Oh, they will make sure he’s good to go come February 14th. I’m sure he’s jumped mares off and on since he got there. I went and saw him in early December and asked Richard, the stallion manager, if he had been test bred yet. Richard grinned and told me that because of AP’s particular insurance regulations they are not allowed to test breed him. So we won’t know if hes worth a dime in the shed until about March 1st
[QUOTE=QHJockee;8476168]
Richard grinned and told me that because of AP’s particular insurance regulations they are not allowed to test breed him.[/QUOTE]
I am SO glad you said this. I had the privilege of caring for a couple “big” horses in the mid-00s and I was told by their connections that we could not test breed them or even check semen per their insurance policies. The topic had come up once or twice on this forum regarding other “big” horses. When I chimed in with my experience, the “experts” on this forum jumped all over me and said I didn’t know what I was talking about. I was starting to think I was losing my mind. :lol:
Having been in emergency dispatch, I can completely relate to otherwise inappropriate but normal for the profession dinner conversations. LOL
Can anyone say Why you would not test breed a freshman stallion ahead of start of season in order to take your time with his first live covers? Insuranace-wise it seems the less risky way to assure stud safety? Or is this insurance for the money invested only - like if the jump mare clobbers him, or if he shoots blanks ??
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8476946]
Can anyone say Why you would not test breed a freshman stallion ahead of start of season in order to take your time with his first live covers? Insuranace-wise it seems the less risky way to assure stud safety? Or is this insurance for the money invested only - like if the jump mare clobbers him, or if he shoots blanks ??[/QUOTE]
The policies are on the stallion’s fertility and ability to perform at stud. I don’t believe average stud farms or racehorse owners take out these types of polices unless the horse has astronomical value (major G1 winners, etc).
I imagine the no testing rule is to prevent fraud and cases where the folks taking out a policy know the stallion can’t perform his duties, but I could be totally wrong about that. I was never privy to the details on why. But I’m sure the insurance companies don’t exactly want to pay out on these claims, like with Cigar.
Betonbill are you talking about the Kenny Mayne ESPN piece? Where he showed AP pictures of mares on a notepad?
I took that as very tongue in cheek but it keeps AP in front of a mainstream audience.
Plumcreek about abortions in mares, it’s nothing like what a woman goes through. Plus it’s done very early in the pregnancy. It’s just like when the vet cuts an egg when a mare is carrying more than one. I’ve assisted with quite a few of those procedures and it’s just like any other palpation except an egg gets pinched.
spotted draft, yup, been there and sweated through twin pinching.
I guess the known disposition of a regular jump mare, even one who can get pregnant, would be the smart choice.
The insurance thing mystifies me. Policies are well in place, undoubtably. Time to train the stud prospect with care and patience to be ready for opening day.
Cigar did no test mares either; he was declared infertile after covering 30+ mares in his first season. After that the insurance co paid out.
[QUOTE=2tempe;8477021]
Cigar did no test mares either; he was declared infertile after covering 30+ mares in his first season. After that the insurance co paid out.[/QUOTE]
Right. I’m just saying I’m sure they don’t want to pay out on the millions on these policies, like they had to with him. They definitely don’t want there to be a chance someone could be taking them for a ride.
I would be really curious to know more about the policies. I should have asked at the time, because it’s pretty unlikely I’ll be involved with that caliber of horse ever again. 
[QUOTE=2tempe;8477021]
Cigar did no test mares either; he was declared infertile after covering 30+ mares in his first season. After that the insurance co paid out.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if they would pay out if he got one of those pregnant. What kind of breeding operation does not blow him out at the beginning of the season and not test for counts and motility through the season.
Their are things you can do to improve quality on some studs, why would you not want to and have the highest conseption rate?
[QUOTE=Jim R;8477533]
I wonder if they would pay out if he got one of those pregnant. What kind of breeding operation does not blow him out at the beginning of the season and not test for counts and motility through the season.
Their are things you can do to improve quality on some studs, why would you not want to and have the highest conseption rate?[/QUOTE]
IIRC , the definition of “infertile” is not being able to impregnate a percentage of mares. Meaning if only a handful out of a 100 mares bred became pregnant, the stallion could still be considered infertile, despite the fact that he successfully impregnated a few.
There are MILLIONS of dollars at stake with these policies and the stud farms are consummate professionals. No one is paying out on these claims because the stud farm didn’t try everything. They know what they are doing. Thoroughbred stallions boast some of the highest conception rates of any domesticated horse breed in the world, despite the fact that thoroughbred live cover is greatly departed from how stallions would breed naturally in the wild.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8477533]
What kind of breeding operation does not blow him out at the beginning of the season and not test for counts and motility through the season.
Their are things you can do to improve quality on some studs, why would you not want to and have the highest conseption rate?[/QUOTE]
I suspect the difference is fertility upon being retired to stud vs ensuring he is in peak breeding form prior to every subsequent breeding season.
Once he is proven to be a fertile stallion, then I would expect more of doing everything possible to ensure the highest conception rates possible every season.
Never read a race horse contract. Is there a live foal guaruntee?
[QUOTE=Jim R;8477870]
Never read a race horse contract. Is there a live foal garauntee?[/QUOTE]
As with any other breeding contract, the terms and conditions may vary. Obviously, it is assumed that the mare gets in foal to the stallion, and there would be language to that effect. As far as live a foal? “stands and nurses” is customary in the industry. However, sometimes no guarantees apply- Northern Dancer comes to mind.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8477870]
Never read a race horse contract. Is there a live foal garauntee?[/QUOTE]
Most Thoroughbred contracts in KY offer a live foal guarantee (meaning that if the mare does not get in foal or does not deliver a live foal, no money is due–not that you have to breed the mare back.)
“No guarantee” seasons can often be had at a reduced rate to regular stallions. If a stallion is really really popular, shareholders sometimes sell their seasons with no guarantee. Buyers usually then insure the season independently.
Don’t you think part of the test breeding is that someone gets a free breeding or a a foal the season before?
I don’t understand the not testing semen for motility and density before insuring though. That doesn’t even make sense to me.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8478166]
I don’t understand the not testing semen for motility and density before insuring though. That doesn’t even make sense to me.[/QUOTE]
The insurance is can he or can’t he impregnate a certain % of covered mares. No testing allowed until it is proven that he can or can’t. Having never seen the insurance policy on a high dollar TB stallion, I don’t know but I suspect that once the stallion has proven he can impregnate the requisite % of mares to be considered fertile, then any subsequent loss of fertility might be covered under loss of use rather than fertile or not. (I have no idea for this high dollar guys what would be covered under loss of use once they are a breeding stallion.)
I wouldn’t be surprised if these type of policies are a Lloyds of London custom high dollar policy written for the specific stallion.
Got it the insurance is not about keeping fertility, it is as to wether he has it or not.
I would think this type of policy will eventually phase itself out.
Surely they are covered by a loss of use once deemed fertile.
