Art Deco babies- personality?

[Altamont_Sport_Horse]

I don’t necessarily believe it.

For whatever it is worth I just want to say that when I read threads like this I do NOT automatically believe it is the stallion causing his offspring to have a difficult temperment. I realize that the mare, the upbringing and the training have a large part to do with it. Moreover, many people out there are breeding their difficult mares to stallions who are known to have good temperments in hopes of producing a foal with a more even keeled temperment…it just doesn’t always work. While a certain stallion may produce plenty of good minded babies in the beginning and become known for that it would be conceivable that later there will be more “challenging” offspring coming along because the word got out that the stallion does have a good temperment and more mares with questionable temperments were bred to him in hopes of producing a foal with a better temperment. I hope that other people stop to think about these variables as well.

I also don’t necessarily believe the issue with feet. I do believe, however, that genetically a horse may be more likely to grow more heel than toe and vice versa. I’ve see it on my own farm. If not properly trimmed (farrier-factor), and from a young age (owner-factor), this can go wrong and result in a very upright foot which cannot be corrected after a certain point. There are A LOT Of poor quality farriers out there who probably aren’t doing these young horses any favors.

I also want to add that I have never had the pleasure of meeting an Art Deco offspring in person. I’ve always wanted to though. Are there some in the Birmingham, AL area that are out and doing things that I might be able to see them locally?

[ljshorses]

None of the 3 we’ve had here had bad feet and I am a farrier that does corrective shoeing. Not sure where the foot thing came from, that’s the first I ever heard anyone saying they had bad feet…hmm,again, could the mare have had bad feet in those cases or as stated, could there been bad farrier work? I know a lot of farriers out there are not qualified to do babies. I know this because I use to have to go out and try and fix what they screwed up. Doing babies feet is different than an adult and someone familiar with a young horses growth should be the one doing it’s feet.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I have a mare by Art Deco who is very similar to the horses described by the earlier posters (beautiful, athletic, sweet and loving–on the ground–a talented, powerful jumper, brave, sensible in stressful conditions, and an awesome competitor…HOWEVER, she is spooky, hyper-vigilant and hyper-reactive, and has to make almost every ride a challenge (at HOME! only, where she is “Supreme Alpha” over all the other horses–not at competitions, where she defers to me, and is at worst, fussy and distractible–but performs well consistently…though I have to carefully manage her warmups, since she freaks out when other horses get too close to Her Majesty :rolleyes:)

She will be absolutely lovely on the ground: relaxed, calm, submissive, sensitive (in a good way), sweet, and eager to please. Her ground work (which I’ve done a lot of) is wonderful; a dream! However, the instant I throw a leg over, she’s all of a sudden in “WHAT THE HELL IS THAT???” mode, spooking at the mounting block, jump standard, barrel, human, car, leaf, cat, other horse, etc., etc., that not only has she seen 100+ times, but that she had ignored completely not 10 seconds previously. :sigh: Spooking in a very melodramatic fashion, mini-bolting, pop rearing when corrected, etc…Luckily I have quick reflexes, and am able to correct her, stop her, bend her, displace her hindquarters, and put her in a “head down time out”, which I have developed as a response to her constant testing and “faux spooking” behavior…(It seems to calm her down and re-focus her, as well as serving as a correction; as another poster mentioned, I am constantly working on getting her to “tap into her thinking brain”, and override her reactive brain. Over the years, she has progressed slowly in terms of “seeming to get the picture”, and now knows to shape up when I verbally correct her, though I continually have to “remind” her that she’s not in charge…it’s quite emotionally exhausting, at times!)

In competitions, though she can be a bit of a trial in dressage (tense, holds her back, want to look around), she is a dream to jump (and I have taken a LOT of time; she’s ready to go Prelim in eventing in a couple months, with LOTS of preparation–and has talent out the wazoo), and I never doubt her; she’s a fantastic partner…

And she’s my heart…:sigh: A total love, licks you like a dog, is SO expressive…

Plus, she has fantastic feet, and has NEVER been shod! She’s 10, and if I can run her Prelim without shoes (being careful with the venues, and scratching if it’s too slick), I don’t see a reason to shoe her, since she has excellent (4WD-worthy) traction–in all conditions.

