Approving a TB mare and then breeding her to an approved tb stallion.... is that the only way to purpose breed tb x tb, and is it even possible? Which registries please?

[Warmblood1]

Most registries have a jumping direction versus strictly hunters, or are largely focused on producing jumpers such as BWP or Holsteiner versus KWPN which does have more specific breeding directions such as dressage, hunters, jumpers, harness and Gelders. KWPN NA does not have any full TBs with approval to my knowledge however. Regardless of registry, if one is trying produce a horse with an intended purpose, it’s best to use breeding stock proven in that direction, especially if trying to produce a stallion prospect. The options for full TBs standing with the major registries is incredibly small, is geared more towards jumpers, has fewer that can consistently produce nice hunters. This was my point a few posts ago - this seems like a backwards endeavor if the goal is to produce a stallion geared towards the hunters breeding direction with WB approval.

As far as pedigree, the TB stallion OP has recently posted has very limited horses proven in the jumpers breeding direction on the dam’s side which is relevant to registries when approving stallions (when going the route of approval via inspection/testing versus a horse proven in competition). The stallion also doesn’t exactly have the movement of most competitive hunters IMO. The stallion is largely unproven. I think OP would be much better served buying a horse on the ground versus the current route.

ETA : probably worth saying I’ve come in and out of this convo quite a bit so apologies if I’m repeating myself.

[beowulf]

That was my point for sure - even Euro WB jumping directions generally don’t take H/J success into account (ex. WBFSH rankings) so I wouldn’t expect it from TBs.

I think we all know it’s a crapshoot. That’s why a surprising number of dressage bred (with jump killing indexes!) or eventer bred horses end up in HJ. So it’s not all about pedigree.

A horse from a family of Cheltenham (4’6) / National Hunt winners and 3* (iirc 3’9) and 4* (iirc 3’11) Eventers can probably jump enough for OP’s goals. The good news is the resulting foal won’t be judged on its H/J ability for approval status. The bad news is, as you said, without the generational depth, H/Jers may not be inclined to breed to him until he proves himself.

I agree with you completely about the comment it’s much easier to buy this than to breed it, but who could OP buy a full TB stallion prospect from? If OP is set on this, she probably has to make it. Do I think the goal is lofty? Yes. But all the more power to OP. Between their low market value and struggling with buyer bias, it’s a labor of love and I can’t fault OP for being brave enough to try it. I sincerely hope it works.

[goodpony]

I woud be careful and check with whatever registry you are aiming for before breeding the mare. Some registries hae restrictions on which crosses are acceptable. That being said i have a registered hanoverian filly that is rougly 87% blood.

[Warmblood1]

My point is is that if the OP intends to produce a stallion intended for a specific discipline, it is recommended to use blood that produces horses for that intended sport. The goal isn’t to produce a horse that can get over a 3 foot fence with pretty good form - the goal is to produce a prepotent stallion that will consistently produce a certain type. Tall orders. And in general, Europeans do not really focus on producing hunters, but you will find American breeders with stallions known for producing hunters - none that I can think of as a full TB.

My biggest point here is that this will be a very expensive and probably near impossible endeavor. I’m wondering if OP if familiar with the stallion approval process and the cost associated? I am, it is not for the faint of heart. I don’t think I’d ever suggest this approach that the OP is considering - using a breed that is rarely approved for major WB registries (and if they are, they are typically an anomaly for the breed), for a sport with very few TBs established to produce this type. Getting a stallion prospect from the most proven of lineage is challenging. This is a bit like the Wild West. Also, the clientele as you mention is going to be challenging - the sport is largely dominated by WBs, so is it wise for OP to spend 80k to get this stallion approved to have a very limited demand for? Will OP be able to breed enough mares each year to even keep licensing? Lots to consider here.

If this were me, I’d forgo the expense, time and process of WB approval and what’s needed to maintain approval and just aim to produce a nice TB Jockey Club stallion with the intention of producing hunter/jumpers.

[Warmblood1]

@beowulf

I agree with you completely about the comment it’s much easier to buy this than to breed it, but who could OP buy a full TB stallion prospect from?

Also meant to address this - there are a plethora of very high quality TB breeders in this country, the majority of which would entertain a potential buyer looking for a very specific type for sport. Been there, done that. If the horse is then proven in sport and has approval based on performance, then all of the traditional aspects typically looked as (such as pedigree approval required by the registry for stallion prospects not proven in sport) will be bypassed. Registries do not really argue with proven results via performance - but they have much to argue with when it comes to a stallion seeking approval without proven performance.

