Anyone researching Sabino gene in warmbloods?

[quietann]

[QUOTE=JB;5480366]
birdcatcher spots are white spots that appear randomly, bigger or smaller, tend to come and go but can be permanent, mostly on red-based colors but have appeared on black-based colors.
/64/43861764Ntejdb_fs.jpg[/QUOTE]

Going OT here, but is there a black form of birdcatcher spots? My mare (a palomino) has several dark, nearly black spots, about the same size as birdcatcher spots. They aren’t scars; they showed up when she shed out her first foal coat, according to her breeders.

[JB]

Yep, they are called Bend Or spots, aka grease spots

My black WB has one - it doesn’t fade LOL

[colorfan]

black ‘birdcatcher spots’ are called ‘bend or’ spots, they are named after a TB of the same name who had quite a few.

[Oakstable]

My mare has at least two crosses to Bend Or (1877) and one to Master Magpie (1905).
Is there a dedicated forum to discuss color in sporthorses?

And if I wanted to have her color genetics tested, what do I do?

[Donella]

It is hard to understand the sabino coloring stuff. One of my mares looks sabino…huge white stockings over knees, big blaze, whites in eyes, but she throws either super wild coloring or very plain, solid coloring. She was bred to two different dark bay stallions (not homozygous for black) and had two solid chestnut fillies. Then she was bred to Quaterback and both colts came out with high stockings, up to stifles, over knees. Both have belly splashes and blazes and both have flaxen mane and tails. Interestingly, it seems like the chestnut QB offspring usually have alot of bling, while the dark foals are more conservatively marked. Is there something to that?

[ShannonD]

[QUOTE=Donella;5480650]
Interestingly, it seems like the chestnut QB offspring usually have alot of bling, while the dark foals are more conservatively marked. Is there something to that?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it’s the same thing. Black suppresses white expression. It’s that way most of the time!

There can be other white suppression genes going on even on an ee horse, though. Some chestnuts might just not have any form of sabino or splash, too, but sometimes you’ll see nearly solid chestnuts with ermines and jagged, low socks as well.

This chestnut gelding has been developing birdcatcher spots over the years, and only has one low sock. You can see the ermines. His bay/brown siblings/relatives have ZERO white. There are probably other white suppression genes going on in that family aside from just the extension in his relatives, and/or just the pure lack of sabino in the (Chilean) breeding stock.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/73965_10150122747938662_643033661_7687772_4578301_n.jpg

And then you have THESE guys…Red based and lots of white. Granted it’s splash, but still He’s by Ijsselmer Ikepono out of a TB mare.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/24816_432888968661_643033661_5411863_6402409_n.jpg

[JB]

@Oakstable;5480556

My mare has at least two crosses to Bend Or (1877) and one to Master Magpie (1905).
Is there a dedicated forum to discuss color in sporthorses?

Why just sporthorses? LOL All kidding aside, there are some folks right here who are incredibly knowledgeable about color.

That said, there are a few color-specific forums, such as http://www.equine-color.info/forum?f=1 But truly, between me, ShannonD, RiddleMethis, coloredcowhorse, camohn, and quite a few others, there probably isn’t anything that can’t be answered or, due to a few of those who have geneticist friends in this field, found out

But if you just want to go browsing through topics, that’s one place to go.

And if I wanted to have her color genetics tested, what do I do?

It somewhat depends on what you want tested. Pet DNA Services of Arizona is the ONLY place which tests for brown, and for horses that’s the only test they do. Any other place which checks the Agouti status will show A or a, and will not differentiate between A (bay) and At (brown).

UC Davis, Animal Genetics, and VetGen are 3 places which test everything else that is testable, at least among them.

[quote=Donella;5480650]It is hard to understand the sabino coloring stuff. One of my mares looks sabino…huge white stockings over knees, big blaze, whites in eyes, but she throws either super wild coloring or very plain, solid coloring.
[/quote]

She may indeed be Sabino, but she’s probably also Splash and/or Dominant White

She was bred to two different dark bay stallions (not homozygous for black) and had two solid chestnut fillies.

