Are the horses in the photos on Edward Gal’s web site oldstyle?
Definately not lighter horses.
[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4584434]
At the risk of flaming…
Especially as the Boomers age, I think the popularity of heavy cob types [/QUOTE]
This was my exact reason for keeping Panzyr, old style Hanoverian, intact. He has the most amazing, most trainable brain, yet still a lot of talent. I thought with all the adult ammy’s around he would be the perfect sire of sport horses for them.
But he didn’t pass his stallion test largely due to type. He scored a 205.5% and needed 210 to pass. He scored the lowest in the breed and type category. Well as a Hanoverian, we know it wasn’t his breed but his type. Especially his head. He really does have clunker!:):lol: But I don’t care! I’m just crazy about him.
So he’s a gelding now and my riding horse. He’s an absolute joy to ride even though he’s only 3. Just the best kindest horse. But I’m 47 and honestly don’t want to be on anything other than something like Panzyr.
Absolute perfect adult amateur horse!:yes: I love the old types and think it would be great for someone to focus on breeding the older types with the adult ammy in mind. I don’t think, however, that one could expect to be able to sell them for less. It costs buckets of money to get a quality foal on the ground whether it’s modern or old fashioned.
I also like the “older”, “heavier” style. That was probably one of the things which attracted me to the Friesian crosses – and the Friesian Sporthorses in particular, since I wanted the talent for sport in addition to the substance/mind. I have a warmblood broodie who is also the heavier, old style – she’s a Dutch mare, built like a tank, Roemer and Consul bloodlines, and due to have a Friesian Sporthorse foal in March – I can’t wait 
I don’t dislike the lighter horses – my first FEI horse was a Thoroughbred – but there is something about the substance of the older style horses which I really like.
I think that there is an unfortunate trend of breeding a bit too light in the guise of producing “modern.” My goal is to produce horses capable of competing internationally. Horses at that level tend to have some substance to them. They do not resemble the pretty horses that win on the line at breed shows. They don’t even resemble many of the horses winning in the FEI young horse classes. So, to an extent, I do aim to maintain some substance and power, but at the same time I want to produce horses that are light on their feet, sharp, and rideable. My ideal is more modern than the heavy,old-fashioned WBs common in the 80s, but perhaps with a bit more substance than the popular models of the past few years, and I want them to handle like an elite sports car.
[QUOTE=Oakstable;4584796]
Are the horses in the photos on Edward Gal’s web site oldstyle?
Definately not lighter horses.[/QUOTE]
I have not looked at his website recently but am familiar with his horses - many are by Gribaldi or Krack C. I don’t consider these strictly old style lines but they can produce some substance. That is my kind of old style.
My goal is to produce horses capable of competing internationally. Horses at that level tend to have some substance to them. They do not resemble the pretty horses that win on the line at breed shows. They don’t even resemble many of the horses winning in the FEI young horse classes.
Now I find that terribly interesting. I keep looking at the young horse stuff, and can’t quite wrap my mind around it. I realize that they have specifically bred, God Given gaits, and a certain trainability that translates into ‘born in the right frame…’ And I’m not saying that derogatorily AT ALL. But I’ve wondered where these extremely fancy young horses are in 10 years?
I have a Malachit grandson who turned three in August, and I cannot even IMAGINE him being ready for that kind of stuff next year. He may not even be backed. He looks like a 2yo still. Part of it may be his late birthday, part of it I know is my supremely late maturing lines… but still… Funny part is he’s not bred particularly heavy–Trak/TB/Arab, but is a short, stout, cobby type with a TON of bone. I’ll be happy if he matures 15h, as he’s built like a brick shthouse and will SO easily take up my leg.
The horses with more bone just take longer to mature.
But I’ve never actually heard any WB breeder who says they are breeding for the top-top levels say the YH stuff is not the same as the FEI stuff at maturity…
I also question why we are allowing the sport to change the breeds. I am not sure I necessarily agree with that. Is it really doing a service TO THE HORSE? Are the changes we’re meddling with to create the ultimate competition horse serving the actual creature? Or just human nature’s need for winning, speed, etc. ???
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A lot of horses jumping in the international 1.60m are no light-weights neither are a lot of the top dressage horses and they are also often tall. Of the 57 new stallions approved for Hanoverian breeding the average height is also taller. Many are 16.2 but 20 are between 16.3 and 17.1. Most of the tallest ones are jumpers. That just seems like a much higher average than prior years.
Or just human nature’s need for winning, speed, etc. ???
No, breeders need for selling what is asked for by riders who have money and human natures need for winning, speed, etc.
Okay…I am not a breeder and this may be a very ignorant statement so please feel free to comment: Aren’t the WB breeds successful because refinement, or bone, or whatever is required for success at a chosen sport, can improved upon at that time can be bred back into the registry.
Like an Arab can be approved to lighten a type and a heavier “draft type” horse can be approved to help keep or increase the bone.
So that being said, if breeders felt that their breeding stock was being “lightened” too much, a motivated person could find a RID, Draft, WB of another registry, etc… that could be approved and provide that bone.
On another note it does seem advantageous to keep some heavier bred bloodstock that aren’t necessarily light enough to excel, at say Grand Prix show jumping, but that could be bred to more “blood” to produce top quality sport horses.
Fun fact - Cielo’s XX/OX percentage is 46.5% (lots of french and anglo arab blood on the bottom).
