bit more about the things I read since I pulled the trigger on registering.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

My mare will, like HappyAmmy’s, present with colic-like symptoms during her transitional cycles. Depo keeps her happy and pain-free, so I keep her on depo Spring to Fall.

Keeping the mares from cycling also makes it much safer to handle the resident stallion. He is not distracted by mares in heat in the barn, the grooming stalls, the rings or the paddocks. Since he is a GP jumper, believe me he can leave his paddock to get to a mare if he wants to. Why risk that?

[RockinHorse]

I have no information on the proposed rule but, FYI, the OP did say the ban would be for gelding and stallions, not mares.

A broker I’ve used posted a notice a vet clinic placed on facebook saying USEF intends to ban Depo altogether and regumate for geldings/stallions (mares can still be on it). Didn’t state when the rule would come into affect. Anyone know anything about this? A friend of mine said her vet told her the same thing. I don’t have a horse in this race, so to speak, as none of my barn is currently on depo or regumate (though I have had mares and a gelding in the past on depo), but I feel like that could be a real game changer in a bad way for a lot of horses

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=HappyAmmy;9030761]
So an outright ban on Depo is really asking me to put my horse back in pain which seems counter to the animal welfare intention.[/QUOTE]

The ban would be for SHOWING while using it. You can still give it for a medical reason, to keep your horse out of pain.

[ChelseaR]

[QUOTE=HappyAmmy;9030764]
I’m jumping in at the total risk of being called a troll or something else because this is my first post. But I am a long term stalker, old recovering junior who believes her brain when it says her body can still qualify for the Maclay even while my body is struggling to execute a left hand turn. I have 2 horses: the most laid back 4 year old Oldenburg and the most princess-y 10 year old Hanovarian that my 15 year old actual junior rider daughter rides. Also an A pony clubber and longtime A show rider so there are my credentials to verify I’m not a troll.
I actually joined the forums for this post because of the aforementioned princess Hanovarian. When she turned 5 she began colicing. Regularly. In the spring. Hmmm I thought…first cycles of the year must kind a suck for a young mare with a low pain tolerance. Started Regu-mate. Some improvement but not awesomely gone. (insert side bar … lost pony when kid was 10 to ruptured intestine…pony died in daughter’s lap. Every colic after incites panic in the kid that takes weeks WEEKS! to defuse.) Every colic got banamine or stronger and the RM wasn’t killing colic as I’d hoped. Option two presented when I changed barns as a result of a move. Better care all around, treatment of ulcers and voila a new horse. Except for the every 3 weeks crippling back pain that resulted in the pissyest princess you’ve ever seen. Pelvic exam during this time…huge follicles and ovarian corpus leutum cycsts. Mittleschmirtz for horses. (another side note - mare would display signs of intense colic pain (pawing, up/down, kicking, biting, gnashing of teeth. Clinical vital signs totally normal…no elevated HR in response to pain…Vet diagnosis…Princess). Vet said mare needs depo…won’t probably stop estrus but it will make the process a lot more comfortable for her. 6 mL each week IM and voila the mare yawns before and after her rides, is happy as a clam even when she is in season. Smaller follicles equals less pain and back muscle spasms. So an outright ban on Depo is really asking me to put my horse back in pain which seems counter to the animal welfare intention. If they move forward there must be an acceptable level of medroxyprogesterone to accommodate the therapeutic benefit to mares. How is this different than acceptable NSAIDS? Altrenogest just doesn’t do it for some, and it is not really ideal to have around the barn and honestly the injection stuff is ridiculously expensive. Just my 2 cents. And maybe now I will post a bit more about the things I read since I pulled the trigger on registering.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn’t spaying the mare in this case be a better option? She’s obviously not a candidate for breeding (due to reproductive issues - why pass that on).

[findeight]

Think most understand the very big difference between human menstruation and a heat cycle in many mammals, like horses. But a few comments make me think some don’t. They are not the same at all and attributing similar symptoms for similar reasons can lead to incorrect assumptions.

