There is a family in Australia that are breeding and have imported Estonian “Tori” horses, I think they are called. They are so heavy, like old cart horses. Really nice though. And such a nice nature.
I like old style warmbloods, especially types like Cumano! A horse can be heavily built, buy extremely light on it’s feet, like Cumano. Some heavy horses are extremely heavy on their feet as well though 
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;4584564]
The poster who said that if she wants a TB, she would buy one…Good, go buy one! Refined WBs should not look like TBs, they should look like refined WBs and they are not a type that is achieved by WillyNilly throwing in any old random TB! [/QUOTE]
Go browse WBs for sale, dreamhorse, equine.com. I agree with you in the sense of “should” but what I SEE are WBs that look like TBs and priced like WBs. Hence my comment - if I want a TB, I’ll buy one (and for a lot cheaper mind you). I think the Euro “refined” is a bit different then the general trend of what you see for sale in the US - and I’ve been looking, so I’m basing my comments on a lot of sales ads.
Edited to add - I think YL hit my point exactly - they are bred to win on the line, pretty, dainty, elegant. TB with a splash of something extra. IMHO
Quoted “I think that there is an unfortunate trend of breeding a bit too light in the guise of producing “modern.” My goal is to produce horses capable of competing internationally. Horses at that level tend to have some substance to them. They do not resemble the pretty horses that win on the line at breed shows. They don’t even resemble many of the horses winning in the FEI young horse classes. So, to an extent, I do aim to maintain some substance and power, but at the same time I want to produce horses that are light on their feet, sharp, and rideable. My ideal is more modern than the heavy,old-fashioned WBs common in the 80s, but perhaps with a bit more substance than the popular models of the past few years, and I want them to handle like an elite sports car.”
I’m done with the days of pencil legs - personal choice If I could find a mare like Montana B I’d be in heaven.
I have a Gelders mare that I bred to a not so modern stallion some time ago (wasn’t exactly my choice, but it’s a long story). The resulting colt was of the “older style” flavor, super mover, well-put together, etc. No. 3 in the country as a foal…
Well, he was backed and went into training and did well. However, came selling time he was just a little too old-fashioned for most. I did sell him finally but the experience reinforced in me the fact that I do not want to produce old-fashioned horses. They’re much harder to sell than their more modern counterparts.
So, Edgar and ne1 are correct - it’s a financial decision.
Siegi,
Was the head what people were concerned about?
From observation, I think a horse with a pretty head and substance and movement works but for many people a less than attractive head can be a deal breaker.
Sally
[QUOTE=columbus;4585592]
I have a few thoughts too.
First love the British Show Cobs and if they had these classes here I would make time to show. The colored cobs are usually Gypsy Cobs or crosses…kind of a show cob cheat. Clip off the feathers…lots and lots of feathers and you have a heavyweight show cob. http://www.horsequest.co.uk/COBSSHOW.HTM
http://www.theshowring.info/cobs.htm
Many of the great Heavyweight Show Cobs were Irish Draughts…Irish Draughts should not be monster tall…and it shows that the ID is a mover as the winners of the Show Cobs can MOVE.
Also if you are interested in crossing Irish Draught mares with warmbloods or TBs or other than IDs just ask a mare owner. I know I would lease a mare for such a cross.
I considered breeding heavy draft crosses to get my substantial sport horses. A few individuals are awesome but the crosses as a huge majority are very insufficient for sport horse use beyond all but the very lowest level. I looked at a lot of them…it is not the same as the breeds bred for sport. I came to the conclusion that it was a better choice to save my money for a warmblood or Irish Draught in the end.
I do think there are many breeders in all the registries who appreciate the big mares but they want them to breed to the light stallions and they don’t get supported to breed the big mares to get more big mares(they would need to approve some of the substantial stallions). This is the problem in Irish Draughts. If you find the real traditional type mare you will then find that her breeding record is all about the big mare taken to light stallions. MAYBE at the end of her fertility they will make a shot at reproducing the mare they have made their money off of.
Finally, I looked at breeding the heavier warmblood before I selected Irish Draughts but you would be fighting the tide in most organizations. They are selecting light stallions and deliberately NOT passing heavier stallions. YOU don’t get to be on the committee that decides where the whole organization is going with their inspection choices. You would be scored lower for breeding what you want. In Irish Draughts it is more my choice. PatO[/QUOTE]
Not to go too off topic, but I loved reading up on those Cobs in the links above. Thank you.
You know - if we had that kind of market (show scene) there would be a place for these ammy-friendly all arounder types that are of the perfect size for many riders (15.1ish)
Seems that any horse stuck between 14.2 and 16 hands has “nowhere to go” here in the US, from a showing perspective.