Needless to say, I have mixed feelings, but relate to most or all the previous posts; this mare has a home for life with me (I am a lower-level pro, and readily admit that she is SO not an ammy ride! :eek: She’s lucky I have her, because otherwise she would have scared someone–badly–and would be in a broodmare band, instead of fulfilling her potential ;))

ETA: she has a very strong will, but luckily, so do I…:winkgrin:

(And I don’t know about the dam, who was a TB…but in terms of the influence of early training, when I got the mare at 5, she had just had a couple of months of real training U/S (and hadn’t been shown or jumped or exposed to new stimuli), so I did the vast majority of training and exposure, introduced her to ground exercises and TTEAM stuff, walked her over terrain in hand, started her over fences, and REALLY took my time…which I believe in doing in any case, regardless of the horse! :yes:)

[Kingland_Farm]

I am not a breeder but have had many experiences with Art Deco and his offspring. In defense of Deco, I think one must consider the extreme number of mares that he has covered. The mare’s temperament and trainability should be considered, and then of course, the training and handling of the individual offspring. I’m sorry that his reputation as a sire has been attacked.

[sketcher]

The horses I have had with Deco breeding have all had FABULOUS feet.

[Signature]

Likewise, each one we’ve had has had fantastic feet, big, solid, well-proportioned. Also they were fantastic on the ground… makes me wonder when a horse is that quiet on the ground but nutty u/s if it’s not a rider’s fault somewhere along the way. In the case of one we had, she was most definitely “fried” as a youngster, we were told later. Each of the mares just seem to have that sensitive way about them where with the wrong rider it could go south, but with the right rider they were great! Honestly that’s kind of true with most mares however. I have seen an equal proportion of mares that were sensitive and easy offended that were not AD so it may be more a mare thing than anything.

[MissCapitalSplash]

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences. I love my boy very much. He is a gem from the ground and over fences, but lacks focus on the flat. He is NOT spooky or looky at his surroundings, he is just over-reactive and sensitive.
You can trail ride on a long rein all day, but try to put him to work in the ring and he acts as if you are trying to kill him. I think he would benefit from some desensitization exercises.
He has good feet, but a little upright. He’s been barefoot all along and is 100%, so I’d say he has good feet!
And he’s lovely to look at, and kind, but just a worrywart!!
Sounds like they might mature late, so I’ll stick it out with him and see what we can do!

[goodmorning]

At a previous barn we had an Art Deco baby. He had wonderful feet (was barefoot I think?), but had a nasty spook. Wonderful ground manners, and if things didn’t offend him, a child could ride him (so not what I would consider over-reactive), but his spook was something else. He was an absolute love though, great personality and loved people. Very attractive though.

If it makes you feel better, his owner also had many ups and downs with him. She put him in training, he was being ridden twice a day by the trainer, and this really helped his maturity. Once he learned that the rider is what he should be paying attention too, his spooking decreased. He just has one of those brains that is constantly working, and if it wasn’t occupied, then he’d get spooky. But he wasn’t a difficult ride, not terribly over-reactive, just late to mature.

[Auventera_Two]

I worked with an AD mare for 6 wks on request of her owner who basically could do nothing with her. She was an extremely sweet mare but ohhhhh so sensitive and hot. She was terrified of her own shadow. She would try to jump the shadows made by power lines on the grass then stand on the other side and shake and sweat. The poor thing. I felt so sorry for her.

But she’s now owned by a young girl who does ok with her. She’s had some falls off her and the mare has been with a pro trainer for I don’t know how long, but they are finally making progress. She said the mare could spook so big and literally over nothing - or over something she’s seen a hundred times already. Very unpredictable.

I had a breeding opportunity and passed it up aftering thinking long and hard. There is definitely something with these AD horses where the person upstairs just checks out and you realize there ain’t nobody home in that head. It was really frustrating with that mare. I’ve heard this same thing many times before and I finally got to experience it for myself and realized people really weren’t kidding. Unfortunately.

[Sonesta]

I’ve had experience with only a few AD babies. Two fine; one not so much. But I think it is very important to remember that AD was one of the earliest of the colored stallions. MANY MANY (hundreds!) people bred their mares to him - good mares and bad mares. And these early mares were a lot of OTTB mares. Many (maybe even most) of these silly-minded ones and bad footed ones likely came from silly-minded or bad-footed mares.