[beowulf]

Who are these high quality HJ TB breeders breeding for HJ in the states? This is a legitimate question with genuine interest behind it because I’d love to be able to direct people to more quality sport TB programs. Even sport(not racing) bred TB breeders are rare in the states. I can only think of two with substantial sport success - Audrea Dyer and Elizabeth Callahan. Neither breed for HJ (eventers) and both those programs sourced race bred TBs.

OP’s parameters are pretty restrictive. She wants a full TB. I don’t disagree it will be expensive and if it was me, I would also source a racebred TB and utilize live cover. But that’s not what OP asked. Can you point her in the direction of someone breeding H/J TBs? Who would you suggest she contact?

You’re telling her she needs to use a stallion with proven HJ sport success. She wants a TB stallion. As far as I’m aware, this stallion doesn’t exist (yet).

[Warmblood1]

@beowulf

Who are these high quality HJ TB breeders breeding for HJ in the states? This is a legitimate question with genuine interest behind it because I’d love to be able to direct people to more quality sport TB programs. Even sport(not racing) bred TB breeders are rare in the states. I can only think of two with substantial sport success - Audrea Dyer and Elizabeth Callahan. Neither breed for HJ (eventers) and both those programs sourced race bred TBs.

OP’s parameters are pretty restrictive. She wants a full TB. I don’t disagree it will be expensive and if it was me, I would also source a racebred TB and utilize live cover. But that’s not what OP asked. Can you point her in the direction of someone breeding H/J TBs? Who would you suggest she contact?

You’re telling her she needs to use a TB stallion with proven HJ sport success. As far as I know, this stallion doesn’t exist (yet).

I think you need to reread what I wrote because none of what you’ve written is what I’ve said. If you are interested in hunter sires I suggest looking at USEF’s list of top hunter sires in the US. As I’ve already said, none of them to my knowledge are TB. I’ve said multiple times that there are very few WB approved TB stallions, even less that could consistently produce a hunter. That should be a red flag. WB registries look for stallion prospects from proven pedigrees, especially if the horse is not proven in sport. I suggest researching the WB approval process for stallions to understand what it is registries look for when it comes to approval. Pedigree approval is the first step in the process.

I also said there are plenty of high quality TB breeders in the US - you can find horses that meet your needs. I have specifically done that previously - bought a TB stallion to be used for sport from a high quality TB breeder.

I have merely offered my opinion as someone who has owned and currently owns stallions, including WB and TB stallions used for sport, and my experience with what registries are looking for. You are free to consider my opinion or not, doesn’t matter much to me. I’d suggest if the OP is serious about this, to reach out to registries and get info directly from the registry. I’d also speak to others who have produced approved WB stallions. A lot of people are eager to offer advice without any real world experience.

[beowulf]

I took my cue from these:

@Warmblood1

Also, the pedigree is something to consider - when submitting pedigrees for stallion approval, registries are going to look at the success of the pedigree - this stallion’s pedigree is limited in performance when it comes to hunters.

@Warmblood1

Regardless of registry, if one is trying produce a horse with an intended purpose, it’s best to use breeding stock proven in that direction, especially if trying to produce a stallion prospect.

@Warmblood1

As far as pedigree, the TB stallion OP has recently posted has very limited horses proven in the jumpers breeding direction

If I misread you, my apologies. I was taking my cue from these comments, and spinning off on whether a TB stallion with OP’s parameters (or your parameters) exists. If I am failing to convey what I’m thinking in a clear manner, that’s on me. I agree with you completely about the expense and the logistics of this (and how WBs would be an easier choice) - I said as much up thread.

I guess a better way to word my response would have been - what TB stallion (within OP’s parameters) do you think fits the bill better?

If you can name a TB that is siring H/J winners consistently, it might help OP. The only two race-breds I know of with any appreciable H/J success (competitive) are Freud and More Than Ready. Freud’s pensioned and More Than Ready has been dead for three years.

[EventerAJ]

@Beowulf
Though I don’t like to admit it, Saketini has produced some very nice hunter types, and he himself could have been a very nice hunter derby horse if I had so chosen to take him in that direction. Eventing is most definitely my game, and the sport with the most appreciation for TBs, so that is naturally where my marketing (as well as my own training/competition goals) has been focused.

