AQHA lost cloning/registration case

[JB]

@City Ponies;7102233

I guess I am slightly jaded by the QH industry which is finally making an effort to pick itself up some credibility in my eyes. Phasing out HYPP and Herda.

Is there a push to not allow HERDA horses registered? Or are you just talking about requiring their status to be noted on papers? Is there a timeline in which they have already said they will now allow even N/H horses to be registered?

I will say most of the membership does NOT want clones.

I wouldn’t doubt that but the question is “why”. There are lots of reasons, including many which are based on incorrect facts. Some is “just because God wouldn’t do that” (which doesn’t make it right or wrong, just is), and many others I’ve heard of. Just curious what you’re hearing

I fear that if registering a clone just to produce “own sons of” by nobodyes who have no business breeding g is going to create a flood of registered junk horses with no guarantee of genetic stability.

Oh man, who is going to spend $100k+ to clone a nobody that people wouldn’t breed to as the original nobody? Who’s going to buy foals from/by “nobody” clones when they wouldn’t buy them from the “nobody” original? That fear doesn’t make sense

[JB]

@City Ponies;7102298

I would just hate to see a clone of SLL produce several hundred registered offspring… you know there will be culls… which can fall into BYB hands for the “famous bloodline” and quickly sprout off into a breeding frenzy of SLL line horses that have no husiness breeding.

But that happens today without cloning. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen horses who are bad conformation at best as a gelding, much less breeding stock, being kept intact to breed simply because they have Mr Big Name Stallion 5 generations back, and mare owners choosing those stallions because they’re close, cheap, and omgosh have Mr Big Name Stallion 5 generations back. That exists today - much worse in some breeds than others.

I just don’t trust the science enough at this moment to say… ya let’s open the flood gates to these lab created genetics.

And that’s fine, because this is new in terms of breeding the clones, and breeding the clones’ offspring.

Again… give me 3 or 4 generations of limited studbook or performance required papers… I’m not 100% closed minded… but just to jump into it BC some rich folks got their panties in a was BC they can’t sell what they created… over 20 horses. Eh. Idk.

And until these clones are registered so they can be tracked, nobody will ever have the 3-4-5 generations of genetic material and performance to know whether this is a beneficial thing.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=City Ponies;7102298]
Don’t get me wrong please. I’m not bashing all modern type AQHA horses. I work at a bigger QH barn with 17 hand modern hunt seat lines and they are some lovely horses. I should love one for myself that could cross over into the USEF arena. Something about a good working line that just draws me more. I just mean the association as a whole had a pretty rough period of abuse, irresponsibility and market flooding. Its finally making a turn around and I’m happy that its recognizing the talent of foundation type pleasure horses in their own right.

I would just hate to see a clone of SLL produce several hundred registered offspring… you know there will be culls… which can fall into BYB hands for the “famous bloodline” and quickly sprout off into a breeding frenzy of SLL line horses that have no husiness breeding. I just don’t trust the science enough at this moment to say… ya let’s open the flood gates to these lab created genetics. Again… give me 3 or 4 generations of limited studbook or performance required papers… I’m not 100% closed minded… but just to jump into it BC some rich folks got their panties in a was BC they can’t sell what they created… over 20 horses. Eh. Idk.[/QUOTE]

Is that not what is happening already, so many “Hancock”, “Driftwood”, “Poco Bueno”, “Skipper W”, you name it breeders, working back and forth just with those lines, some in AQHA, some in offshoot registries?
How about the same for color, palomino registry, buckskin, etc.?

Breeders do what breeders do, have a vision and follow it.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=JB;7100544]
Whether or not one agrees with cloning, the fact is, it IS here, and probably to stay, at least for a good long while.

One thing people are complaining about with cloning is that the clone isn’t the original - won’t perform the same, etc. How on earth will anyone know that objectively if they are not tracked? How can you track them if they aren’t registered?

Not registering clones is shooting your foot to spite your face. There WILL end up being foals from clones who are deemed to be from the original, and unless and until you start accurately registering and tracking clones, you aren’t going to know that.

Just because a registry willingly or forcibly accepts clones doesn’t mean they can’t be in a separate registry just for the clones. IMHO, that’s the way to go - track/register them, absolutely, but make it very clear they are a clone, either by name or pre/postfix, or separate registry (or both).

