Anyone here have a service dog?

[Real_Rush]

I ran to Publix to get a sandwich for luch (best sammiches ever!) and grab a few things while I was there. At one point, passed a guy pushing a buggy and leading a rather large Rottweiler. The dog had no vest or anything on that identified him as a service dog. So on my way out, I stopped to ask one of the front counter ladies that I know what the deal was. Said that yes, they know the guy, his previous service dog passed away and the Rotty is his new one, but he doesn’t like to put the dog’s vest on.

Now, I can understand that maybe he might be embarrassed to have to acknowledge he needs a service dog, or doesn’t like having to explain his situation to every nosy stranger. But at the same time, a Rotty is an unusual breed for service, and seeing some guy just strolling around the local grocery store with a dog would seem to raise even more questions (like I did), or even cause some people to respond quite negatively to the owner. I’m kinda stuck between understanding the situation and being uncomfortable that the dog was not identified properly. How would you feel in the same situation?

[RHdobes563]

Wear the vest. For one thing, it SHOULD keep people from saying, “Can I pet your dog?” while it’s working. For another, I think there are a LOT of people now saying that have ‘service dogs’ where the dog has never been certified.

JMO.

[beowulf]

there are different types of service dogs - it depends on what his handicap is. I know that in one of the restaurants I worked in down south (seems like a lifetime ago) we had a man who was extremely epileptic that had a service dog that was a mutt. The only thing the dog had that suggested it was a service dog was a service dog tag/ID/number (not exactly sure what it is) on its collar.

[Horsegal984]

And the dog is not legally required to wear anything that identifies it as a service dog. However the vast majority wear a vest because it’s so obvious and stops people from questioning.

[vacation1]

At this point, I think I’d assume anything other than a Golden or Lab or German Shepherd was a fake. I particularly like the ones which wear e-collars and headcollars, and the ones whose handlers bring into stores on 15’ leads. Yeah, a 15’ lead will absolutely lend credence to your claims that’s a working animal.

The ADA was a great thing for real working service dogs who’d been professionally trained to assist people, unfortunate that it’s being used by shitty people.

[Horsegal984]

I do hate that the system is so abused. Every faker out there with a poorly trained dog just makes it so much harder for people with real service dogs, because the bad experiences are what sticks out in people’s minds. It is even worse for people with a true medical need for a service dog that is not visible, such as a diabetic or seizure alert dog, or a PTSD dog. So many people feel if you don’t “look” sick you don’t have a condition that warrants the dogs help.

[MoonlightsMom]

According to the ADA service dogs do not need to be certified or wear anything identifying them as service dogs. There is no national organization that certifies service dogs, instead several independant organizations where you can ‘register’ your service dog and get paperwork saying your dog is registered. Legally, if someone has a service dog with them, the only questions they can be asked by the employees of the businesses they go to is “is the service animal required because of a disability?”.

My GSD is in training to be my PTSD service dog. When we go out places I put his “In Training” vest on because it does avoid some questions, and it keeps most people from trying to pet him. He still has an ‘In Training’ vest vs. a ‘Service Dog’ vest because he is not finished training yet, and from time to time he does not act like a finished service dog. He is still getting used to walking around stores with me when Im with someone else, he is sensetive to noise and if we are somewhere with a ver loud shrill noise he gets a little fidgity (Lowes making keys for example, he was in a sit/stay facing behind me to alert if anyone walked up and he kept quietly whining and trying to lay down.) Once I am 100% certian he will act as he should in every situation that arises, I will buy him the ‘Service Dog’ patches for his vest.

There are no rules or regulations about what breeds can or can’t be used as service dogs. As long as the dog is a good match with the handler, is capable of performing the tasks required by the handler, and is NOT aggressive, any dog can be used. Small dogs cannot be used for anyone that needs any mobility help, as the small dog wouldn’t be able to support any weight to help with mobility. Small dogs also cannot be used for autism dogs, as one of the big tasks for autism dogs is tethering, where the autistic child is wearing a harness and tethered to the dog (also wearing a harness). If the child tries to run off, the dog is trained to sit or lay down to resist the pressure and keep the child from running away.