[Tantivy1]

I have not had any myself but a very experienced (and conservative) professional that I know of has warned me never to touch one as they are hot and it is not from the dams. When I see so many postings that also warn of ADs being hot I would question if there are that many “hot” mares out there being sent to a “quiet” stallion…(as mentioned by those with quiet ADs) and that the hotness factor is therefore attritutable to the mares…not likely in my book.

[Oakstable]

Samber is known for an exceptional temperament.

My filly was out of a OTTB and she got the Samber genes.

[Sonesta]

Tantivy1, I would say that in the early days of wb breeding (and to an extent, even now) there was an attitude with mare owners of “Well, she’s too hot (or unsound) to ride, so let’s breed her.”

If AD had only a limited number of offspring and their was a high percentage of “hot” ones, I’d blame him. But this guys got hundreds out there. He was (is?) a very popular stallion that may well have been used unwisely at times.

Another that falls into this category is Diamont. He was an early Hanoverian stallion here in the U.S. He had a fabulous laid back temperament (I met him), but was bred to hundreds of mares. Some of those turned out to be difficult and Diamont got blamed for it. Seems you mostly hear about the difficult ones.

I have had several Diamonts and absolutely loved them (I have two still!). But still the rumor persists.

It’s just not fair when there are always TWO parents and the dam has so much more influence (passing on her attitudes while raising the foal).

[Auventera_Two]

@Tantivy1;3292517

I have not had any myself but a very experienced (and conservative) professional that I know of has warned me never to touch one as they are hot and it is not from the dams. When I see so many postings that also warn of ADs being hot I would question if there are that many “hot” mares out there being sent to a “quiet” stallion…(as mentioned by those with quiet ADs) and that the hotness factor is therefore attritutable to the mares…not likely in my book.

The dam of the horse I posted about is a laid back trail horse who was used in a kid’s lesson program from the time she was broken out as a youngster. She’s produced other foals from other stallions - one of them being a gelding who is also a laid back trail horse - just turned 4. I just rode with him yesterday. We took him swimming for the first time. But that filly of hers was definitely different. Different in so much as she was so scared of everything. She would bolt through gates and shy away from her own leadrope.

The owner ended up putting her with a trainer to try to get this out of her and he did some things in the way of “sacking out” in the round pen that only made her worse. Then I got her and spent 6 weeks doing only ground work teaching her that the leadrope clipped to her halter, which had been clipped to her halter 10,000 times over the last 5 years of her life, was not going to hurt her. She was 5 when she was at my house.

Some days she would react badly when she saw the dog. She would spook big and bolt and nearly rip me right off my feet. Then the next day, she wouldn’t even flick an ear at him. You never knew what would set her off. One day I was picking a manure pile out of her stall and barely bumped the bottom of her hoof with one tine on the fork. She leapt up in the air and bolted right into the stall wall, hitting her head and then stood there white eyed and shaking. It took me 5 minutes to even be able to get close enough to touch her and calm her down. She reacted as if I’d just lit off some dynamite under her belly.

But she was SO very very sweet. She loved to kiss and snuggle on people. I spent a lot of time every day just grooming her and bonding. She seemed to need emotional security and constant reassurance.

I’ve seen really nice babies come out of teribbly behaved mares because the stallion overrode those tendencies. I think a lot does come from the stallion, though certainly the mare and the environment are a big part also.

[DownYonder]

That is so true that the stallion always gets blamed. I watched a perfect example at an Oldenburg inspection a few years ago. One of the fillies there was a perfect little B**** - kicking at her mother, kicking at her handlers, pinning her ears, etc. I heard several people watching say, “Well, if that is indicative of what that stallion is producing, there is no way I will ever use him.”

Funny thing is, the dam wasn’t exactly all sweetness and light either. She managed to make it through the inspection without being too rank, but I saw her in the stable area afterwards and she was pinning her ears at her people, charging at them with bared teeth, and threatening them with a cocked leg if they tried to come into her stall while she was eating. And she was a total bully when they were trying to load her on the trailer to go home.

The stallion in question is a big sweetie and I don’t know of anyone else who has reported difficult temperaments in his offspring. In fact, I know several amateur riders who have started his offspring under saddle BY THEMSELVES.

Auventera Two - did you try magnesium supplements on that mare? We have found that many very nervous, excitable young mares benefit greatly from increased magnesium in the diet (Quiessence, etc.).