Closing your eyes to registering them, complaining it’s wrong, isn’t going to make cloning go away. Refusing to allow registration is just going to encourage illegal breeding/registering, though I’m not saying registering them will mean nothing illegal goes on.[/QUOTE]

Well said!! Smart registries will simply form a sub-registry or symbol to designate clones – maybe with some extra requirements.

Then let the PERFORMANCE organizations sort them out. Registering is simply saying the horse is this, that and the other, and makes no claims of soundness or anything else.

Hell, AQHA registered how many hundreds of Impressive foals for at least a decade full knowing about HYPP…I’m thinking afew clones from some of the top horses in the breed aren’t going to hurt things much…

[Bluey]

My understanding is that the research involved in these processes, AI, embryo and cloning had many hurdles to overcome, much was learned that is now being used in other scientific processes, not just in this field.

I think that cloning specific horses and marketing them to recoup some of the expenses thru that should not be held against those that did it, as long as they followed the applicable rules the association, here AQHA, was working under at the time they were working on this.

I think maybe that may be what they could show in court and the AQHA could not show it was not so, obviously.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7102514]
Well said!! Smart registries will simply form a sub-registry or symbol to designate clones – maybe with some extra requirements.

Then let the PERFORMANCE organizations sort them out. Registering is simply saying the horse is this, that and the other, and makes no claims of soundness or anything else.

Hell, AQHA registered how many hundreds of Impressive foals for at least a decade full knowing about HYPP…I’m thinking afew clones from some of the top horses in the breed aren’t going to hurt things much…[/QUOTE]

That is what the AQHA did when TBs were accepted thru the appendix registry.
Surely no one could insist a TB registered horse was an AQHA horse and they found a way to still keep TBs as part of the AQHA registry.

[BayRoan]

Carol Harris is still producing Rugged Lark foals with frozen semen, as the McQuays are with Hollywood Dun It frozen semen.

On the cloning issue, as a long time AQHA member, I have a couple of concerns. First, the clone not only carries the DNA of the donor horse, but also the mitochondrial DNA of the egg used to create the clone. Mitochondrial DNA contains at least 13 active genes. Research is still showing how these genes help control gene expression, and regulate other aspects of the individual organism. I don’t want arabian, belgian, whatever, mDNA floating around in my Quarter Horse. I think the donor eggs should be from AQHA or JC registered horses, and the donor should be noted on the papers of the clone.

Second, current DNA/parentage verification techniques used by the association do not detect mDNA. I believe the offspring of a clone could easily be passed off as offspring of the original. If clones are to be registered, they ought to be freeze branded along the neck with the alpha angle system, much like blm horses, half arabians, and the ApHC cpo horses were, once upon a time. It won’t prohibit all underhanded shenanigans, but at least it would identify the individual, in the flesh.

[City_Ponies]

[QUOTE=BayRoan;7102630]
Carol Harris is still producing Rugged Lark foals with frozen semen, as the McQuays are with Hollywood Dun It frozen semen.

On the cloning issue, as a long time AQHA member, I have a couple of concerns. First, the clone not only carries the DNA of the donor horse, but also the mitochondrial DNA of the egg used to create the clone. Mitochondrial DNA contains at least 13 active genes. Research is still showing how these genes help control gene expression, and regulate other aspects of the individual organism. I don’t want arabian, belgian, whatever, mDNA floating around in my Quarter Horse. I think the donor eggs should be from AQHA or JC registered horses, and the donor should be noted on the papers of the clone.

Second, current DNA/parentage verification techniques used by the association do not detect mDNA. I believe the offspring of a clone could easily be passed off as offspring of the original. If clones are to be registered, they ought to be freeze branded along the neck with the alpha angle system, much like blm horses, half arabians, and the ApHC cpo horses were, once upon a time. It won’t prohibit all underhanded shenanigans, but at least it would identify the individual, in the flesh.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for expressing part of what I couldn’t get out. I really like this idea.

And to those who asked… concernsnim hearing are its disturbing the sanctity of the breed and overwhelming fears of another Impressive problem. My other thought are registering with a distinct number like Appendix horses… C first instead ofnX maybe then issuing full papers upon performance same as Appendix.

To a PP. These people that brought up to suit made 4 clones of SLL that sold in 2010. They spent $165,000 on each. At sale 2 sterile ones brought $2800 and $3200. 2 prospects brought $28,000 and $27000. I believe. Hardly pays off in the end. And they produced the most recent groupnpf 20 after AQHA implemented the non clone rule. Hoping to buy their way in after the fact.

