Are mares really worth it?

[mvp]

Indeed.

OP, call your mare on her disrespectful* behavior. And then make yourself a credible, worthwhile boss.

I used to own and really like the usefulness of the kind, good ol’ boy gelding. Now I own a sensitive, self-possessed mare. Fortunately (and on purpose), I bought those minds for different disciplines. I don’t think my current mare, for example, could have done the hunter gelding’s job. Also, she could not have developed with me as her rider as the horseman I was when I owned the gelding. Rather, this mare has made me really up my horsemanship game and I adore her for that reason.

All that is to say that you have to like what a strong mare is: She is psychologically your equal and her own care-taker, so she’ll naturally pursue her own agenda. You will be either wall paper (or an annoyance), or someone who can intervene in her world and be worth her help and her obedience. But that depends on your ability to negotiate your place in the relationship with her.

Philosophically, I don’t think that’s unreasonable for a 1,000 pound grown-ass adult. But it does mean that I need to be prepared to participate in a partnership with her. I don’t get anything that I don’t ask for. But the more things I ask for, the less hard it is to have her comply. Several years into owning her, I really, really love the way she participates in her training. She tries hard and is an extremely good student. In comparison, my gelding was the kind guy who wanted to cruise through life getting the “gentleman’s C.” Yanno, I’m not sure I want that kind of ride anymore.

So what kind of relationship did you want in owning a horse? That’s worth figuring out. Because your mare is just “doing her” and isn’t going to change except as her riders and handlers require. That said, you won’t have much affect on this mare when she’s not “on the clock.” But you can get lots done by managing her living situation well so that she’s happy. A mare will try to solve any problem she has, her way. Either you solve it better or stand back and watch her to do it. But she won’t just roll over and accept a bad situation like a neighbor in a stall who messes with her peace of mind.

Also, I thought that ovarectomies in mares didn’t reduce the mare-ish behaviors because it is progesterone, made elsewhere, not estrogen that causes it. But it sounds like your mare is worse when she is in season so you guys just wanted to stop the cycling?

Mares who are intelligently managed and handled and ridden can be fine citizens, IMO.

*If you have read this far, I hope you can tell that I mean the word, “disrespectful” in a specific way, not the way all Natural Horsemanship gurus can tend to spread that term over all kinds of horses, even those who are inconsiderate of their handlers because they are uneducated. What I mean in calling a mare “disrespectful” is an animal who knows she probably ought to obey her handler (or at least not attempt to chase her off with pinned ears), but who chooses to “go there” and exert her power. I point this out because I think it’s important as well as safe and even fair or humane to let the 1,000-pounder know that I am in charge. We can have a a collaborative relationship where it’s kind of “from each according to abilities to each according to her needs” later. I’ll do things for a mare that keep her safe and her feeling successful in her work; she’ll keep me safe from things like cattle and other horses. But I must establish in her mind that she must consider me when the chips are down and she’d rather not do as I’m told. That’s just a matter of being safe. So I do need a strong mare’s respect. But I don’t need to pick on her daily to get that.

[anon81364900]

This is slightly different than taking an NSAID every now and then. Yes, I am sure that there are extreme cases where abnormal estrus affects the mare’s quality of life.

I suspect that’s not the case for the vast majority of the time. The mare’s hormones are being regulated in order to reduce bad behavior. Which is fine and dandy–I’m not saying Regumate is damaging to the horse. I’m just saying that everyone talks about it as if it’s medically necessary, like it’s a health condition that needs treatment.

Where I get twitchy about Regumate is that it carries serious health risks to humans. I would hope that the horse owner makes absolutely certain that anyone handling this drug is given real training and proper protective gear to do it safely. (Disposable latex gloves is not enough.) A BM and certainly low-paid barn staff should not have to risk their health to make client’s horses easier to manage.

[mvp]

Oh, an an anecdote from my experience with my snarly mare.

I don’t reward that. Yes, being a flight animal trapped in a phone booth-sized cage, she probably has a reason to be defensive. But, ffs’s, she has not ever been harmed in there and she has a much longer, deeper history of people feeding her there. So when I come to the door, I think she can manage a fake smile, even if it’s just a matter of politeness. And she is polite to me.

The farm owner, who likes her and treats her well, and handles her daily, accepts her snarls. Don’t get me wrong: This guy knows what he’s doing with horses. He has bred- and foaled out plenty. He grooms her every day and even taught her to kinda/sorta ground tie. But he has not held her to the standard that I do, so he’s her bitch and she extorts treats from him. Her ears are not back out of the stall, but she does put them back when he comes to the door of the stall.

I think he’s nuts and I have told him that he doesn’t have to accept that from her. He says they have their deal worked out. This is totally a “different strokes for different folks,” kind of thing. But it also says that you don’t have to accept impolite behavior. You can ask for better and get it without it taxing the mare too, too much.

[CanteringCarrot]

I’ve gotten along with mares, stallions, and geldings. It doesn’t matter to me. If I like the horse, I like the horse. I do find stallions and mares to be a bit more bold or brave, but could just be my personal experience.