[Auventera_Two]

DY - that’s a very good point you make. The mare DEFINITELY has a major bearing on what the baby is! My point with this particular young mare is that her dam is NOT a heifer at all. She’s a sweet old trail horse who gives pony rides and was a kids lesson horse. I’ve ridden her many many times on the trails. She is not rank, ill-behaved, spooky, or stupid in any way. And neither are her other babies. Only her AD foal was that hot and over-sensitive/over-reactive. And that baby wasn’t raised any differently than the others were.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

About 50% of my inquiries for Nevada are from people with hotter or b*tchy mares that the owner wants to calm down. He does do an excellent job, but there will always be horses that get mom’s attitude. Luckily, if a horse has talent too, they will usually find their way into a better rider’s barn that can deal with the sensitivity/hotness.

Several years ago, I was contacted by a breeder in New England that had a Nevada filly. She was wanting to sell her because the filly was way too much for her to deal with. She told me she had a lovely sweet, easy mare. Fast forward, she donated the Nevada filly to a university, who sold her to someone, and she ended up as a 5-6 year old boarding in my barn. She is a phenominal athlete, but a moody and dominant mare that will control you if you let her. The college girl that bought her does a super job with her. I called her old owner to tell her that NOW I understand what she was talking about. She told me she really wanted to appoligize to me, because that the previous winter, she had run into her mare’s old owner. She asked about the crazy btch of a mare. She said she would have NEVER let kids any where near that mare as she was dangerous. The Nevada filly’s breeder said she had let her kids climb all over her, and she was always easy. Maybe a few more years will settle the Nevada filly down like her mom did, but her new owner is hoping not. She is actually a lovely ride, but a "btch on the ground.

[ljshorses]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3292627]
DY - that’s a very good point you make. The mare DEFINITELY has a major bearing on what the baby is! My point with this particular young mare is that her dam is NOT a heifer at all. She’s a sweet old trail horse who gives pony rides and was a kids lesson horse. I’ve ridden her many many times on the trails. She is not rank, ill-behaved, spooky, or stupid in any way. And neither are her other babies. Only her AD foal was that hot and over-sensitive/over-reactive. And that baby wasn’t raised any differently than the others were. [/QUOTE]

Yes, but what about the dam’s sire or her dam…geez, genetics is a crapshoot everytime, does anyone realize how much goes into making a baby. And why is it a few “bad” apples ruin the whole bunch. My Decos have all been EASY. Not spooky and beautiful. I am breeding again to him next year. Ask pintofoal how many mares a year are bred to this great old guy. What do you think the percentage of “bad” apples is? I bet it is much lower than you think. You don’t always hear about the “good” ones, but boy do you hear about the “bad” ones. I know of an Art Deco mare owned by a veterinarian near me that foxhunts regularly and has an excellent temperament. He, based on his experience with her over many years, has bred to Art Deco many times and has never been disappointed. They don’t end up in the show ring though so many trainers aren’t seeing them I guess. They end up on the hunt field as solid, unflappable and BRAVE mounts. People, look at the WHOLE picture and don’t listen to people that have had a BAD experience, check it out for yourself when you are considering a horse. One “bad” apple in a huge bunch of “good” ones shouldn’t mar the whole bunch. Let’s also not forget what early and improper training can do to a sensitive animal. Sensitive horses are fantastic when raised properly (it’s what I prefer to ride) but when raised improperly or trained incorrectly many bad things can result.

[Giddy-up]

@pintofoal;3289858

Indian Art http://www.indianartstud.com/Homepg.htm has an impressive resume at the young age of 9.

I have had the treat of riding Indy (his owner is incredibly generous) & seeing him on a regular basis. He is very nice. :yes:

[Esprit]

I adore my Art Deco’s…

I have bred my mare to him twice and with the exception of their markings and height, I got pretty much identical horses, beautiful temperaments, excellent conformation and movement and attitudes.

Both were very easy to start and quick learners, not a sensitive ride but they do listen to your aids!

So much depends on the mare, I feel bad when a stallion gets pegged with having difficult offspring - when the mare has so much to do with it as well. I’m sure there are good ones and bad ones. But I would breed a mare back to him in a heartbeat - he throws a beautiful head too - with my mare he did.