[back_in_the_saddle]

@BayRoan;7102630

On the cloning issue, as a long time AQHA member, I have a couple of concerns. First, the clone not only carries the DNA of the donor horse, but also the mitochondrial DNA of the egg used to create the clone. Mitochondrial DNA contains at least 13 active genes. Research is still showing how these genes help control gene expression, and regulate other aspects of the individual organism. I don’t want arabian, belgian, whatever, mDNA floating around in my Quarter Horse. I think the donor eggs should be from AQHA or JC registered horses, and the donor should be noted on the papers of the clone.

This is good info… Can you explain how a clone is made? It sounds as if more goes into a clone than the original horse. How can that be called a clone when it’s only 99% (or whatever) cloned?

[bugsynskeeter]

[QUOTE=City Ponies;7102711]
To a PP. These people that brought up to suit made 4 clones of SLL that sold in 2010. They spent $165,000 on each. At sale 2 sterile ones brought $2800 and $3200. 2 prospects brought $28,000 and $27000. I believe. Hardly pays off in the end. And they produced the most recent groupnpf 20 after AQHA implemented the non clone rule. Hoping to buy their way in after the fact.[/QUOTE]

You also have to remember that there was quite a bit wrong with several of those clones, besides just sterility. Parrot mouth, limb deformities, etc…

[SportArab]

OK. So if the AQHA can be required to register clones, why not the Jockey Club required to register foals from transported semen???

[bugsynskeeter]

[QUOTE=SportArab;7102799]
OK. So if the AQHA can be required to register clones, why not the Jockey Club required to register foals from transported semen???[/QUOTE]

Because JC hasn’t been successfully sued to change their rules.

[SportArab]

Ah, but it only takes one enterprising person. Certainly by the same logic that says the AQHA must register clones, the JC just register horses created with TS.

[City_Ponies]

[QUOTE=JB;7102484]
Is there a push to not allow HERDA horses registered? Or are you just talking about requiring their status to be noted on papers? Is there a timeline in which they have already said they will now allow even N/H horses to be registered?

I wouldn’t doubt that but the question is “why”. There are lots of reasons, including many which are based on incorrect facts. Some is “just because God wouldn’t do that” (which doesn’t make it right or wrong, just is), and many others I’ve heard of. Just curious what you’re hearing

Oh man, who is going to spend $100k+ to clone a nobody that people wouldn’t breed to as the original nobody? Who’s going to buy foals from/by “nobody” clones when they wouldn’t buy them from the “nobody” original? That fear doesn’t make sense [/QUOTE]

The tentative date for N/H horses is 2017… last I heard. hERDA is getting weeded out through steps taken by responsible members to cull positives and yes the fact its now stamped on papers is making a difference.

Again… I just don’t see a need to flood the market with offsprings of clones at all when there is an overpopulation of perfectly good and poorly bred horses. Why add more to the mix simply so Joe Blow can spend $5000 on a stud fee to SLL or IO clone to have “son/daughter of” then ends up in the mix. Why add to the problem?

[BayRoan]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7102775]
This is good info… Can you explain how a clone is made? It sounds as if more goes into a clone than the original horse. How can that be called a clone when it’s only 99% (or whatever) cloned?[/QUOTE]

I can explain the very basics of how a “clone” is made by the processes currently in use by ViaGen and similar companies. First, back to basic biology of a cell, which is that the cell has a nucleus, where the vast majority of DNA is stored, but there is another bit in the cell known as the mitochondria. The mitochondria is often referred to as the powerhouse of the cell. They are responsible for creating the energy to keep the cell alive. They have some of their own DNA. In the cloning process, a donor egg must be used. The eggs are typically harvested from slaughtered mares and then frozen. The egg is a single cell itself. The DNA of the nucleus is removed, and replaced with DNA harvested from the horse to be cloned. The egg cell is then manipulated to start dividing, and is then implanted into a recipient mare’s uterus, where it grows into a fetus, then a foal.

Because only the nuclear DNA is replaced, the mitochondrial DNA remains. Science still doesn’t understand all the implications of mitochondrial DNA, but it is believed to have a function in epigenetics, or how genes are expressed, which has vast implications for how an organism looks and functions.