Which means she is either Ee or ee (didn’t catch whether she’s chestnut herself), and the stallions were Ee (black-based, but heterozygous for black).

Then she was bred to Quaterback and both colts came out with high stockings, up to stifles, over knees. Both have belly splashes and blazes and both have flaxen mane and tails.

The fun thing with the Overo patterns - sabino, splash, frame, dw - is there are zero guarantees of color production even if the genetics are there. Exceptions are homozygous forms of sabino and splash, where appreciable color is almost guaranteed, at least with SB1 and Splash.

Interestingly, it seems like the chestnut QB offspring usually have alot of bling, while the dark foals are more conservatively marked. Is there something to that?

As said, it is a known fact that black E (meaning all black-based colors, black, brown, buckskin, bay, etc) suppress the presentation of white Not to say there aren’t loudly marked black-based horses, there are, but all in all, it’s immensely more common to see the loud(er) red-based horses.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;5480313]
Well, my small sample is definately not big enough to be scientific, but I have two homo black mares, and have bred both to pintos (heterozygous, splash tobiano), and have only gotten solid black - one tiny (TINY) star out of four foals. Not a huge sample, but none-the-less, supports the theory that black suppresses white patterns. Same two stallions bred to my chestnut mare (who I suspect to carry Sabino, but haven’t tested her) have resulted in three tobiano foals. So, if we can get enough people to add data to our small sample, we might actually get a large enough sample to mean something:lol:[/QUOTE]

If the stallions were hetero they may simply have not passed the pattern genetics so the HZ black of the mare would have had no effect at all (can’t change the genes in those little swimmers…if they aren’t there they aren’t there). The only way you could say correctly that the HZ black mares suppressed expression would be if the foals were tested to have tobiano genetics without being expressed (and even then it could have been a case of “slipped” tobiano…see UC Davis site regarding this).

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Donella;5480650]
It is hard to understand the sabino coloring stuff. One of my mares looks sabino…huge white stockings over knees, big blaze, whites in eyes, but she throws either super wild coloring or very plain, solid coloring. She was bred to two different dark bay stallions (not homozygous for black) and had two solid chestnut fillies. Then she was bred to Quaterback and both colts came out with high stockings, up to stifles, over knees. Both have belly splashes and blazes and both have flaxen mane and tails. Interestingly, it seems like the chestnut QB offspring usually have alot of bling, while the dark foals are more conservatively marked. Is there something to that?[/QUOTE]

Depends on whether the white markings are sabino or splash white or a combo. There is some evidence/thought that black genetics (“Ee” or “EE”) suppresses the expression of white. I haven’t found that to be the case in my Paints as I have had the same production of solid/colored foals from both black and red based mares when bred to black or red based stallions. Of course I am also dealing mostly with tobiano although there are several with splash white genes in the mix and several with obvious sabino.

Since both sabino and splash produce face markings and leg markings it is hard to say what gene one is dealing with unless you can actually see the markings. There are differences but many people don’t know them and assume that all leg and face and belly markings are sabino when that may well NOT be the case. Both sabino and splash can produce minimal markings as well as wildly loud ones. And can exist in combination as well.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Oakstable;5480556]
My mare has at least two crosses to Bend Or (1877) and one to Master Magpie (1905).
Is there a dedicated forum to discuss color in sporthorses?

And if I wanted to have her color genetics tested, what do I do?[/QUOTE]

You may not need to have her tested if you have info on sire/dam/grandsires/dams or depending on her color (if she’s chestnut there’s no need to test…she’s “ee”…unless you want to know if she carries one or two of the agouti gene forms to know what she could produce). What did you have in mind for testing?

[clint]

[QUOTE=ShannonD;5480202]
Ahhh, but see your mare may be Ee and could have passed her e, so the colt might be Ee too! :winkgrin: [/QUOTE]

This mare is out of a chestnut mare, by a bay stallion. I don’t think she can be Ee?

[JB]

clint, your mare is bay, which means she’s black-based, carrying at least one E.