My best friend trains service dogs, and she is helping me train my GSD in exchange for my help when she gets stuck on something with one of her dogs. So far I have seen her train boxers, pitbulls, laberdoodles, labs, pit/boxer mix, and GSDs as service dogs. There are several PTSD service dog organizations I follow on facebook that specifically choose to use rescued shelter dogs (with the right temperment) as service dogs. There are also organizations that have their own breeding programs and stick to specific breeds (labs, goldens, shepherds). Neither way is right or wrong, as long as they turn out well trained, well socialized dogs.

[MoonlightsMom]

[QUOTE=vacation1;8179104]
At this point, I think I’d assume anything other than a Golden or Lab or German Shepherd was a fake. I particularly like the ones which wear e-collars and headcollars, and the ones whose handlers bring into stores on 15’ leads. Yeah, a 15’ lead will absolutely lend credence to your claims that’s a working animal.

The ADA was a great thing for real working service dogs who’d been professionally trained to assist people, unfortunate that it’s being used by shitty people.[/QUOTE]

E collars, head collars, and long leads are all great tools given the right time and place. For some dog teams, the handler may feel more comfortable with an e collar or head collar as extra insurance that their dog is going to behave accordingly. For example, I have been part of my dog’s training from day 1. I know his strengths and weaknesses, as he is still in training I know how to set him up for success. Having him with me helps me very much, and reduces a LOT of my anxiety about going out in public. However, I still use his pinch collar (even though I know he doesn’t need it anymore) because I get anxious thinking that he might do something he shouldn’t, such as turn his head and sniff things on shelves as we pass, and I will have to make an obvious correction and draw more attention to us.

I personally have not used a 15 foot lead when going to stores or out to eat, but I do use it when we go to parks and its not crowded so I can work on his off leash obedience while still having control of him on the off chance he didn’t listen.

Just because the tools a handler is using doesn’t fit your idea of what should be used, or the breed doesn’t fit your idea of a service dog, don’t assume they are a fake. Just like with training all disciplines of horses, there are many right ways to do it, it just depends on what works best for the animal and their handler. If the dog is behaving like a service dog, the gear the handler is or isn’t using is irrelevant.

[MoonlightsMom]

[QUOTE=Real Rush;8178283]
I ran to Publix to get a sandwich for luch (best sammiches ever!) and grab a few things while I was there. At one point, passed a guy pushing a buggy and leading a rather large Rottweiler. The dog had no vest or anything on that identified him as a service dog. So on my way out, I stopped to ask one of the front counter ladies that I know what the deal was. Said that yes, they know the guy, his previous service dog passed away and the Rotty is his new one, but he doesn’t like to put the dog’s vest on.

Now, I can understand that maybe he might be embarrassed to have to acknowledge he needs a service dog, or doesn’t like having to explain his situation to every nosy stranger. But at the same time, a Rotty is an unusual breed for service, and seeing some guy just strolling around the local grocery store with a dog would seem to raise even more questions (like I did), or even cause some people to respond quite negatively to the owner. I’m kinda stuck between understanding the situation and being uncomfortable that the dog was not identified properly. How would you feel in the same situation?[/QUOTE]

OP, the dog does not need to have any identification. From what you said, the dog doesn’t appear to have been behaving in a way that would make you feel uncomfortable or would give the store manager a legitimate reason to ask the dog to leave (being aggressive, not being potty trained, being unruly, etc). Im sorry you were so upset by seeing a service dog team out in public without a vest on, but legally it sounds like they were perfectly within their rights, and from a service dog handler point of view I feel that you are over reacting about something that essentially has no impact on you.

[khall]

Rotties are working dogs I could very easily see them as a service dog.

Moonlightmom, does your friend use rescue dogs to train for service? Animal Farm foundation specifically uses rescue pit bulls to train as service dogs, I have a foster pit bull that I think would make a service dog she is so intelligent.

[MoonlightsMom]

[QUOTE=khall;8179255]
Rotties are working dogs I could very easily see them as a service dog.

Moonlightmom, does your friend use rescue dogs to train for service? Animal Farm foundation specifically uses rescue pit bulls to train as service dogs, I have a foster pit bull that I think would make a service dog she is so intelligent.[/QUOTE]

My friend will either train the handler’s personal dog if it has the right temperment, or if the handler doesnt have a dog (or a suitable one) she will look at what is available from the local shelters or posted as free to a good home on craigslist and other local sales sites. The only ‘rules’ she has about rescues are they must be healthy, pass several temperment tests, and if it is a mix it cannot clearly be a mix of 2 protective breeds (ie: chow/GSD mix).

