Anyone purpose-breeding the old style, heavier WBs?

[siegi_b]

I think Home Again had it right… the older style warmbloods are typically harder to ride, are less reactive, and when they do react are harder to control. Given that the majority of riders in this country are women (and now women in their 50’s), breeders need to consider that when making breeding choices that will be for sale later on.

I get the impression from reading these posts that a lot of folks go strictly by looks… Looks are one thing, but then you also have to be able to ride the horse and it should be a comfortable ride. So don’t think that as your average 5’4" woman you’ll be happy with a heavy horse that has the corresponding heavier neck and heavy way of going. At that point the great temperament really doesn’t make a difference…

Just my opinion…

[Bravestrom]

That statement is way to general - I ride a 17.2hh 1/2 clyde and he is so light you wouldn’t believe it - lighter than any horse I have ever riden. Light contact, light off the legs. Every horse is different - I have seen some really light looking horses that are much heavier in the hand and leg than my guy.

We have another that responds to the most light of half halts.

[ne1]

this could be completely accurate, but this entire discussion is just like the ‘tb-for-jumpers’ one that frequently arises.

you may have a wonderfully exceptional horse, but breeders cannot breed for exceptions.

the entire premise is amiss, unless the breeding objective is type alone.

the orientation of our breeding program is rooted in a passion for our discipline. then in a study of what has worked. all the multitudinous commentary and hot air around individuals’ preferences or beliefs, if not grounded in a passion for exactly what it is you are breeding for, is waffle.

if your specific breeding purpose is to turn out some big old fashioned quadruped just because, well then i hope you have a life-plan and market for them so they don’t end up on the wrong end of some of the less scrupulous horse auctions. otherwise, it is of great assistance to the breeder to get chrystal clarity around exactly the purpose in inseminating a mare. whatever that purpose may be, do some study to get your head around what the global population of that ‘breeding ideal’ animal for you is, and take time looking deeply into how and the pedigrees by which it was produced. make sure you have seen a statistically relevant quantity of the highest quality ‘whatever-it-is’ horses that you’d like to breed before forming strong views, much less actually starting breeding!

it is a free country, and you’re all much more clever than i if you are able to foster these penchants for thoroughbreds, cleveland bays, heavy old fashioned types, paints or palominos and make a solid living from it. i neither could nor would want to. but again, if you have a profitable outlet for these animals, or intend to keep them all yourself, more credit to you.

i look at the issue from somewhat the reverse perspective… the objective - for us, upper level jumping horses - is first. then from that point all the work and study and investment is made to serve the objective. if what we learn from studying the sport is that green, three-legged tennessee walkers are beginning to jump international championships more frequently than darco babies or holsteiners or whatever else, then we’ll have to look into how to leverage that information. but this is quite different to a number of the personal preferences offered on here, which cite but a single horse or two to validate the opinions quoted.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Fancy That;4584219]
I understand many WB breeders want to “lighten up”, “modernize” and add more “blood” And I get why (for performance at the upper levels)

BUT - what happens if bone and substance are lost? We will always need the heavier, older type WB (think: Gelderlander, old-style Holstein & Oldenburg) if we need to ADD bone and substance, right? [/QUOTE]

Don’t confuse bone and substance with “heavy.” You can have bone and substance with a modern, leggy WB. I have several, as a matter of fact and none of them have “blood” anywhere close up.

[columbus]

Light AND substantial

I have only been in Irish Draughts for 10 years now so it is not a long time and I only had unapproved warmblood crosses when I did warmbloods. I have a fair amount of experience with heavy draft crosses all used for sport horse purposes. I DO agree that there is nothing fun about carrying a big horse around…even if you are big yourself…but I have not found so much correlation between size and lightness. Lightness is training and expectation. I expect a light horse to hand and leg and that is what they are. Ridden forward from the get go they are not lead sleds because they are substantial, it’s not allowed. The exception is the canter. I judge the canter for the differences between the breeds and crossbred I have worked with. I have ALWAYS needed a substantial horse with more than just bone…I need a heavyweight hunter type of all purpose sport horse. Where other big horses fell short was the canter. I simply was tired of carrying big horses around at the canter.