The presence of mitochondrial DNA is what, some believe, tips the scales towards the mare in a foal taking after its parents. The egg, being a complete cell, has the mitochondrial DNA that is passed to the foal, while the sperm cell is essentially just a delivery force for the sire’s nuclear DNA. Mitochondrial DNA can be traced, and it is in human research, but current tests for parentage verification in horses only test nuclear DNA.

[JB]

@SportArab;7102927

Ah, but it only takes one enterprising person. Certainly by the same logic that says the AQHA must register clones, the JC just register horses created with TS.[/QUOTE]
Australia recently turned down a lawsuit for this. It’s only a matter of time before it’s brought again, and IMVHO, only a matter of time before they win. After that, door open.

[QUOTE=City Ponies;7103084]The tentative date for N/H horses is 2017… last I heard. hERDA is getting weeded out through steps taken by responsible members to cull positives and yes the fact its now stamped on papers is making a difference.

Thanks - I had not heard a date for N/H being disallowed

Again… I just don’t see a need to flood the market with offsprings of clones at all when there is an overpopulation of perfectly good and poorly bred horses. Why add more to the mix simply so Joe Blow can spend $5000 on a stud fee to SLL or IO clone to have “son/daughter of” then ends up in the mix. Why add to the problem?

I really don’t think there will be any flood of clones. I DO wish there was some legal ceiling on how many offspring a mare or stallion can have and still be cloned. It simply does not make the remotest sense to have a stallion with 100’s of kids and 10’s of stallions, cloned. None. Waste of $$ (though not really a waste of technology since the more there are, the more data can be gathered), and it does absolutely nothing to even think about improving the gene pool.

IMHO it was ridiculous to clone SLL, let alone 5 times. Gem Twist - now that’s as good a reason as any out there - never a producing stallion, excellent sporthorse blood that is all but extinct in terms of breedability. I can even see the validity behind the 2 bucking horses - gelding and mare who never produced. But SLL? Gah, just…why :no:

[Bluey]

The truth is that no one knows why the judge ruled as it did.
Until we do, from an impartial source, not from either of the parties involved, all this is guesses only.

[City_Ponies]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7103154]
The truth is that no one knows why the judge ruled as it did.
Until we do, from an impartial source, not from either of the parties involved, all this is guesses only.[/QUOTE]

Jury ruled. Jury of none horse people of course. And the plaintiffs were seeking somewhere in the ballpark of $5 million in punitive damages that were denied.

There is a FB group called “I stand with AQHA and do not support clones”. Something like that. It links to several stallions that have been cloned. Including 3 Frenchman’s Guy clones running around, High Brow Cat, a Steakin Six daughter, and talks about IO being next. I’m with you JB. Aside from Gem, Scamper, or tragic ending horses like Sapphire and Poetin… none of the above listed have any reason to be cloned. There are plenty of replicas already

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;7102801]
Because JC hasn’t been successfully sued to change their rules.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! You have to understand that the JC is run by a bunch of VERY rich guys who as part of the BODs, have had their place in the golden room handed down for generations. Most are based in KY or FL and are trying to safe-guard the breeding industry in those states.

AQHA I’m sure had a bunch of “rich guys” as well, but apparently there are enough of them to sway the courts.

A recent trial in Australia showed how powerful the JC is…even downunder. The courts there found that forbiding TS and AI is NOT restriction of trade.

But it will come. Mark my words, within the next 10 yrs. the JC will be forced by SOMEBODY to make a change and drag their elite butts into the 21st Century.

[bugsynskeeter]

[QUOTE=City Ponies;7103236]
Jury ruled. Jury of none horse people of course. And the plaintiffs were seeking somewhere in the ballpark of $5 million in punitive damages that were denied.

There is a FB group called “I stand with AQHA and do not support clones”. Something like that. It links to several stallions that have been cloned. Including 3 Frenchman’s Guy clones running around, High Brow Cat, a Steakin Six daughter, and talks about IO being next. I’m with you JB. Aside from Gem, Scamper, or tragic ending horses like Sapphire and Poetin… none of the above listed have any reason to be cloned. There are plenty of replicas already[/QUOTE]

They are missing a whole bunch. Royal Blue Boon has been cloned, as have a few other cutting mares. There are also rumors of another pleasure stallion that has already been cloned…but those are rumors.