[NorCalDressage]

Moonlights - Thanks for taking the time to post - that was insightful & informative!

We also have a local group that trains mostly PTSD service dogs - usually for Veterans, but also others.

They will pull dogs from the shelters as well. There is certainitly a large group to choose from (County usually has about 200 on a given day) and they are obviously good at spotting the ones that will be good candidates, despite maybe not being you “typical” service breed. Makes them able to have trained dogs available for less cost to the person that needs the service dog.

[Real_Rush]

It’s not that I was terribly upset, I was just surprised. Every service animal I’ve ever seen has always had a vest on, identifying them as such. No, the dog was not acting inappropriately, and the gentlemen did have him on a short leash. He was using a type of pinch collar where the prongs of each link would dig into the neck if he had to reprimand the dog.

Without any identification, one would then be prone to think this was just some random dude who thinks he can call his dog a service animal in order to get away with taking him everywhere, as others have stated. That (and the setting, a grocery store filled with good yummies for a dog! ) is what made me uncomfortable about the situation.

[Horsegal984]

OP, you know you can order a service dog vest on eBay/etsy/many other online stores, so any imposter can order one too. The vest doesn’t make the dog legit any more than a fake ID makes a person legal.

Its also entirely possible he uses a prong collar for either the reason listed above or maybe part of his disability causes weakness and he needs the strength of the collar for more subtle corrections. Either way, it doesn’t really matter if you were “uncomfortable”, the dog and handler were well within their rights from the sound of it so you’ll have to learn to live with your discomfort.

[MoonlightsMom]

[QUOTE=Real Rush;8179401]
It’s not that I was terribly upset, I was just surprised. Every service animal I’ve ever seen has always had a vest on, identifying them as such. No, the dog was not acting inappropriately, and the gentlemen did have him on a short leash. He was using a type of pinch collar where the prongs of each link would dig into the neck if he had to reprimand the dog.

Without any identification, one would then be prone to think this was just some random dude who thinks he can call his dog a service animal in order to get away with taking him everywhere, as others have stated. That (and the setting, a grocery store filled with good yummies for a dog! ) is what made me uncomfortable about the situation.[/QUOTE]

OP, as long as the dog was acting appropriately there is no reason for concern. People that I hear talking to one another as I pass with my dog about how I don’t look like I need a service dog, the people that make a big deal about my dog being a GSD, the people that make nasty comments to each other betting when my dog will try to snag a bite of food as we walk past (even though he knows not to even look at or smell it), and the people who make snide comments about my dog better be potty trained are a big reason why I have anxiety about taking my legitimate service dog out in public. It is a big issue I am struggling to overcome - I am so anxious about social situations I cannot go to the store alone without being on the verge of a panic attack, quickly walking as fast as I can through the store, and repeating over and over to myself what I am there for in order to focus on THAT and not the people around me. Once I started bringing my dog with me that all went away, until people started making nasty comments about my dog. I still do better with my dog with me, but I very much wish that more people were educated about service dogs and the immense amount of training they go through before ever entering the general public.

As long as the dog is acting appropriately, there is no reason to get upset about service dogs in public, even if they don’t have a vest on! I would rather run into a well trained dog without a vest than a maniac on a leash with a vest.

[apcohrs]

I have a friend who has a service dog. Among other things, she has balance issues and needs a big dog. Her last dog was a superbly trained mastiff X who sadly passed away last week. She cant afford a pure bred dog, so she will always have non-traditional service dogs.

[RPM]

I guess I am gonna be considered weird because I think it would be fine for a well-mannered dog on leash to be in a grocery store or pretty much any kind of store.

I don’t know how things are done nowadays in Britain and Europe re: dogs in public places, but when I was in England and Europe years ago I met a bulldog in an antique shop and saw a couple of dogs sitting with their owners in coffee shops/restaurants. We Americans thought, Wow, that’s unusual! … That’s cool!

These days with dogs and other animals visiting in hospitals and nursing homes, I don’t see a problem with a well-behaved one in a grocery store. Rather that than kids running around loose and squealing and backing into shopping carts and handling all the merchandise with their sticky little fingers that haven’t been washed in who knows how long!

