http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/jury-rules-in-aqha-cloning-case.aspx
Complete insanity to force the AQHA to accept clones, insanity!
Whether or not one agrees with cloning, the fact is, it IS here, and probably to stay, at least for a good long while.
One thing people are complaining about with cloning is that the clone isn’t the original - won’t perform the same, etc. How on earth will anyone know that objectively if they are not tracked? How can you track them if they aren’t registered?
Not registering clones is shooting your foot to spite your face. There WILL end up being foals from clones who are deemed to be from the original, and unless and until you start accurately registering and tracking clones, you aren’t going to know that.
Just because a registry willingly or forcibly accepts clones doesn’t mean they can’t be in a separate registry just for the clones. IMHO, that’s the way to go - track/register them, absolutely, but make it very clear they are a clone, either by name or pre/postfix, or separate registry (or both).
Closing your eyes to registering them, complaining it’s wrong, isn’t going to make cloning go away. Refusing to allow registration is just going to encourage illegal breeding/registering, though I’m not saying registering them will mean nothing illegal goes on.
I personally don’t oppose clones but I don’t agree a private organization like AQHA or a registry should be required to register them. I disagree with the holding in the max white case too – but unfortunately I’m not the judge.
If a rule like the TB “Live Cover” rule is permissible, the cloning ban should be as well. Registries can deal with their own enforcement issues if they want a ban.
I can’t wait for the AQHA event “Clone War Congress”. 
[QUOTE=JB;7100544]
Whether or not one agrees with cloning, the fact is, it IS here, and probably to stay, at least for a good long while.
One thing people are complaining about with cloning is that the clone isn’t the original - won’t perform the same, etc. How on earth will anyone know that objectively if they are not tracked? How can you track them if they aren’t registered?
Not registering clones is shooting your foot to spite your face. There WILL end up being foals from clones who are deemed to be from the original, and unless and until you start accurately registering and tracking clones, you aren’t going to know that.
Just because a registry willingly or forcibly accepts clones doesn’t mean they can’t be in a separate registry just for the clones. IMHO, that’s the way to go - track/register them, absolutely, but make it very clear they are a clone, either by name or pre/postfix, or separate registry (or both).
Closing your eyes to registering them, complaining it’s wrong, isn’t going to make cloning go away. Refusing to allow registration is just going to encourage illegal breeding/registering, though I’m not saying registering them will mean nothing illegal goes on.[/QUOTE]
Here’s the problem with registering clones… from an AQHA member and competitor. Most clones are of deceased stallions or mares that who to be genetically possible must have been foaled many years ago. From such distinction as Docs Serenity and Smart Little Lena. Almost all clones in the QH industry are of cutting horses… which can be shown NCHA with no registration needed. Any horse regardless of breed is eligible to participate and collect earnings. Therefore SLL CLONES can be shown and compared to original. And the offspring will obviously not be passed off as the original since SLL past away in 2010. They just want to collect stud fees for the bloodline without any testing on whether or not the clone has any genetic faults.
There was a big debate in AQHA when a tip show made had 4 high priced embryo transferred foals in one year and people screamed foul. However I believe at least 2 of them have gone on to win big and prove its an OK method. If you look back to 2010 4 SLL clones were sold at auction… two sold for under $3000 as sterile, other two sold for under $30k … not worth the investment and all this hoopla IMO.
I truly hope this give FQHA a big boost of support for maintaining the sanctity of the breed and hopefully turn it back in the right direction. My two boys are foundation bred and compete just fine with the modern lines.
Why can’t an offspring of a SLL clone be passed of as being by the original SLL? No frozen semen? Even if HE doesn’t have frozen laying around, there are plenty of deceased stallions in various breeds who do, and that is used to produce foals years after their death.
I’m assuming “tip show made” is “top show mare”? LOL
I may be wrong… but I’m fairly certain AQHA does not allow frozen after the studnis deceased. Unlike WB registries. If at all… come to think I can’t remember a single stud ad for frozen its all fresh or cooled. Again, could be wrong. That said… in the case of Docs Serenity, the original made was the from the sire DocBar, deceased in 1996. There is no conceivable way those genetics can be that close up without being a clone. SLL has plenty of money earning registered offspring to carry on the lineage that owning a clones is a symbol… not bettering the breed.
And yes… my autocorrect got me. The mare was Vital Signs Are Good. Her ET son VS Code Red has won a ton and is a prominent sire in his own right. I believe they also cloned Scamper, this famous barrel horse… but as with NCHA , NBHA is non-breed sanctioned. So can compete to prove the worth.
