Anyone purpose-breeding the old style, heavier WBs?

[Fancy_That]

A thread on the driving forum got me interested and curious about whether breeders are purposefully trying to keep the old style, heavier European Warmblood type. (not talking about RID or Cleveland Bays)

I understand many WB breeders want to “lighten up”, “modernize” and add more “blood” And I get why (for performance at the upper levels)

BUT - what happens if bone and substance are lost? We will always need the heavier, older type WB (think: Gelderlander, old-style Holstein & Oldenburg) if we need to ADD bone and substance, right?

Just curious if anyone here liked these type of WBs or even bred them purposefully.

I understand there is an International Heavy Warmblood Registry that I believe is Dutch-based, but crosses borders. Just not sure if there really are alot of breeders trying to keep that type.

Anyone here a fan of the old-style WB? Or is everyone going for the lighter, leggier, more modern type in order to be successful at the upper levels?

[okggo]

Yup - I love old style! If I want “modern and leggy” I’ll buy a nice TB.

My goals long term are crossing Irish and old-style performance WB lines with a bit of blood. One of my keeper fillies has very nice bone/substance and I would not want to breed that out (aka no refining stallions for her). I’m looking for a nicely bred ID and/or IDxWB broodmare with the purpose of crossing with studs like Baron and Cielo.

I LOVE bone on a horse.

[Fancy_That]

[QUOTE=okggo;4584242]
Yup - I love old style! If I want “modern and leggy” I’ll buy a nice TB.

My goals long term are crossing Irish and old-style performance WB lines with a bit of blood. One of my keeper fillies has very nice bone/substance and I would not want to breed that out (aka no refining stallions for her). I’m looking for a nicely bred ID and/or IDxWB broodmare with the purpose of crossing with studs like Baron and Cielo.

I LOVE bone on a horse.[/QUOTE]

Great to hear that. I know bone and substance will always be alive and well because of RIDs… but specifically the NON Irish, European WBs is what I was wondering about. (simply because I always see the modern type in competition and being bred for)

Anyone into Groningers, Ost-Friesen (East Friesian), Alt-Oldenburgs, Gelderlanders, Alt-Holsteiner, Selisians, etc?

Perhaps it’s just a handful of breeders in Europe that keep these strains alive and well?

[ne1]

i will try to speak only from the perspective of attempting to produce 1.50m+ jumpers.

your question appears aware that, for upper level performance, this type is less striven for than 20 years ago. the sport has changed and jumping courses, their technicality and the need for extreme adjustability at times, do not lend themselves to the heavier horses.

to generalise, france has a more blooded mare base than other european studbooks, while holstein has many heavier mares for which they are seeking stallions which might offset that without compromising the positive attributes these older style mares bring. stallions like quinar, by quidam, exemplify the effort to utilise great french blood, refine or modernise type, and not diminish jumping ability.

the dutch warmblood is a much more open book than these other two and the types to be found there vary more widely.

to the irish sporthorse… while they are superb and full of heart and enormous fun to ride, an observation was made in horse international magazine not too long ago that numerically they are just not showing up at the upper levels of jumping as frequently as they once did. the f1s from king of diamonds are fewer each year but what the article noted was that the breeding program in ireland somehow seems to have let the opportunity to concentrate and build on what superior genetics they had, slip away. not that there aren’t great horses up there… my good friend kevin babington only just retired the incredible carling king last year after his 4th placing individually at athens. but the article stated that quantatively, a recent international championship was greatly under-populated by irish horses compared to the size of their population, and relative to how much more frequent top irish jumpers used to be.

back to holstein, the answer to your question would be yes… there are many breeders happy to be breeding with older style mares, but as they are aware of the developing needs of the sport, more and more they are looking to use stallions on these mares which will give offspring able to win in today’s world. in doing so i have neither witnessed nor heard any lament of a loss of heavier bone nor soundness.

from your question of breeding specifically to preserve this older, heavier type, i’m not sure it would be a financially viable breeding objective in itself to produce for the purpose of the type alone, but perhaps i’m wrong. i wouldn’t do it.

[okggo]

[QUOTE=Fancy That;4584315]
Great to hear that. I know bone and substance will always be alive and well because of RIDs… but specifically the NON Irish, European WBs is what I was wondering about. (simply because I always see the modern type in competition and being bred for)

Anyone into Groningers, Ost-Friesen (East Friesian), Alt-Oldenburgs, Gelderlanders, Alt-Holsteiner, Selisians, etc?

Perhaps it’s just a handful of breeders in Europe that keep these strains alive and well?[/QUOTE]

I mentioned non-RIDs as well My “older style” keeper filly is a Belgian WB (no Irish). Performance, heart, good head + size

[cloudyandcallie]

I had the modern and leggy TB mare and I love that in the TBs.

But my WB is a Hessen, and altho 1/2 TB, looks like a WB, not like a TB.

I looked at some of those almost full TB WBs here in the States, but bought a TB mare since she was a TB.

I like the WBs like Stanhopes Diddicoy and the like.

Like someone said supra, if I want the TB look, I buy a TB.