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=MoonlightsMom;8179246]
E collars, head collars, and long leads are all great tools given the right time and place. For some dog teams, the handler may feel more comfortable with an e collar or head collar as extra insurance that their dog is going to behave accordingly… Just because the tools a handler is using doesn’t fit your idea of what should be used, or the breed doesn’t fit your idea of a service dog, don’t assume they are a fake. Just like with training all disciplines of horses, there are many right ways to do it, it just depends on what works best for the animal and their handler. If the dog is behaving like a service dog, the gear the handler is or isn’t using is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

The training tools being used are entirely relevant to whether the dog they’re being used on is a real service dog with an appropriate temperament to be used in this extremely challenging, demanding manner. Things like e-collars and prongs may have a legitimate place in training, but that place is not in the public space training of a service animal. If your dog is temperamentally suitable for service work - which entails a great deal of interaction with other people in close proximity, in places to which dogs are not otherwise entitled to enter - it shouldn’t ever need those sort of tools. At the very least, the dog and handler should be past the stage of needing the ‘reassurance’ of these more powerful backup tools by the time you begin incorporating practice in stores, etc. I think this is a key mistake in amateur training of personal service dogs - the impulse is to gain access first and then train.

[MoonlightsMom]

[QUOTE=vacation1;8180394]
The training tools being used are entirely relevant to whether the dog they’re being used on is a real service dog with an appropriate temperament to be used in this extremely challenging, demanding manner. Things like e-collars and prongs may have a legitimate place in training, but that place is not in the public space training of a service animal. If your dog is temperamentally suitable for service work - which entails a great deal of interaction with other people in close proximity, in places to which dogs are not otherwise entitled to enter - it shouldn’t ever need those sort of tools. At the very least, the dog and handler should be past the stage of needing the ‘reassurance’ of these more powerful backup tools by the time you begin incorporating practice in stores, etc. I think this is a key mistake in amateur training of personal service dogs - the impulse is to gain access first and then train.[/QUOTE]

That is so wrong, I dont even know where to begin. Some handlers DUE TO THEIR DISABILITIES need to use such tools. There are handlers that dont have the strength in their hands to be able to give a correction if needed, but can hit the button for the e collar, or can give said correction easier via headcollar or pinch collar. There are handlers that DUE TO THEIR DISABILITIES are more comfortable if they know it wont be clearly evident if they need to correct their dog. Like all animals, dogs are constantly learning. Therefore, no matter how much training they have had they are always still recieving more training (as a horse person, I thought you would know that as it is the same with horses). A dog’s temperment has nothing to do with weather or not they use training tools in public.

How do you expect trainers to be able to teach service dogs to lay quietly and not move under the table during a meal or walk through the grocery store without even turing their head to sniff anything if the trainers dont use training aides that allow them to give a quick, percise, and almost unnoticable correction? How do you expect handlers that have just been paired with their dog to feel comfortable going out in public with their dog if they feel they don’t have the tools to give their dog a correction if needed?

We could look at this in terms of horses - if I were to say that bits harsher than a snaffle and tools like martingales have a valid place in training, but if the horse is going to be seen by the public it should be past the point of needing such tools. How many people would be up in arms defending the valid use of such tools? There is a time and a place for training tools, and some riders/handlers HAVE to use them, other choose to use them because they feel more comfortable, or their animal performs slightly better using one (or more) and the rider/handler would rather show their animal to the public at its best.

[2tempe]

not to side track but the area I live in here in central Fl. is VERY dog friendly; most restaurants with patios allow dogs, most stores allow dogs in. The major exceptions are the food stores, except for service dogs.
my dogs are fairly large - chow mixes - and they have been shoe shopping, clothes shopping, gift shopping, and into about every store in town.
Its great that owners allow this, excellent for the dogs’ socialization and training, and most people seem to love it.

Re collars, I currently have a smaller dog that I walk in a prong collar. Got it on advice of trainer as he has sensitive trachea area and it is the only collar that doesn’t make him choke if he puts any forward pressure on it. I’ve tried several harnesses but even they mostly sit too high.

OP - as pointed out there are dogs in vests who aren’t really service dogs, so that doesn’t help in the ID thing. I would say that the ONE place I wouldn’t question the dog is Publix given the laws/regs about food and animals.