My Irish Draughts are as light and reactive as any horses I have ridden. They are quick footed and agile. Until I rode the Irish Draught…who carry ME at the canter…I just never found a group of horses that nearly uniformly fit my needs. So for me they all have halos…I know you all get tired of fawning about Irish Draughts but when I rode their canters that was it for me. I used to hate cantering…unbalanced…heavy…feeling unsafe…every training session was about improving those canters…and the Irish Draughts are BORN with such a lovely canter and then gallop. What fun. So with them I get the whole picture, balance and lightness at all gaits. Performance that reflects the work put into them.

I think one problem with the old style, heavy WBs is that all the improvement done in warmbloods…and it is amazing what they have created…wish it were more substantial…but that work went into improving WITH lightening. If they had chosen they could have kept the substance but as said before they KNEW their largest customer base was women, maybe specifically American women. They hired women riders for their best performance horses who made a small horse look big…men riding dressage now look under horsed on an increasing number of continental warmbloods. They petitified their warmbloods, who could be too heavy and difficult, for the average sized woman. They COULD have improved the gait, trainability and reactivity in the warmblood and kept the substance but they made different choices. So I for one looked elsewhere for the substance I need and actually prefer. As a personal challenge I could have worked in the warmblood world but it would have been against the flow. So I chose Irish Draughts. Believe me we have our own challenges. PatO

[columbus]

Forgot…

There are still big warmblood mares and geldings of excellent quality and they can be valued and held as premium by the breed. I find them all the time and lust for them. They are even better than the “old type” warmbloods of old. They are well worth what they cost and the last one I found was a chunk of change and worth it. She will spend her breeding life being bred to much lighter stallions instead of top quality but substantial stallions like herself…her offspring will be lighter and mares like her will be fewer and fewer until they are at last all gone. Poof. PatO

[okggo]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;4587442]
Don’t confuse bone and substance with “heavy.” You can have bone and substance with a modern, leggy WB. I have several, as a matter of fact and none of them have “blood” anywhere close up.[/QUOTE]

I think that is where I’m getting lost in the terms - I’m no way saying I want to breed useless cart-horse clunkers, lol. I want BONE!!! And I’m sorry, from the WBs I see for sale in the US most do not have it, they look like prettied up TBs.

So maybe when I say older style I mean bone and substance - period. I think I assumed that is what the older styles were. My gelding is 16h and very heavy build and light as a feather to ride. My weanling is going to be very tall and has ample bone and is a to die for mover. Both are MUCH heavier then a lot of the WBs I see listed for sale, or see out and about at the inspections/breed shows. I’m glad you pointed out the difference because I probably do need to clarify my point based on it.

Old style to me = bone + substance (they can be tall and have good length of leg!)
Modern (American Modern) = TB with a splash of WB and WB pricetag. And yes, I’m making a very broad generalization as there are MANY exceptions to this…but again in my searching sales sites, etc. I find a whole lotta pencil-leggers (o/o smaller American bred TBs, by “modern” light WBs with a lot of blood).

But it sounds like there is another ‘modern’ and that may actually be the category I’m calling old style at this point - the lovely athletic horses with BONE, like Baron Van Gogh as an example. He looks nothing like “most” WBs I see on the market.

[europa]

Most American breeders had to breed TB mares with WBs because that was the pervasive bloodstock here. Does anyone know currently how many WB mares are in the US? Mine are out of mares that came over on a ship from the first batches brought to the US in the 70s. I chose to not lighten them as they are not coarse to begin with. I have added some Absatz into one and got a very leggy more modern girl but I also have more of the traditional shorter legged Hanoverian style also. I will be interested to see if the more “MODERN” styles still achieve the same levels as the more traditional horses and the percentages at the top levels.