It’s also nice that the Cobs are such easy keepers, family-friendly, and just good all around citizens.
Here in the US - there truly is no place for them, other than pleasure horses, lower level fun stuff (local shows, ll eventing maybe?) and of course breed shows.
I looked at every Cob on that For Sale site and was drooling on my keyboard at some of them.
As for the old-fashioned WBs, I do understand the registries aren’t approving super heavy/old style horses…and the market is not demanding it. I guess that’s why it’s “old fashioned” and not “today’s trend” 
I love looking at photos of the older-style WBs…thanks for sharing some of yours.
My most successful in hand horse ever could never be mistaken for a TB. She has substance and plenty of bone, yet is also a beauty. Ironically, the only criticism she has ever received from the judges is that her front legs could be longer. Yet she almost always scored in the 80s.
I breed for a horse that is beautiful, has good substance, exceptional gaits and a willing and trainable mind. I have had warmbloods since the early 80s and am not breeding for the body type that was typical then. In fact, in my experience, many of those older and heavier horses did not tend to ride so easily or hold up well over time. IME the slightly lighter and handier and more agile horses (who also have great brains) are easier to ride and their bodies are more forgiving of what the sport demands. Just my 2¢, FWIW.
Pics are of two of my girls. The first two are the very successful in hand mare and the next of her half sis who is far from looking like a TB, yet is developing into an elegant mare, though coming 4 and a tiny bit over 17H.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/Stanza_conf9-09.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/STanza_Mat_ctr1.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/Domi_Mat_trt1.jpg
My friend owned an older style Dutch gelding (and if anyone could tell me anything about his breeding I’d be super grateful) http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=231075
He was trained through grand prix dressage, but I understand he lacked the “fire” to be competitive internationally. One of the hardest horses I’ve ever ridden in my life, but man could he sit and loves to do one tempis. I met him in his early 20’s and he was/is lazy times ten. I guess I just want to ride something with more impulsion.
That said, he’s a 1984 model and although my friend no longer owns him, I heard a week ago he’s still carting ammies around. Rather impressive. I’d link a pic, but I’m on the wrong computer.
Well - Think it’s about time I chime in here.
I am breeding warmblood/draft crosses - with the ideal goal for 1/8 draft/warmblood/tb sport horses.
Two distinct lines - first line is my clyde/hackney horse line - My clyde/hackney crosses come from the top north american breeder of these crosses and our mares were specifically selected.
My other line is belgian/tb - from a mare that was specifically choosen for her size and movement.
My boys and I are all riding 1/2 drafts now - eventing and showing national dressage - younger son was reserve champion YR and my gelding is showing nationally level 2.
I currently have 3 1/4 drafts (my breeding line) - a 2 1/2 - soon to be 3) year old Stallion that is half Swedish WB out of the clyde/h line, his half sister weanling by Donavan (oldenburg) and a 3 yr old rio grande filly out of the b/tb line.
In March 2010 we hope to have two of our first ideal breeding on the ground - one out of each line that will be 1/8 draft/warmblood/tb - these are the horses that my boys will eventually be eventing and what will be our signature horses.
The future holds for crosses that will be produced from both lines and specifically look for mares that will breed well with our stallion.
Anyway, I am looking for size, attitude and movement, so far our breeding has been fantastic and I am very pleased with the results. My 3 yr old rio grande filly scored 86% in the CSHA 2006 foal championships.
You can see some pics - I don’t have my website up yet - here and the video link below:
www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm
We are walking our path because we choose to.
Would you classify Fuerst Romancier as substantial or modern legged, ? He seems pretty solid to me but I have an admittedly untrained eye.
he has around 23% tb.
heres a link to his video and shows his legs without wraps.
[QUOTE=leslie645;4586329]
Would you classify Fuerst Romancier as substantial or modern legged, ? He seems pretty solid to me but I have an admittedly untrained eye.
he has around 23% tb.
heres a link to his video and shows his legs without wraps.
I’m no expert but he looks fairly modern in that he’s quite leggy and not really heavy. However, he does have nice substance and I love that he’s kept his “Warmblood Tail”
Yes -I said it. I love the naturally thick tails that the Warmbloods have (compared to thin TB tails
Lovely mover…
Thanks Fancy. mayb e it is his height that makes that man riding him look tiny.
So my guess is there arent any Cumano type stallions to be had. 17 hh with huge bone.
