Approving a TB mare and then breeding her to an approved tb stallion.... is that the only way to purpose breed tb x tb, and is it even possible? Which registries please?

[fivestrideline]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday. It sounds like there are two goals here:

1. breed a successful top level hunter (aiming for the derbies and performance it sounds like)
2. have that baby be registered somewhere in case it’s a colt and is breeding stallion worthy

Both goals are to be accomplished with a foal out of the mare OP already has. In my opinion, 2 is a non-starter without 1 - and while I love me a good TB, that’s a really lofty goal for a full blooded Thoroughbred. If the goal was eventing or jumpers, I’d be more optimistic.

Breeding is such a crapshoot, so you need to start with an excellent foundation. Is the mare out there winning in the hunter ring at anything close to that level? Does she have the step, scope, brain, and movement? What about her would you be looking to improve with a stallion? (You don’t have to spell these out for us, but you SHOULD know the answers.) You may find that none of the sport TB studs you have access to have a record of improving those things… but maybe a WB stud does. Plenty of registries have traditions of admitting good TB mares - if she’s quality for the job, this is a very normal path to getting a registered foal.

It sounds like you, OP, have a mare you would like to breed and a stallion in mind already - the sticking point is that you want to be able to register the foal. If the mare and stallion are well suited to your MAIN goal (performance hunters), and to each other (the real key here), it sounds like there may be some options… but it also sounds like you probably need to wait to see what the stud gets approved in first. Personally I’d choose a proven stud for this baby, one with a record of producing UL hunters.

What I would ACTUALLY do is buy the highest quality colt from the best hunter bloodlines I could find and skip all the guesswork and gambling that goes into breeding. I’d spend that money and energy producing the baby for the hunter ring - you’re going to have to do that anyway, so why chance it?

[EventerAJ]

Hi, TB breeder and stallion owner here.

Several registries will give you a “certificate of pedigree” for an AI-conceived TB. This is different than “approval,” or full registration, as the parents need to be approved for the foal to be accepted.

Years ago I looked into the idea of having a Euro Registry WB-approved TB stallion, bred to Euro Registry WB-approved TB mares, and marketing the resulting offspring as “Euro Registry WBs.” The registries made it clear that is Not A Thing, thank you.

Unless you are planning to breed to a stallion on the opposite coast as you, I will always strongly recommend live cover and get the full JC registration. It really is less hassle. For registration purposes, obviously, but also logistics. If the mare and stallion are close by, you never have to worry if FedEx loses your semen or it arrives dead or she ovulated early or whatever. I offer mare care and fully support mares who ship in to breed to my stallion live cover (both TBs and non-TBs!). It can save money on vet bills too; some mares will conceive with live cover that will miss with AI. Yes, it costs money to ship the mare long distance and pay board, but in the long run it can be more economical that way, especially if you catch one cycle, vs paying for multiple collections and shipping ads up! We had race mares here in FL that we sent to get bred in KY; some were shipped overnight with foal at side, booked to the stallion the very next morning. It worked, mares got pregnant, and shipped back to FL after safely 30-45 days in foal.

Bottom line, look into live cover. It can be a whole lot easier.

[Arzny]

[quote=“EventerAJ, post:42, topic:803571, full:true”
Years ago I looked into the idea of having a Euro Registry WB-approved TB stallion, bred to Euro Registry WB-approved TB mares, and marketing the resulting offspring as “Euro Registry WBs.” The registries made it clear that is Not A Thing, thank you.
[/quote]

Just to be clear, Westfalen absolutely will do this. They will also approve a stallion based off of his racing merits - so you don’t even necessarily need a stallion that’s been to an approval if it was a decent racehorse.

I went through this last year with a mare who I was going to breed a full TB foal out of, and Westfalen was happy to give it full papers. Alas - the mare could never settle.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I’m fairly certain that A Fine Romance was approved Oldenburg?

One of my students bred her registered TB mare to him, and the resulting filly was approved with Oldenburg NA IIRC.

[skydy]

He was approved ISR/OldenburghNA.

[chestnutmarebeware]

If you want a TB hunter stallion that people will want to breed to, then he needs an impressive show record. Papers aren’t nearly as important to hunter people as they are to jumper and dressage owners.

Especially since the foal owners are going to lie and call them WBs of unrecorded breeding anyway, because it’s not “cool” to compete a TB in the show ring.

[imajacres]

Niedersächsisches Landgestüt Celle

[imajacres]

Got him! Now need to wait for frozen in 2026.

Niedersächsisches Landgestüt Celle

[imajacres]

Yes he is

Niedersächsisches Landgestüt Celle

[elizabeth_Callahan]

Yes. I have done it with Old Na years ago and Westfalen will also register . Dam has to be approved for breeding and sire has to be approved as well. There are several Tb stallions that are approved .

[Warmblood1]

Has he been proven in sport? What is he producing?

[beowulf]

@Warmblood1

Has he been proven in sport? What is he producing?