Honestly I would ALMOST be OK with clones being allowed full papers IF they earned a certain amount aof money through one of the several associations that do not require papers.
fWIW… I am not against all cloning for competition purposes. If Gemini Twist or Poetin 2 clones want to compete go for it. But I can’t think of one horse worth to be cloned for its genetics only. Too many factoes , not only not being able to repeat the handling and training , but also no proven science tonic these clones will have abnormalities in offspring. And with QH there’s enough of that crap going around the original.
[QUOTE=City Ponies;7100892]
But I can’t think of one horse worth to be cloned for its genetics only. Too many factoes , not only not being able to repeat the handling and training , but also no proven science tonic these clones will have abnormalities in offspring.[/QUOTE]
But that’s the point of registration - to track that stuff so you’ll KNOW. Cloned offspring are being bred now and at least as of this year, have produced foals. So far, I haven’t heard wind of any genetic abnormalities.
Clones are here. Not registering them isn’t going to make them go away, not when many of these breeds have options to perform without being registered. FEI now allows clones and their offspring to compete, so that big sticking block has been removed.
Make the best of the situation and track them so if the feared scientific (as opposed to moral/ethical) reasons against cloning bear out, it will be out in the public and can be used as defense to stop cloning (though I doubt that will ever happen).
AQHA and frozen - I don’t see anything that disallows frozen from deceased stallions
http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionII/rules/209.html
You’re right. I just never see it… but I also tend to buy from older foundation lines. Regardless… they are trying to bring back lines that cannot be reproduced and are cloning 20+ year old horses. So even when DNA tested it would be fairly obvious that it was from a clone. Or in the case of Scamper who was shown a gelding during his reign.
FEI, NBHA, NCHA, NHRA, etc. Cloned horses… sure… why not. Let’s seen if they can really stand up to the original. However with all the horrible preconcieved notions people have about AQHA with HYPP, HERDA, PSSM, etc… we now have 6 way genetic disorder panels that any foal with certain lineage must be tested with. Only HYPP is registration monitored but there is a big change in buyers for toward horses that have a negative panel so its incentive for breeders to only breed negatives. Why add another possibility into the mix and have to have another Impressive catastrophe in the breed it will take 40 years to fix.? That’s my standpoint. Not to mention … with all the QH going to slaughter BC of the horrible stance AQHA has on it… why should we add thousands more who will be clone offsprings?
[QUOTE=City Ponies;7100816]
Here’s the problem with registering clones… from an AQHA member and competitor. Most clones are of deceased stallions or mares that who to be genetically possible must have been foaled many years ago. From such distinction as Docs Serenity and Smart Little Lena. Almost all clones in the QH industry are of cutting horses… which can be shown NCHA with no registration needed. Any horse regardless of breed is eligible to participate and collect earnings. Therefore SLL CLONES can be shown and compared to original. And the offspring will obviously not be passed off as the original since SLL past away in 2010. They just want to collect stud fees for the bloodline without any testing on whether or not the clone has any genetic faults.
There was a big debate in AQHA when a tip show made had 4 high priced embryo transferred foals in one year and people screamed foul. However I believe at least 2 of them have gone on to win big and prove its an OK method. If you look back to 2010 4 SLL clones were sold at auction… two sold for under $3000 as sterile, other two sold for under $30k … not worth the investment and all this hoopla IMO.
I truly hope this give FQHA a big boost of support for maintaining the sanctity of the breed and hopefully turn it back in the right direction. My two boys are foundation bred and compete just fine with the modern lines.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me?
The FQHA is extremely restrictive of bloodlines.
Ever look at how many times in any one horse is Poco Bueno?
Talk about inbreeding.
No, any registry that restricts breeding or bloodlines past so much is playing into the game of less genetic diversity, which itself is not bad to get the traits you are after, but for the species can end up in a genetic bottleneck.
I would say it is in the best interest of any breed to be as open as they can, with few limits and let the breeder’s vision bring forth all it may, some better than other, but their vision.
[QUOTE=JB;7100895]Not registering them isn’t going to make them go away, not when many of these breeds have options to perform without being registered.
[/quote]
Agreed. It’s akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why not simply put clones + clone offspring in a different book? Not registering them does nothing but allow possibly excellent genetics to fall through the cracks. The North American affiliate of the Dutch Friesian registry has the same silly policy. They won’t even register a horse if it’s not by an “approved” stallion. At one time, they used to give them “B Book II” papers. Now they get nothing. Makes zero sense.