I have a friend who had a Oldenburg named Waldsea~ He was in his 20’s at the time, (so I guess he was born in the early 80’s) and just huge, 17’1 and tons of bone and huge foot…and yes, I have wanted a replica of him ever since;) Just a huge athletic and sweet animal. I have yet to see one that resembles him until I saw Cumano.
I love “old fashioned” type horses, however in this market it is not what sells. Originally I thought I will breed what i like, but after trying to sell what I like and not get too many takers, I decided to breed what is a new “standard”.
I have an old-fashioned mare (she looks like a horse from '60), and I love her “tank” look, however at her inspection the judges told me she is too old fashioned. My mare is 1/2 tb 1/2 dutch, there is nothing tb about her though. She has had a couple of foals and the one I had no problem selling was the one that was “refined”. I kept one of her foals for myself because he is old-fashioned and that’s what I wanted to ride. Good thing I did, he is awesome mover despite his large size.
To sell and get approvals by todays standard I have to look to WB stallions that are refined to take some size off of her.
I have an amazing older style WB mare who is the sweetest mare on the planet as well as having fabulous movement for dressage, she can also jump. She is light in your hand and sensative to your aids in a very good way. A super horse to learn on, very tolerant. Have bred her several times but select a light and more refining stallion to breed her to. However, she does throw large and significant bone but really really fabulous offspring. I wouldn’t breed specifically for a older style but I love what she brings to the breeding with a more modern style stallion.
heres the Alt-oldenburger website for anyone having trouble finding it
http://ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=29&idart=64&m=&s=
Some pics…
[QUOTE=leslie645;4586548]
heres the Alt-oldenburger website for anyone having trouble finding it
http://ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=29&idart=64&m=&s=[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that link. Hadn’t seen it!
Check out some of these tanky old-fashioned WBs!! Not sure which these horses are, but they must be either Alt-Oldenburger or Ost-Friesen:
http://ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/upload/cloppenburg2008/9.jpg
http://ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/upload/cloppenburg2008/7.jpg
This one looks almost downright drafty (or draughty
http://ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/upload/cloppenburg2008/14.jpg
This stallion is also VERY heavy, old type (I can see how he would be related to the Friesian horse of today)
http://www.ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/upload/bilder/dublon2.jpg 87.5% original blood
While this one looks sort of like a “normal” type WB to me:
http://www.ostfriesen-alt-oldenburger.de/cms/upload/bilder/Hengst-Lancano.jpg
Interesting to look at the stallions on that site. What I see in the really heavy ones (that look almost drafty) is that they have short thick upright pasterns. Not generalizing all of them…but it’s something I did notice
Does anyone use Cleveland Bays to add substance?
[QUOTE=kookicat;4586740]
Does anyone use Cleveland Bays to add substance?[/QUOTE]
It sounds like the Continental European WB registries are moving AWAY from old styl/heavy type …and are not approving some horses of this type. They want more modern type and that’s what the market dictates.
So I’d imagine that a CB wouldn’t be approved or used as it seems that 'ligthening" the old style is what’s being done.
It’s also why in my OP, I said (“not Cleveland Bays and RIDs”)Those guys certainly have substance and bone!
Check out this lovely CB, Tregoyd William:
http://www.molalla.net/~williamsknollfarm/images/William/William_Elegance.jpg
It seems to me that some are missing the point. I have seen the heaviest of horses that are quick, and lightest of horses that are slow. We in the US have become so custom to breeding light to heavy to get medium that we have forgotten that we shouldn’t always be trying to get somewhere, but trying to maintain. I have made the mistake of suggesting a modern stallion for a thicker type mare, only to find out the mare is very blooded even though she is not modern. We must not confuse the two. I have seen a couple of examples of this confusion. You can breed a WB to a WB and not get a moose. It is done all the time in Europe. Quick is not always modern…
Tim
[QUOTE=Fancy That;4586809]
It sounds like the Continental European WB registries are moving AWAY from old styl/heavy type …and are not approving some horses of this type. They want more modern type and that’s what the market dictates.
So I’d imagine that a CB wouldn’t be approved or used as it seems that 'ligthening" the old style is what’s being done.
It’s also why in my OP, I said (“not Cleveland Bays and RIDs”)Those guys certainly have substance and bone!
Check out this lovely CB, Tregoyd William:
http://www.molalla.net/~williamsknollfarm/images/William/William_Elegance.jpg[/QUOTE]
He is lovely. Good point about the breed registries- I didn’t think of that.
Well, I’m putting my money where my mouth is, and breeding some heavier “Coloured Cobs.”
We’ll see if there really is a market when they hit the ground. I’m suspecting they won’t sell that well as foals and I’ll be hanging onto them until they’re started. But we’ll see.
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