I do have a huge weakness for pony mares. If I have a pony, it’s got to be a mare. I also find ponies to be comical, and am entertained by pony antics (I don’t let them know that, no need for performances). So clearly I’m a little off

I do believe that some mares might need some intervention when it comes to making them comfortable during a heat cycle. Especially when we expect them to work through it/perform with no change in behavior. I’m not sure what I’d do if I had a mare with issues relating to her cycling. Would depend on a few things. Case by case basis.

What really bugs me is this “I’m better than you” attitude because I don’t give my mare(s) regumate or anything else. That’s great that your sample size of mares doesn’t need this medication or anything else. Good for you. Or maybe it’s that you ignore pain? Who knows. Just stop being a snob about it. Don’t look down your nose at someone when they’re trying to do what they believe is best for the horse. What is the actual motivation behind this?

I’m no fan of giving horses meds or supplements that they don’t truly need, but understand that not every horse is the same.

[sascha]

@anon81364900

This is slightly different than taking an NSAID every now and then. Yes, I am sure that there are extreme cases where abnormal estrus affects the mare’s quality of life.

Also, much, much different than women with painful/irregular/debilitating periods being advised to go on the pill, right?

One thing I will say, sort of on your side, is that I think mare owners and vets are sometimes too quick to make a call on hormone therapy when perhaps there are other reasons for whacked out behaviours. Hands up who had a repro exam done, didn’t find anything terrible, but still went ahead with a Regumate trial because nothing ventured no knowledge gained and then figured out a few months later that most of the crazy stuff was due to improperly treated ulcers?

[fordtraktor]

Yes, exactly. I haven’t done Regumate but I would totally do it if I needed it to reduce my horse’s pain. In every other way we “look first for pain as the cause of misbehavior” but suddenly for this, a mare should just have to suck it up, buttercup? That’s a big old nope from me. And again, I have NEVER used this product.

I have an IUD because my own periods trigger migraines for me. Such pain is real and can be extremely uncomfortable.

The old “breed the mare” solution is a bad reason to bring a baby into the world if the mare isn’t breeding quality, plus who wants to lose a year and risk losing the mare? Breeding is dangerous.

I wouldn’t worry about the safety of the barn help because I am the barn help and I know how to follow protocols. I also agree that too often it is a “go to” for many people, and that it should be banned for geldings.

[candyappy]

For me it depends on what is behind the ear pinning. If she shows no aggression along with it then it merely may be she just prefers to be left alone when in the stall. If her eyes and mouth are threatening as well then it needs to be dealt with.

My mare does not liked to be girthed, never has. I have owned her since she was a weanling, started her at 3 1/2 and even with a perfectly fitted saddle she will pin her ears and give the evil eye at me while the girth is first done up. If I walk away and retighten, she doesn’t do anything ( crop or no crop).

It has been 13 years of this. If I hold a crop she won’t do it. She loves to be ridden and otherwise she is in my pocket and would climb in my lap if it was big enough. So I don’t yell or discipline her for it, I just hold my crop and we are fine.

I enjoy mares as much as geldings.

[Manni01]

I wonder how people can compare their pain to their horses potential pain… how do they know???

[CanteringCarrot]

It’s not necessarily that they know, it’s that they can see it and understand it as a realistic possibility.

It’s not totally far fetched to think ovaries could cause trouble in multiple organisms.

We also all have varying personal experiences that shape our views and feelings. It’s fine if you can’t relate or comprehend. You don’t have to.

[sascha]

If we can’t look at the physical signs our animals show us and figure out whether their physical or mental well-being needs attention, then we should not own animals. If we cannot look at an animal and imagine a similar pain, how are we to empathize and appropriately treat the issue?

The how can we know part was nicely illustrated for me recently. I have been poked in the eye before. I have had a sty. I get (admittedly minor) eye pain. My horse is somewhat prone to sticking various hazardous items into her own eyes and has suffered a few corneal ulcers. Nobody in the barn even needs to see her squinty, tearing eye to know she is in pain. I have literally had a 9 year old boy come grab me out of the feed room before I have made it to her stall. “Something’s wrong. She’s really angry! Maybe it’s her hay? Maybe she’s mad you’re late?” Nope, she only gets truly angry (ears back, miserable, not looking for attention) when she’s in pain. A couple of days of treatment and not only does the eye open back up but her whole demeanour changes.

This past week+ I’ve been dealing with an absolutely horrible corneal ulcer in a cow. The cow, who is not a pet by any means, has displayed the same basic “mood swings” as my horse does when she suffers a corneal ulcer.

Think of yourself when you suffer pain - anger/frustration/aggravation are all normal and they wane as your pain wanes. It’s really not crazy to compare our pain to theirs or one species to another.

[fordtraktor]

I gather this is because I said I get migraines from estrus issues. TMI but I also have excessive bleeding and pain issues you don’t want to know about and that make me anemic, resolved by progesterone. Mostly.

My personal anecdotes aside, veterinarians from top hospitals have been telling me for DECADES this is a real concern for mares, and that their cyclical behavior issues are pain related from this cause and it can be addressed and one can relieve the pain. Why would I NOT listen? I have no agenda, I just want my horses to not suffer, so they can enjoy our training sessions. I don’t use Regumate and never have. But is this really the hill to die on, that mares are never “mareish” because they hurt? Seriously?