The hunter world seems to still prefer a bit of the older style with the hefty crests and the sweeping less knee action daisy cutter movement. I definately don’t like the movement on alot of the UBER MODERN types. ICK ICK…my own preference.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=okggo;4587579]
I think that is where I’m getting lost in the terms - I’m no way saying I want to breed useless cart-horse clunkers, lol. I want BONE!!! And I’m sorry, from the WBs I see for sale in the US most do not have it, they look like prettied up TBs…[/QUOTE]

I agree. They have done what we neglected to do - breed a TB type horse for “sport”. Ours have all been bred for racing <yes, I know that is a sport, but not what we are talking about on this forum> When I see modern Warmbloods, they are exactly like TBs, and they move like GOOD moving TBs. The modern Warmbloods lack the elasticity (rubber ball movement) I love. They are leg flingers, and often are not breaking the rule for trot - matching legs. Front and hind cannons are not parallel. This is progressing toward a Saddleseat type of gait (Walking horses), with exaggerated front end movement. Why are we breeding for movement so people in this country that just judge movement by the front legs will be impressed?

In the early 80’s, the new Breeding director for the Hanoverians was very “marketing” oriented, and changed the goals to make a prettier horse to export. The movement went downhill soon after, along with the loss of the “G-Line”. <I liked the old saying, “The uglier the head, the better the movement”. That is often true, although I don’t call older type heads ugly. I love them. They look like Warmbloods.

I love the older, heavier type Warmblood, but I am not really talking about heavy. It is the MOVEMENT of the older type I don’t want to lose. And the less reactiveness. My older type is not going to jump out of his skin at a statue near a dressage arena like Rembrandt did at the Atlanta Olympics. He IS however an easy ride, as what he lacks in super sensitivity, he makes up in desire to please. He “becomes” very sensitive to the aids quickly thru training, not from his “being”.

IMO, the huge movement to Friesians in this country is because many of the Warmbloods have become too sensitive and reactive. The 95+% amateur base in this country does not want to worry about getting hurt. They want to enjoy their horse without having their trainer ride and show them until they are old and arthritic.

As several of our German posters have stated, the pendulum will swing. I think that is very true, and is also done from a marketing standpoint. The Europeans can sell us what we don’t have. As soon as we get a lot of a type, they WILL change it.

We see the older type elasticity so lacking in modern stallions coming back in Quaterback. It remains to be seen though if he can breed that movement into the resulting cross with a modern mare.

[RyTimMick]

I know that this topic has been beaten up a few times, but I think it goes to show that a true WB is not bred from a TB motherline. The difference is not only noticed but has been depicted here on this post. It is also why posters with real WBs get so frustrated when anyone with a mare bred to a WB thinks they are producing the same thing. THEY ARE NOT. It is the throwing around of the term Warmblood that is confusing the well thought out questions in breeding. A-stamm and Q-stamms are not the same as a German stamm Holsteiner. That is why they have different names. Someone invariably will come on here and say I know of a half bred with lots of bone, but that fact is they won’t breed with it. Modern means lighter body and longer legs, blooded means quick and spirited, old type mean shorter legs and heavier body. You can breed modern with as much bone as you want. You just need to know how. Some breeders have done so, others have not even tried. If you want to bring back old type quickly, just breed back on the motherline, this is done in Holstein all the time to preserve the power and substance. If you start with a TB you have nowhere to go but lighter, and now you see the problem.

Tim

[CDE_Driver]

First let me say that I am so excited that I may be able to lease a mare that is about 87% Gelderlander that I would breed to a Gelders stallion. I am producing a foal for myself.