I just bought a Dutch mare most would consider ‘old style’ and I have to say this is one of the things that attracted me to her. She also has the advantage of being very tall, so she doesn’t have the typical old-style issue of needing more leg. Her size and bone are wonderful to me and my first requirement in a stallion for her is not to refine her, though I’ve already been given advice to do so. I happen to think that size doesn’t always negate agility and I’d like to keep this mare, and others of her type, in my herd – right next to my more refined mares.
[QUOTE=Fancy That;4584449]
Agree!! You know what I wish we had in the US? The British Cobs!! They actually show them and breed them, etc. That is my favorite “type” of horse! Have you seen the Heavyweight Hunter types in the UK? Just LOVELY!!
I actually think the old type WBs would fit right in those classes. I think the reality is that many of those large cobs and heavy hunters have some draft in them.
We just don’t have a show scene for these types of horses here…
(oh and yes, of course you can go out and do foxhunting, lower level eventing and more of the “fun stuff” w/ these types here. That’s what I do, so I like the non-traditional types as they are just more please to me, personally)[/QUOTE]
While I’m a TB girl at heart, I wouldn’t turn down a good cob. There’s just something about them that I love. I mean, how yummy is something like this or this?
I also like the older style WBs- I used to work with a couple of D-line mares, and they were a blast!
Wow, I really like the looks of Cumano. If thats old style then that is what I love. Too bad about his fertility. Can anyone point me to some old style warmblood stallions that resemble his style?
THX
L
Cobs are notoriously hard to purpose breed. Many if not most British Show Cobs are Irish Draught or Irish Draught crosses that just didn’t grow tall enough. That said, there are lines of smaller Irish Draughts in the USA. If you hogged their manes you’d be hard pressed to differentiate them from a show cob in the UK.
ETA: didn’t finish reading before replying - looks like Adablurr covered this.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;4584442]
Where is Cumano now? The grey, “clunky” looking Holsteiner stud who outjumped them all? Big, heavy WBs can outjump the lighter weights.[/QUOTE]
Gee with his sire by Capitol I, and his dam by Landgraf, no wonder the big boy has hops!!!
Check him out as well as pics of Capitol & Landgraf here:
http://www.thehorsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/cumano/cumano.html
Do you all consider Capitol I and Landgraf “old style”? I love love love their type.
Would people today consider Landgraf too heavy? (Edited to add: I know he’s half TB…but his type is very ‘old style’ looking with all those curves, substance and how he’s put together)
I"m really glad to hear about breeders and riders appreciating the old style WB.
There was a comment about the WB registries being open so you can refine or add bone as needed. However, though you can refine with TB/Arab/French blood…you really can’t just “add draft” in for bone and substance. You negatively can affect talent (jumping, canter quality, etc)
Glad to see there are others interested in the older type WBs out there!
Couldn’t you add bone by finding an approved RID, Gelderlander, or something along those lines. Is there no way to increase bone in the event that the breed becomes too light?
[QUOTE=eventer80;4585393]
Couldn’t you add bone by finding an approved RID, Gelderlander, or something along those lines. Is there no way to increase bone in the event that the breed becomes too light?[/QUOTE]
Well finding a heavy, old-style Gelderlander was part of the reason I posted this thread Are they even out there in any numbers? Even the Gelderlander has evolved…
Agree that if the RIDs can be used, then there is definitely a source for bone and substance. But I don’t think RIDs have been used much in the breeding of the European WBS, have they?
I love this guy - Bridon Belfrey:
http://www.benmarfarm.com/irishdraughtstallionbridonbelfrey.html
YUM!
Interesting that the British Cobs are hard to “purpose-breed” They certainly are adorable!
Thanks for educating me Fancy!!! I have a friend with a heavy but long legged Gelderlander. I will find out where he came from.
I have an older style Hanoverian stallion. I just love his power and suspension. He is a sweet boy, and sires lovely amateur type brains with good movement and jump.
I think we need all kinds, as the people that love horses have different needs and tastes.
Love the cobs too
I have a few thoughts too.
First love the British Show Cobs and if they had these classes here I would make time to show. The colored cobs are usually Gypsy Cobs or crosses…kind of a show cob cheat. Clip off the feathers…lots and lots of feathers and you have a heavyweight show cob. http://www.horsequest.co.uk/COBSSHOW.HTM
http://www.theshowring.info/cobs.htm
Many of the great Heavyweight Show Cobs were Irish Draughts…Irish Draughts should not be monster tall…and it shows that the ID is a mover as the winners of the Show Cobs can MOVE.
Also if you are interested in crossing Irish Draught mares with warmbloods or TBs or other than IDs just ask a mare owner. I know I would lease a mare for such a cross.
I considered breeding heavy draft crosses to get my substantial sport horses. A few individuals are awesome but the crosses as a huge majority are very insufficient for sport horse use beyond all but the very lowest level. I looked at a lot of them…it is not the same as the breeds bred for sport. I came to the conclusion that it was a better choice to save my money for a warmblood or Irish Draught in the end.
I do think there are many breeders in all the registries who appreciate the big mares but they want them to breed to the light stallions and they don’t get supported to breed the big mares to get more big mares(they would need to approve some of the substantial stallions). This is the problem in Irish Draughts. If you find the real traditional type mare you will then find that her breeding record is all about the big mare taken to light stallions. MAYBE at the end of her fertility they will make a shot at reproducing the mare they have made their money off of.
Finally, I looked at breeding the heavier warmblood before I selected Irish Draughts but you would be fighting the tide in most organizations. They are selecting light stallions and deliberately NOT passing heavier stallions. YOU don’t get to be on the committee that decides where the whole organization is going with their inspection choices. You would be scored lower for breeding what you want. In Irish Draughts it is more my choice. PatO