[Gardenhorse]

That’s such a weird question. Does it hurt you to get poked in the eye? Do you think it would hurt your horse to get poked in the eye? Of course we can’t know for sure what the horse feels, but I don’t think it’s such a stretch to extrapolate that if women can feel pain/discomfort during their menstrual cycles, then horses might feel pain/discomfort during their estrus cycles.

[Manni01]

@Gardenhorse

Of course we can’t know for sure what the horse feels, but I don’t think it’s such a stretch to extrapolate that if women can feel pain/discomfort during their menstrual cycles, then horses might feel pain/discomfort during their estrus cycles.

Well, I for sure agree with the first part of the sentence and I think that says it all… I know that many people reflect themselves in their horses… And I understand that it is tricky to cut out this thinking…

[fordtraktor]

Or you could just rely on the thinking of qualified veterinarians. Just saying.

[Gardenhorse]

But you didn’t tell me whether you think it would hurt the horse if they get poked in the eye. I guess that’s probably just me reflecting myself in my horse again…

[shall]

You misunderstood me. My mare was, and is, an independent super power. She will listen to your requests. We were great partners, and now she is in a new home, teaching a young rider. She likes her people close by, and this home has that.

She’s an excellent communicator. At one point, I did have to point out that shaking her hind leg at me was rude, despite her need to make her point. Some nagging, visualizing hooves on the ground, and some (light) touching the cannon resolved the problem. She reads your mind, listens and speaks. What a partner!

[sascha]

No, that first part of the sentence doesn’t say it all.

What your statement says is that since you’re quite sure that we can’t possibly know what an animal is feeling/whether it’s similar to our pain, then we can say that humane treatment of animals is not necessary. The heck with listening to Dr. Grandin’s ideas on humane slaughter. Totally unnecessary. The heck with trying administering any sort of pain management to any animal because - totally unnecessary.

Clearly that is complete idiocy in this day and age where we actually understand that animals feel pain. Look at literally piles of research into dairy and beef cattle. There are findings that show that for pretty basic vet care, lack of pain killers to treat immediately and post-treatment will stunt a calf’s growth. Put the appropriate freezing and long lasting pain killers to that calf and there will be no blip in its growth chart.

This isn’t frou frou stuff made up by housewives having lunch and dreaming of riding horses. This is science. It is that simple.

It is not necessary to “cut out this thinking” at all. It is quite the opposite. We need to delve further into measuring animal’s pain and when we do, comparing it to our own pain will give us the empathy to treat the animal humanely.

[SharonA1]

“Are mares really worth it?”

Yes.

[QovDressage]

Thank you for this reply. Some of these posters, would you have the balls to be so rude and judgmental in person? I think not. Get over yourselves.

[Hippolyta]

I am not sure comparisons to human menstrual pain is relevant here. Horses have an estrus cycle, not a menstrual cycle.

Much of human menstrual pain is due to prostaglandins that are released when the blood vessels that supply the deciduous layer of the endometrium die off. It may also be caused be edema and water retention, which can also activate pain receptors. Beside prostaglandins directly activating pain receptors (including those in distant location), they create contractions, and there are often large clumps of tissue (blood) that also create contractions and cramping. There may also be human pain around ovulation for many reasons, but that isn’t the same as menstrual pain. Ovulation typically (but not always) occurs well before menses.

Horses do not have a large, fluffy deciduous layer supplied by lots of arteries. They are not experiencing the waves of prostaglandins, smooth muscle contractions, etc, that humans do. There may be pain around ovulation, but this would mean that behavior changes due to ovulation pain would be cyclical, not constant.

Yes, there may be ovarian related pain that isn’t cyclical due to, for example, adhesions or cysts that occur outside of the cycle. Regumate would not help with many of these issues, but you would expect that removing the ovaries would.

However, if such a large number of oophorectomies fail to change behavior issues, this can tell us that often it was not ‘hormonal’ nor due to the ovary-related pain, and that the real source of problem was overlooked b/c of the bias that every issue any female has is somehow related to our/their lady parts. They don’t even look.

This is similar to happens to women who are anemic, as a simple example. Unless you have excessive blood loss during periods, regular menstruation does not leave you anemic. However, the response to a low hematocrit in any women in her reproductive yrs is to just throw iron at them, b/c surely menstruation is always the issue. There isn’t even an attempt to find the underlying cause. I could go on with so many other examples. These biases have been identified in human medicine, I have little doubt that it also affects veterinary medicine.

How many times have you heard women say they are “PMSing” ? This refers to PRE menstrual symptoms, which may include cognitive and emotional components, but they have to end by the second day of menses to truly be PRE menstrual syndrome. PMS didn’t really exist in the public sphere until the 1980s. It is a real condition, but it is not as prevalent as it is assumed, and there are many good arguments, i[ncluding some studies] more (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953699000799), that it may be a socially constructed disease (for some). Most ppl assume it coincides with menses, when it does not. There are even calendar apps with little devils that show up during menses. WTF?