My buying agents refers to the American WBs as “more refined.”:lol:
When I buy another WB it will look like a WB. And when I want another great ottb mare, she’ll be a Ky TB.

And I don’t breed. Never have. But I buy with $$$.

[pintopiaffe]

At the risk of flaming…

I think this is the draw and attraction of the purpose bred DraftX and FriesianX in the US. It is, in most cases, a way to get that size and substance, with some talent, that is beyond the budget of many Ammies.

Especially as the Boomers age, I think the popularity of heavy cob types and the pseudo-registries like Spanish Norman and Georgian Grande will fill that need in the lower price range for those without the highest levels of competition in mind.

[Fancy_That]

[QUOTE=ne1;4584415]
<snip>
your question appears aware that, for upper level performance, this type is less striven for than 20 years ago. the sport has changed and jumping courses, their technicality and the need for extreme adjustability at times, do not lend themselves to the heavier horses.
<snip>
from your question of breeding specifically to preserve this older, heavier type, i’m not sure it would be a financially viable breeding objective in itself to produce for the purpose of the type alone, but perhaps i’m wrong. i wouldn’t do it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that thoughtful response. Yes - I am fully aware that the old-type/heavy WB is NOT what would win at the Olympics I do understand the need for blood to modernize, refine, lighten etc.

I understand for a financial perspective, that if one is breeding for Upper Level Sport Horses…you would not purposefully breed these big, tanky, heavy WBs You may have a mare that is old/heavy type and breed her to a TB or heavy % TB warmblood.

I guess you answered my question that in Holstein there are breeders keeping the old type alive.

Since there is no economic drivers to keep the old type alive, I’d imagine, that everyone will just keep breeding for the modern, more refined type (which do better in the SJ, Dressage, 3-Day world)

I see the old type as a more “all around” horse. The roots are in Agricultural and Coaching as well as General Riding. Today, we have such specialized needs to produce top-level jumpers/dressage etc…I guess you can’t be breeding the oldies anymore?

I just have an affinity for them…and was curious if anyone else did. (and actually purposefully kept breeding old type WBs)

OKGGO - Oh, an old type Belgian WB mare? Cool!

[cloudyandcallie]

Where is Cumano now? The grey, “clunky” looking Holsteiner stud who outjumped them all? Big, heavy WBs can outjump the lighter weights.

[CDE_Driver]

I Love the old style WBs! My dream is to find an old style mare with 100% old Gelderlander blood to breed to a Gelders stallion. I drive and there are quite a few Gelderlander and Tuigpaard horses competing. There are also Tuigpaard horses that have 100% Gelderlander blood.

I do hope that they don’t die out!

[Fancy_That]

[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4584434]
At the risk of flaming…

I think this is the draw and attraction of the purpose bred DraftX and FriesianX in the US. It is, in most cases, a way to get that size and substance, with some talent, that is beyond the budget of many Ammies.

Especially as the Boomers age, I think the popularity of heavy cob types and the pseudo-registries like Spanish Norman and Georgian Grande will fill that need in the lower price range for those without the highest levels of competition in mind.[/QUOTE]

Agree!! You know what I wish we had in the US? The British Cobs!! They actually show them and breed them, etc. That is my favorite “type” of horse! Have you seen the Heavyweight Hunter types in the UK? Just LOVELY!!

I actually think the old type WBs would fit right in those classes. I think the reality is that many of those large cobs and heavy hunters have some draft in them.

We just don’t have a show scene for these types of horses here…

(oh and yes, of course you can go out and do foxhunting, lower level eventing and more of the “fun stuff” w/ these types here. That’s what I do, so I like the non-traditional types as they are just more please to me, personally)

[okggo]

[QUOTE=Fancy That;4584435]
Thank you for that thoughtful response. Yes - I am fully aware that the old-type/heavy WB is NOT what would win at the Olympics I do understand the need for blood to modernize, refine, lighten etc.

I understand for a financial perspective, that if one is breeding for Upper Level Sport Horses…you would not purposefully breed these big, tanky, heavy WBs You may have a mare that is old/heavy type and breed her to a TB or heavy % TB warmblood.

I guess you answered my question that in Holstein there are breeders keeping the old type alive.

Since there is no economic drivers to keep the old type alive, I’d imagine, that everyone will just keep breeding for the modern, more refined type (which do better in the SJ, Dressage, 3-Day world)

I see the old type as a more “all around” horse. The roots are in Agricultural and Coaching as well as General Riding. Today, we have such specialized needs to produce top-level jumpers/dressage etc…I guess you can’t be breeding the oldies anymore?

I just have an affinity for them…and was curious if anyone else did. (and actually purposefully kept breeding old type WBs)

OKGGO - Oh, an old type Belgian WB mare? Cool![/QUOTE]

Yes, and my dream date for her is Coolcorron Cool Diamond.

I’ve heard the stories of the downslide of the Irish horses - that the crosses were so popular they quit breeding the heavy types, and thus drove them near extinction. The unfortunate consequence is now preservation breeding (which is necessary) is pushing so much for outcross blood and lineage that the performance attributes seem to be going down the drain. Speaking from the US, I can think of a few breeders that breed for preservation AND performance, but it’s few and far between.