He stamps his offspring with a stylish jump, pretty quiet minds and excellent rideability. With hunter type mares, I have no doubt he could make some very successful hunters. But he hasn’t had any interest from hunter breeders, because TBs just aren’t fashionable and there is a belief that TB will “ruin” the mare’s good qualities (being too hot, reducing jump, etc). Event breeders want the TB gallop and desire to go forward; hunters see this as a negative, despite my stallion producing rhythmic canters on his kids that go around with a loop in the rein. As such, I don’t promote him heavily to the H/J world.

[beowulf]

@EventerAJ

TBs just aren’t fashionable and there is a belief that TB will “ruin” the mare’s good qualities (being too hot, reducing jump, etc). Event breeders want the TB gallop and desire to go forward; hunters see this as a negative, despite my stallion producing rhythmic canters

I agree completely. Saketini was the first thing that came to mind when I thought of a sport TB stallion standing to the public that has some sort of sport record. You have my full commiseration about fighting public bias about TBs. The bias against them was one of my concerns mentioned up thread; despite the willingness and the heart of TBs, I just don’t see a market currently for TB sires in the H/J world, so if OP is really dead-set on standing a TB sire for H/J, I think she has to make it herself. I do genuinely hope she succeeds.

(P.S I don’t doubt for a second Saketini could make a nice hunter. You know how much I love Ninja and Akita!)

[EventerAJ]

Yes, you definitely have to make it yourself. And that includes supporting your stallion with your own mares (even after he has a sport record himself), and then producing the offspring up the levels to continue to prove his worth.

I find that most sport TB stallions available in the US are too unproven for me; not just in their own performance, but in their pedigrees to consistently produce successful performance. That’s something I like most about Saketini-- the Bernardini sireline is extremely predictable and heritable across many mares. Some other stallions standing out there (that are WB approved!) come with pedigrees that I find undesirable. They may be fine individuals themselves, but from what I know of their pedigrees it would be more risk than I’d like to create my ideal sport horse type.

TB stallion approval by WB registries makes me roll my eyes a bit… no doubt the German inspectors can judge pedigree, movement, and jumping ability in a potential stallion to influence their registry. However, I don’t think they have seen half as many TBs and their pedigrees as I have. So some stallions get approved (off of race record) that I see the pedigree and think… No Thanks, that isn’t likely to improve my mare, because I’ve seen many other sons/daughters in that pedigree that aren’t built for sport. Not at all saying I’m a better judge of horseflesh than professional registry inspectors, and I don’t claim to know ANYTHING about WB pedigrees. But I’m willing to bet I can judge an American TB’s pedigree better than they can, because that’s what I’ve done for nearly 20 years.

[Willesdon]

Looks like Into Mischief is available by AI - a current thread in the Racing forum

[libgrrl]

Certainly a successful racehorse sire, but I wouldn’t be interested in passing that front end to a potential sporthorse! He throws it too (son Mandaloun)

[Ghazzu]

As one of the Ancient Ones, I’ve been reading these posts with a degree of amusement.
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and hunters showed over actual outside courses, the TB was regarded as the quintessential hunter.
I find the current attitude wrt TBs in the hunter division a source of sorrow.

[jvanrens]

I read that, and it looks like it is for QH racing mares. I doubt it would be the AI fee for a random TB mare to try to get a hunter.

[skydy]

@jvanrens

I read that, and it looks like it is for QH racing mares. I doubt it would be the AI fee for a random TB mare to try to get a hunter.

True, and (hypothetically) I wouldn’t want to chance the front end leg conformation especially, that he often gets, if I wanted a sport horse.

Choose “Walking video” here: https://www.spendthriftfarm.com/stallions/into-mischief/#conformation Look at 00:53.

[Ghazzu]

@skydy

Choose “Walking video” here

Egads.
Those feet!

[Willesdon]

Well, Into Mischief gets a lot of winners - which kinda makes the case for the importance of the mare! - but I couldn’t imagine a WB breeder ever putting up a video of their stallion walking so poorly. I presume it is rickety old age.

[skydy]

He did have an exceptional Dam, but he had only six starts and retired at 3yrs old. While no longer unusual, it does make soundness and longevity of get tough to predict.

[libgrrl]

True. His half sister Beholder was an iron lady!