My discipline is combined driving. The two horses I have now are what I think is considered “old style”

This one is 16.2, wears a size 4 shoe and is very forward and a little on the sensitive side. He is by Feiner Graff out of a Lungau mare.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/IMG_1594.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/ApolloShadyOaks2007Dressage.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/ApolloShadyOaks2009.jpg

This one is a Saschen. He is 15.3 and also wears a size 4 shoe. He is so bold and fearless and forward!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Harras/HarrasShadyOaks2006.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Harras/HarrasConesShadyOaks2006.jpg

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;4587809]
I know that this topic has been beaten up a few times, but I think it goes to show that true a WB is not bred from a TB motherline. The difference is not only noticed but has been depicted here on this post. It is also why posters with real WB get so frustrated when anyone with a mare bred to a WB thinks they are producing the same thing. THEY ARE NOT. It is the throwing around of the term Warmblood that is confusing the well thought out questions in breeding. A-stamm and Q-stamms are not the same as a German stamm Holsteiner. That is why they have different names. Someone invariably will come on here and say I know of a half bred with lots of bone, but that fact is they won’t breed with it. Modern means lighter body and longer legs, blooded means quick and spirited, old type mean shorter legs and heavier body. You can breed modern with as much bone as you want. You just need to know how. Some breeders have done so, others have not even tried. If you want to bring back old type quickly, just breed back on the motherline, this is done in Holstein all the time to preserve the power and substance. If you start with a TB you have nowhere to go but lighter, and now you see the problem.

Tim[/QUOTE]

Very well said, thank you!

[leslie645]

Todays warmbloods are too much horse(hot) and too costly for most people. So they are using *average draft crosses to fill that hole. You can buy a nice substantual Draft/X for 1500. And big butted American women like me prefer a bigger horse. ( and yes…there a millions of other big butted American riders just like me;))
I think the draft cross market is filling the need for big boned warmbloods. I can buy a draftX for around 1500. I can get a Tb for free. Would I prefer to have a old style warmblood? …YES, if I could find one moderately priced ( I am not a upper level rider so I am not going to pay upper level prices for any horse…I feel like I am not alone and there are millions of back yard riders just like me.)

I think the Moderns fill a niche~ they do excel at upper level sport like no other. But there arent that many upper level riders.

Where are these ‘modern but with substance’ warmbloods? I want one.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;4587809]
I know that this topic has been beaten up a few times, but I think it goes to show that a true WB is not bred from a TB motherline. The difference is not only noticed but has been depicted here on this post. It is also why posters with real WBs get so frustrated when anyone with a mare bred to a WB thinks they are producing the same thing. THEY ARE NOT. It is the throwing around of the term Warmblood that is confusing the well thought out questions in breeding. A-stamm and Q-stamms are not the same as a German stamm Holsteiner. That is why they have different names. Someone invariably will come on here and say I know of a half bred with lots of bone, but that fact is they won’t breed with it. Modern means lighter body and longer legs, blooded means quick and spirited, old type mean shorter legs and heavier body. You can breed modern with as much bone as you want. You just need to know how. Some breeders have done so, others have not even tried. If you want to bring back old type quickly, just breed back on the motherline, this is done in Holstein all the time to preserve the power and substance. If you start with a TB you have nowhere to go but lighter, and now you see the problem.

Tim[/QUOTE]

Not true

[Fancy_That]

[QUOTE=europa;4587678]
<snip>
The hunter world seems to still prefer a bit of the older style with the hefty crests and the sweeping less knee action daisy cutter movement. I definately don’t like the movement on alot of the UBER MODERN types. ICK ICK…my own preference.[/QUOTE]

You’re not kidding. Look at this gorgeous Holsteiner by Carolus I (Capitol I x Lacq) out of Halanda (Calando I by CDLB x a Landgraf daughter)

Here’s the only pic I could find of him, “Independence”
http://au.zinio.com/page/?issue=416081820&pg=36

Now THAT is my style of warmblood! Noone could accuse this boy of being anywhere NEAR TB-looking I think you definitely will see the curvier, more substantial type WBs in the Hunter Ring versus the Jumper ring.

And talk about old-style with HOPS - Carolus I by Capitol I?!! Love that line.