His dam produced a 4* horse and his sire has several at least competing 3*, which is probably why he was sourced. His sire side is better known across the pond, but Mill Reef should make most eventers sit up. If memory serves, he didn’t race. I don’t believe any of his foals are under saddle yet.

Here’s his summary report from inspection:

JACK-THE-ROBIN.pdf

I look forward to seeing more from him. He’s a nice, correct type. I don’t believe he’s the best TBs have to offer in terms of dressage-type movement, but standing a TB is so hard these days, I appreciate it being done.

All the pieces are there for this horse (type, movement, pedigree, etc) and only time will tell.

[SusanO]

But can he jump? Or more importantly does he not decrease jumping ability from the dam of his progeny. I think the biggest market would be eventers. Dressage horses are being bred to be pretty light horses these days. No longer the hulking monsters that needed a big strong man to pull together. Jumpers have a lot of “blood” these days especially from the Selle Francais blood that seems to be used increasingly. But even in the short format an eventer needs the ability to gallop naturally and the stamina and endurance and toughness found in the TB. I think these qualities will always be in demand, especially with the breeding going towards dressage movers and show jumping in the eventers.

[beowulf]

@SusanO

But can he jump? Or more importantly does he not decrease jumping ability from the dam of his progeny. I think the biggest market would be eventers.

Peep his pedigree for that answer. There’s quite a few Cheltenham / National Hunt representatives there.

I probably wouldn’t use him for straight SJ, but the appeal is there for eventers for several reasons.

[Warmblood1]

Thanks, I’ve seen his linear scores before. From what I understand OP wants to produce a hunter stallion prospect, not an eventer. This stallion has a handful of foals on the ground but are quite young/unproven. Not sure this stallion is confidently going to produce hunter types. Also, the pedigree is something to consider - when submitting pedigrees for stallion approval, registries are going to look at the success of the pedigree - this stallion’s pedigree is limited in performance when it comes to hunters.

A lot of this depends on if OP wants to get licensing as a 3/4 year old versus approval via competition and what registry they want to approve the stallion through. Different registries have different breeding directions.

[beowulf]

I don’t disagree with you, I just don’t know any currently standing hunter TB stallions who also have (generational) performance history in that discipline. Even in the WB world, most registries don’t breed specifically for hunters and don’t even include that sport in their progeny rankings.

Do you know of any TB stallions standing for H/J that have generational/proven performance? Genuine question as the only one I can think of has been dead years now.

[endlessclimb]

Has Raven Sky been mentioned here? Is he even still being marketed as a breeding stallion? He’s got the heft the hunters like, and seemed to have a pretty impressive jump on him from the pictures/videos. Not sure on temperament.

[Warmblood1]

Most registries have a jumping direction versus strictly hunters, or are largely focused on producing jumpers such as BWP or Holsteiner versus KWPN which does have more specific breeding directions such as dressage, hunters, jumpers, harness and Gelders. KWPN NA does not have any full TBs with approval to my knowledge however. Regardless of registry, if one is trying produce a horse with an intended purpose, it’s best to use breeding stock proven in that direction, especially if trying to produce a stallion prospect. The options for full TBs standing with the major registries is incredibly small, is geared more towards jumpers, has fewer that can consistently produce nice hunters. This was my point a few posts ago - this seems like a backwards endeavor if the goal is to produce a stallion geared towards the hunters breeding direction with WB approval.

As far as pedigree, the TB stallion OP has recently posted has very limited horses proven in the jumpers breeding direction on the dam’s side which is relevant to registries when approving stallions (when going the route of approval via inspection/testing versus a horse proven in competition). The stallion also doesn’t exactly have the movement of most competitive hunters IMO. The stallion is largely unproven. I think OP would be much better served buying a horse on the ground versus the current route.

ETA : probably worth saying I’ve come in and out of this convo quite a bit so apologies if I’m repeating myself.

[beowulf]

That was my point for sure - even Euro WB jumping directions generally don’t take H/J success into account (ex. WBFSH rankings) so I wouldn’t expect it from TBs.

I think we all know it’s a crapshoot. That’s why a surprising number of dressage bred (with jump killing indexes!) or eventer bred horses end up in HJ. So it’s not all about pedigree.

A horse from a family of Cheltenham (4’6) / National Hunt winners and 3* (iirc 3’9) and 4* (iirc 3’11) Eventers can probably jump enough for OP’s goals. The good news is the resulting foal won’t be judged on its H/J ability for approval status. The bad news is, as you said, without the generational depth, H/Jers may not be inclined to breed to him until he proves himself.

I agree with you completely about the comment it’s much easier to buy this than to breed it, but who could OP buy a full TB stallion prospect from? If OP is set on this, she probably has to make it. Do I think the goal is lofty? Yes. But all the more power to OP. Between their low market value and struggling with buyer bias, it’s a labor of love and I can’t fault OP for being brave enough to try it. I sincerely hope it works.

[goodpony]

I woud be careful and check with whatever registry you are aiming for before breeding the mare. Some registries hae restrictions on which crosses are acceptable. That being said i have a registered hanoverian filly that is rougly 87% blood.