[QUOTE=City Ponies;7100925]
FEI, NBHA, NCHA, NHRA, etc. Cloned horses… sure… why not. Let’s seen if they can really stand up to the original. However with all the horrible preconcieved notions people have about AQHA with HYPP, HERDA, PSSM, etc… we now have 6 way genetic disorder panels that any foal with certain lineage must be tested with. Only HYPP is registration monitored but there is a big change in buyers for toward horses that have a negative panel so its incentive for breeders to only breed negatives. Why add another possibility into the mix and have to have another Impressive catastrophe in the breed it will take 40 years to fix.? That’s my standpoint. Not to mention … with all the QH going to slaughter BC of the horrible stance AQHA has on it… why should we add thousands more who will be clone offsprings?[/QUOTE]
This is exactly why they should be registered - to track them.
Wishing for no clones so as to not potentially introduce another mass genetic disorder into too many individuals and generations is not going to stop the cloning. That horse has already left the barn.
One COULD make the argument that horses with these known genetic disorders can’t be cloned, though I’m not sure there would be any legal precedence that would enforce that.
But truly, what are the odds that one of these clones, because of cloning, will mutate a disease that has physical issues? Mutations occur all the time, it’s just that the vast majority of them are invisible and irrelevant. Sometimes they do cause problems, but they’ve been doing that since long before cloning. Why would cloning add to that risk?
[QUOTE=Bluey;7101024]
Are you kidding me?
The FQHA is extremely restrictive of bloodlines.
Ever look at how many times in any one horse is Poco Bueno?
Talk about inbreeding.
No, any registry that restricts breeding or bloodlines past so much is playing into the game of less genetic diversity, which itself is not bad to get the traits you are after, but for the species can end up in a genetic bottleneck.
I would say it is in the best interest of any breed to be as open as they can, with few limits and let the breeder’s vision bring forth all it may, some better than other, but their vision.[/QUOTE]
I had a well formed response and then my connection dropped
Ugh. If you look at my guy Zippos Kryptonite he is 94% foundation with almost no inbreeding at all. He’s modern type and very similar to build and talent to Zippo Pine Bar. It can happen and I seek out those breeder and horses when I am looking for myself.
I guess I am slightly jaded by the QH industry which is finally making an effort to pick itself up some credibility in my eyes. Phasing out HYPP and Herda. New Ranch horse pleasure classes that are anti-bling and peanut rolling. Hunter Derby series. I was getting impressed and proud to begin competing at AQHA events again. I will say most of the membership does NOT want clones. They are beginning to lean more and more toward proven lines only and even with that only proven individuals to breed. You will always have BYB and with QH its just the most economical to do because supply is abundant. I fear that if registering a clone just to produce “own sons of” by nobodyes who have no business breeding g is going to create a flood of registered junk horses with no guarantee of genetic stability.
—" …I fear that if registering a clone just to produce “own sons of” by nobodyes who have no business breeding g is going to create a flood of registered junk horses with no guarantee of genetic stability."—
That really doesn’t make any sense, not at all what cloning is all about.
Are sure we are talking about the same thing here?
I too have had and have now a FQHA registered horse, by the way, double registered and think that the tendency of some to put FQHA and such registries on a pedestal and bash the AQHA is unbecoming, especially when accusing the AQHA from inbreeding, when those other quarter horse associations are based on a smaller genetic pool.
Don’t get me wrong please. I’m not bashing all modern type AQHA horses. I work at a bigger QH barn with 17 hand modern hunt seat lines and they are some lovely horses. I should love one for myself that could cross over into the USEF arena. Something about a good working line that just draws me more. I just mean the association as a whole had a pretty rough period of abuse, irresponsibility and market flooding. Its finally making a turn around and I’m happy that its recognizing the talent of foundation type pleasure horses in their own right.
I would just hate to see a clone of SLL produce several hundred registered offspring… you know there will be culls… which can fall into BYB hands for the “famous bloodline” and quickly sprout off into a breeding frenzy of SLL line horses that have no husiness breeding. I just don’t trust the science enough at this moment to say… ya let’s open the flood gates to these lab created genetics. Again… give me 3 or 4 generations of limited studbook or performance required papers… I’m not 100% closed minded… but just to jump into it BC some rich folks got their panties in a was BC they can’t sell what they created… over 20 horses. Eh. Idk.