A mare in heat is…ah…looking to hook up. Bad. A human suffering PMS? Last thing they are interested in. It’s not really a good comparison trying to explain unacceptable, hormonal behavior in mares.

[AmmyByNature]

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;9030846]
Wouldn’t spaying the mare in this case be a better option? She’s obviously not a candidate for breeding (due to reproductive issues - why pass that on).[/QUOTE]

Most people prefer non-surgical solutions when they are available.

[DressageChic2]

dressage rider stepping over the border here…im UK too so that adds confusion but we haven’t been able to use these in male horses for like ever…

a tip i was given by someone i really respect was dried raspberry leaf, for the boys and the girls, to help focus.

i give a large mugful a day to my stallion and i would say it does just help him stay in MY zone a bit easier and get there a bit quicker…he is super duper good and not studdy really but this just settles him in to gelding mode a bit quicker if there is a sexy horse around lol.

[CustomDesign]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;9030810]
I have no information on the proposed rule but, FYI, the OP did say the ban would be for gelding and stallions, not mares.[/QUOTE]

I believe what they’re saying is Regumate would still be allowed for mares, but Depo would not be allowed for any horse.

[HappyAmmy]

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;9030846]
Wouldn’t spaying the mare in this case be a better option? She’s obviously not a candidate for breeding (due to reproductive issues - why pass that on).[/QUOTE]

Her only reproductive issue is that she ovulates and is a princess about it. You body clip her and she breaks out in hives. She gets a nick, her whole leg swells up and you would think she had been amputated. She’s a bit overdramatic when it comes to pain. So spaying seems quite extreme when ovulatory pain can be managed. And the vets who have evaluated her and reviewed her bloodlines think she would be an exceptional mare for breeding since she is registered as an Elite Mare in the Hanovarian Main Stud book. I think I’ll let her keep her uterus and ovaries and indulge her dramatic side a tad.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=HappyAmmy;9031158]
Her only reproductive issue is that she ovulates and is a princess about it. You body clip her and she breaks out in hives. She gets a nick, her whole leg swells up and you would think she had been amputated. She’s a bit overdramatic when it comes to pain. So spaying seems quite extreme when ovulatory pain can be managed. And the vets who have evaluated her and reviewed her bloodlines think she would be an exceptional mare for breeding since she is registered as an Elite Mare in the Hanovarian Main Stud book. I think I’ll let her keep her uterus and ovaries and indulge her dramatic side a tad.[/QUOTE]

I have never heard of spaying a mare? That would be subjecting her to abdominal surgery right? Is that something people do? And if so it seems as if it would be quite expensive and invasive. Is that a thing?

[TullyMars]

What I heard in the meeting was that the Depo part would perhaps come sooner than the Regumate part as far as enforcement and that the Regumate would be for the geldings and stallions that are on it. It was awfully early in the morning when the meeting happened and I may have been nodding off at my desk and imagined it all…!

[Xctrygirl]

An ovariectomy can be done standing.

https://www.acvs.org/large-animal/standing-equine-ovariectomy

http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/mare-spay-26811

[findeight]

Spaying has always been an option. Unless you have been around high level competition mares, you may not be aware it’s become more common and much easier on Mare and wallet these days.

Now done standing with minimal down time. Still not the first choice when less drastic measures are available, like RM, and owner might like to keep a baby out of an exceptional Mare as an option.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

HappyAmmy–When I priced injectable RM with oral…my costs came out the same. Now it IS a ton more expensive than Depo…but both are.

I also suspect that there is a wide range of pricing that vets do on injectable RM as you can have it compounded very differently.

[Mac123]

[QUOTE=mroades;9030376]
But where do you draw the line, especially with Perfect Prep as a major sponsor…???[/QUOTE]

That’s why I said that this is a culture that 90% of us support even when we’re not honest about it - including the USEF that allows a quieting substance to be a major sponsor.

We’ve created a culture where certain things are considered acceptable and even recommended, even though they violate the drugging rules.

And then we get surprised when people use other illegal things that test.

No one is willing to make changes in the overall management, horsemanship and level of riding to give up all the quieting and focus supplements and drugs. It’s way too much of an industry.