Interesting discussion about what Modern versus Old Style or Traditional means. Semantics CAN confuse everyone here.

[Fancy_That]

Lovely WBs!

[QUOTE=CDE Driver;4588038]
First let me say that I am so excited that I may be able to lease a mare that is about 87% Gelderlander that I would breed to a Gelders stallion. I am producing a foal for myself.

My discipline is combined driving. The two horses I have now are what I think is considered “old style”

This one is 16.2, wears a size 4 shoe and is very forward and a little on the sensitive side. He is by Feiner Graff out of a Lungau mare.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/IMG_1594.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/ApolloShadyOaks2007Dressage.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/ApolloShadyOaks2009.jpg

This one is a Saschen. He is 15.3 and also wears a size 4 shoe. He is so bold and fearless and forward!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Harras/HarrasShadyOaks2006.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Harras/HarrasConesShadyOaks2006.jpg[/QUOTE]

I’m in love with your Saschen!!! OMG, you just don’t seem them built like that these days… But he’s obviously not clunky or ‘too heavy’, as he is fantastic at what he does, right?! Wow.

Good for you for breedign a high percentage Gelder mare to a Gelder stallion. Maybe in the CDE world, they are breeding for the type like yours more often? Your big boy is gorgeous too, but my jaw dropped when I saw “blackie”

[ne1]

indeed…

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4588550]
Not true[/QUOTE]

then please, gap, let us know your findings with what you have bred…?

perhaps we all need more grey arab ponies in our breeding programs? :winkgrin:

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=europa;4587678]
The hunter world seems to still prefer a bit of the older style with the hefty crests and the sweeping less knee action daisy cutter movement. I definately don’t like the movement on alot of the UBER MODERN types. ICK ICK…my own preference.[/QUOTE]

Uhmmmm, no. The movement, yes. But we hunter breeders are definately not breeding “older style with hefty crests.” I don’t know where you’re coming up with that.

Do you understand why that daisy cutter movement is desireable?

[Allyn_M]

Having read most of this thread and seeing that there are many different views on old and heavy versus new and modern , I believe perhaps this is more of a gray issue versus just black and white .
Because I assume that most of the breeders here are sport horse breeders and are breeding for the Olympic disciplines; in other words this horse is going to have to perform so that should be the first criteria . Because his discipline may take years to learn , legs with enough strength and bone to stand the consistent pounding and muscle structure to support them are important. The machine that creates the power that propels the uphill movement in dressage and the power in showjumping in critical. That is a powerful rear end is very important . These are the blessings that the warmbloods give to this type of breeding . I mean the ones that come from generations of jumping horses that have been carefully bred for this purpose.
That does not mean the other horses cannot do well in one of these disciplines but it does not happen on a regular basis. About "leggy " as a criteria you must remember that if you are breeding for showjumping the longer the leg the more effort must be made on the horses part to clear a big jump. Not all horses are that motivated.
Beauty in the eyes of Americans is very important and we certainly keep that in mind as we sell our horses , so buyers need to be attracted to them ,but it is not the most important thing. We breed performance horses so we use the above criteria .
Some of the mares produce more modern looking horses and they usually are purchased as hunters ,but that does not mean they cannot jump.
Finally you can try mightily to control things ,but unfortunately when those swimmers start to head in the right direction the fastest one might be carrying the wrong set of genes .
In answer to the OP’s question we try to breed the most rideable and talented horse we can produce with the best bone and joints and the most powerful rear end . Whether it is modern or heavy really doesn’t come into play.

[CDE_Driver]

Very well said Allyn.

Beauty is as beauty does. I guess I love the old style horses because they “can do” but won’t necessarily win the beauty contest. I don’t care about they beauty contest, I want a horse that can do what I want to do. The old style horses I know aren’t luggy, heavy beasts, they are the war horses that will go to the ends of the earth for you.

Maybe too much New Years emotion…but that is the way I think of it.