She’s out of a chestnut mare, and that mare ONLY had e to give.

Therefore, your mare can’t be anything BUT Ee

[Home_Again_Farm]

@ShannonD;5480202

How cool! I’ve seen a couple non chestnuts with birdcatchers, and when they have them they really have them it seems. Neat to see that one has actually been tested a well.

I wish she had not suddenly sprouted them. It looks like she’s been standing under a tree full of birds. :winkgrin: :eek: :lol:

[Donella]

Since both sabino and splash produce face markings and leg markings it is hard to say what gene one is dealing with unless you can actually see the markings. There are differences but many people don’t know them and assume that all leg and face and belly markings are sabino when that may well NOT be the case. Both sabino and splash can produce minimal markings as well as wildly loud ones. And can exist in combination as well.

Can you tell if mine are splash or sabino??

Here are some pics of the foals, you can see markings:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0082_edited-1.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0262_edited-1.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0043_edited-1-2.jpg

Second foal:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0126_edited-1-1.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0039_edited-1.jpg

I don’t know if you can see it but on his solid leg he has a white splash on the hock. The belly splashes are similiar size and shape.

And here is the dam:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0127_edited-1.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0044_edited-1.jpg

[JB]

The dam is most definitely Splash, but Sabino could be hiding in there. It may be the reason for the jaggedness of that hind ankle, but the front white are definitely from Splash. Her face white may be both as well.

The foals are Splash at least, Sabino a good possibility (look at the jaggedness of the RH of both foals). I’m not sure dominant white isn’t in the picture though, but that’s a tough call.

[Oakstable]

I specified sporthorse breeds as I am interested in knowing of stallions I might be able to use with my warmblood mares, and specifically with my Itaxerxes mare.

http://www.nornenhof.de/itaxerxes2/index22.htm

She has the same coloring as her sire, but with one solid leg.

Her dam line is related to Sedar, another loudly colored Trakehner stallion.

http://www.ahornhof.com/sedar.html

While getting color is not the most important goal, it would be fun if I could get it, at least once. I’ve always wanted a flaxen chestnut.

Itaxerxes had one approved son, Kir Royal, with the same coloring but with a bay coat. The color genes seem to be recessive.

[JB]

ah, gotcha on why sporthorses specifically I doubt there is anything of that nature though. I do know on the Horsegrooming Supplies Breeding forum, there have been quite a few discussions on color in WBs and TBs.

[ShannonD]

[QUOTE=Oakstable;5481422]

While getting color is not the most important goal, it would be fun if I could get it, at least once. I’ve always wanted a flaxen chestnut.[/QUOTE]

The only things you could (or rather, should waste your money on ;)) possibly test your mare for are SB1 and Agouti. Agouti will tell you if she will produce bays or browns by black stallions, or if she can only produce black. I am almost positive there is no test for flaxen, which is a recessive trait if I remember right. Both parents must have one gene to pass on, and the foal must be homozygous for it to show. Your best bet for a flaxen chestnut would be to breed to a flaxen-- and then it’s all up in the air whether or not she is capable of throwing a flaxen foal. Aram is a stallion that comes to mind, albeit not Trakehner!

[JB]

Nope, no test yet for flaxen, but I seem to recall someone is looking at it.

[coloredcowhorse]

Both foals are definitely splash with possible sabino mixed (the white running up the front of the hind leg toward the stifle is a clue although the smoother edges speak splash). The L hind on the first foal is interesting…it runs upward like sabino but then cuts off level as splash does. First foal also has chin white which can be either splash or sabino. Second foal also has some running upward of the white on the leg (RH) so could also be both splash and sabino. I do see much more typical splash markings than sabino in both.

Mare is splash white (level top to tall front stockings) and may also be sabino…blaze is more sabino type than splash (splash blazes tend to be wide, smooth edged, have a flat or near flat upper edge and to widen down over the lower muzzle while sabino can vary wildly from a few hairs wide to bald face but usually has lacey or rough edges, spots within the blaze and to have pointy tops rather than the flat top of the splash).

She sure makes nice foals.