BUt I also think in the US we have American TB mares crossed on WB stallions of high TB blood and we end up with pretty light horses.

I’m trying to do the opposite - breed back for less blood.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I will preface this with the fact that I’ve never bred a horse, ever. I follow this forum, and try to keep up on the modern stallions of all types, but I am not a professional, or even slightly well-informed on the subject of actually breeding horses.

My horse is French, and is a mix between “heavy” and “modern”. His body is quite compact, but…bulky, for lack of a better word. He takes up a ton of leg, however, he is very adjustable. His neck is relatively short- not disproportionately so, but shorter than most, and quite thick. He has longish legs, but I would describe him as “older” in style.

PP- I think the problem with most draft Xs I’ve seen is their canter. I’ve literally never seen a good canter on any first generation draft X. I can imagine that the addition of some type of draft into a breeding program might benefit the size, and perhaps the goal of an older type, but I’ve seen many, many of these first gen. crosses in the local hunter rings that almost don’t have a true, 3-beat canter.

What I would find interesting is a discussion regarding purpose bred older types in regards to the revival of the hunter derby. I’ve seen quite a few successful derby horses with much more substance and bone than the regular horses winning in the working/conformation rings. Sure, they still possess many of the modern traits desirable for a modern hunter, but it’s interesting to see the prevalence of more bone in these horses. It should be interesting to see how breeders interested in producing purpose-bred derby horses will develop their programs, and whether the introduction of older types will benefit or detract from the functionality of such horses.

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

Ahhhhhhhhhh! Where to start, since some of the replies make me want tobang my head against a wall!:no:

The poster who said that if she wants a TB, she would buy one…Good, go buy one! Refined WBs should not look like TBs, they should look like refined WBs and they are not a type that is achieved by WillyNilly throwing in any old random TB! A normal TB bodytype (and we all know that there are exceptions) is NOT uphill, nor upright of neck and if you are looking at warmbloods that look like this then you simply aren’t looking at good warmbloods in the first place.

I have ONE TB mare in my breeding program and she is purpose bred to Oldenburg approved stallions to produce hunters. I have several refined types in my barn and most of them don’t have any TB in their pedigree. Refinement has been used by including Trakehner, French and Anglo Arab blood like the who Inschallah phenomenon.

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;4584442]
Where is Cumano now? The grey, “clunky” looking Holsteiner stud who outjumped them all? Big, heavy WBs can outjump the lighter weights.[/QUOTE]

They could outjump them in the day, but there aren’t a whole lot of pure height competitions anymore. The athlete today must be far more agile and quick of foot than those big guys ever had to be. Courses are more technical and those big guys would be DONE. The whole point in refinement was to keep that power base but add agility and grace.

[TooManyChickens]

A very good friend of mine (who doesn’t have a computer, otherwise I know she’d love to chime in here) stands a Hanoverian stallion that carries the fabulous Senator lines (the older German jumper lines). He’s 17.1, and has some incredible bone. He’s not a tank, but has much more substance than most WB’s I’ve seen. My eyes nearly popped out when I first saw him. She breeds him to TBs, and gets some fantastic sport horses. However, her main reason for breeding is mind and body: are they pleasant to work with, easy to train, and have personality… and, will their physical build allow them to preform. These guys cross over so many disciplines, and in my mind are able to because they have the mind and the build to do it. The WB mares that have been bred to this guy produce babies that are unbelievable jumpers. The heart is just incredible.

[cloudyandcallie]

I think the heavy old type Cumano did pretty well against the lighter types in the 2006 WEG.

[STF]

I too, still like the older and heavier type of WB! sigh
I guess, Im “out of style!”… but its ok!

[ne1]

cumano was absolutely wonderful as an athlete, and i wish i had a dozen of them in the barn. heck, one would do!

while jumpers will come in all shapes and sizes (and from all kinds of pedigrees) the tendancy is away from types such as his.

again, not only do you have to see the direction of the evolution of the sport, but you also cannot make a rule out of an exception. for his size and mass he was exceptionally agile.

i’ve said before that while there are other good resources to study online to find what types and pedigrees and %tb blood contents are being used to make upper level jumpers, you could do worse than taking a careful look through the holsteiner verband’s currently battery of approved stallions.

http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=32

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[QUOTE=Fancy That;4584449]
Agree!! You know what I wish we had in the US? The British Cobs!! They actually show them and breed them, etc. That is my favorite “type” of horse! Have you seen the Heavyweight Hunter types in the UK? Just LOVELY!!

I actually think the old type WBs would fit right in those classes. I think the reality is that many of those large cobs and heavy hunters have some draft in them.

We just don’t have a show scene for these types of horses here…
<SNIP>[/QUOTE]

The reality is that many of the top show cobs in Great Britain and Ireland ARE Irish Draught - or at least have a preponderance of ID blood fer instance:

http://www.kelstonstud.co.uk/whosaidcobs.html

A good cob and a good Irish Draught are really just different in scale - the type is pretty much the same.