Here is an update. I switched his bit from the loose ring KK snaffle to the Myler wide comfort barrel dressage legal snaffle with Dee rings. I loosened the crank noseband to a fit more similar to that of his jumping bridle.
WOW. What a DIFFERENCE! He is happy, quiet in his head, and in the bridle, reaching for the contact.
Is he still sensitive? Yes, but I think thats just how he is.
I’m remembering why I fell in love with this horse. I think he is just a thinker with a huge heart and he worries when he isn’t doing the right thing.
I think we are well on our way to a great partnership.
I don’t think he will ever be a dumb, dull horse. He will always be hot and sensitive, but I think that if I try to be understanding of it it will really work to my advantage when I have a keen, agile horse.
Trainer rode him yesterday and she adores him. She had never sat on him. She said he has serious upper level potential and that he is a thinker, but not in a bad way.
I understand Liz’s point of view, she is a sweet lady and passionate about her horses and it would be a shame if she doesn’t come back to the board.
You know, I haven’t heard of one stallion that a bad “trait” hasn’t been mentioned. You have to look at the whole pic and do some investigating before you breed. If I had the pocket book, I would travel and see the horse in person and at least 5 get. I have bred to some outside stallions that I wish I wouldn’t of after the foal has arrived, but still love them and they find happy homes. But, it isn’t always the stallions fault—just how things crossed. I have a colt right now that is outstanding, but not what I want to keep around because he has way more energy than I like. His dam, is quiet—but sensitive. I think the stallion is known to be hot (but not throw it–from what I’m told–NOW—was never told that then–sigh), and the cross was too much for ME. Now, I have friends that really like his “hottness”, different strokes for different folks. I have a colt who I consider too refined, but others really liked him and he sold fast. The stallion that sired the refined colt is NOT refined and the dam is far from refined—so, don’t know what happened there. Anyway, it is not the horses fault—on either case—it was mine for not doing MORE research and going to see them in person and their foals in person.
That is a wonderful update. With a hot, sensitive horse it’s about keeping them happy. They are usually worriers, and very smart. It is very hard to breed something with all the talent but numb quiet and robotic… keep up the good work!! I personally like a more sensitive, more forward horse. It could be that AD is consistently passing along a lot of talent, and with that does not come the plod mentality.
OP, I’m very glad the bridle change made such a positive difference! Your reflection on your guy reminds me a lot of the ones I have interacted with.
I admit I didn’t come on here with a butterfly and roses post about AD, just my personal opinion. I’ve read through all the posts on here and not seen one person that I thought was being mean, snarky, or spiteful. Just some honest opinions good and bad presented in a professional manner.
I don’t know why the AD posts always go south with folks really getting upset about the negative posts. I have a Mr. P AND a Storm Cat, and a Mr. P/Storm Cat x and I could tell you how many posts come up over and over and over about how terrible these stallions are, and all SCs are mean and spiteful and Mr Ps all have crooked legs, blah blah. All of mine are 100% correct, with wonderful heads. There are a ton of people on these boards with wonderful Mr Ps and SCs but yet nobody seems to get as offended as people do when some well presented negatives come out about AD. Why is that?
Same with Riverman, and others, nobody seems to get upset by the pro/con discussions on those. Why do people get so upset when somebody mentions they have, know, have ridden and AD that was opinionated?
Anyway, I’m happy the OP had great progress, but I’ll continue to be perplexed at why frank discussions can occur on most stallions without hurt feelings, but not this one.
I have to admit that it puzzles me, also. I haven’t seen one mean or snarky negative post, just people telling what their foals by Art Deco are like. The negatives are as important as the positives to those who are thinking of breeding.
Bottom line is that you are selling a product, just like eveyone else in business. You are going to hear negative and positive comments about every product out there. It’s a good thing, if you have a good product, because the positives will outweigh the negatives. Word of mouth is one of the strongest advertising tools around, and nothing beats asking others what their experience has been.
You might as well get used to people talking to your stallion, whoever he may be, because it is going to happen. And, certainly, word of mouth doesn’t seem to have hurt Art Deco’s marketability.
First I want to say thanks for the compliments on my horse, he really is the most perfect match for me. And there I think is a very important point that has been brought up. Certain people like certain things, I for one am not a TB owner, waaaaaaaay too sensitive for me, still when I kick I want a response and that is how my AD horse is so it’s perfect for me. For as much as I love him and have nothing but good things to say, it is my story. I think it’s fair that everyone be able to tell “their” story even if it isn’t what someone wants to hear, we all have our own individual experiences. Like I said, I was warned about the temperment but I chose to go with my gut that told me this was the absolute horse for me and I have never regretted it a day in my life. BUT I didn’t breed him, I bought him as is, I knew exactly what I was getting, breeding IS a crap shoot. That said, I recently purchased an app yearling colt that I plan on keeping a stallion so all of a sudden the topic is interesting to me. :eek::eek::eek:
Fairview – please don’t take this personally – my comments aren’t directed that way – but what you said about “stereotyping” a stallion is what many people might think this thread is doing, but I disagree.
People need to realize that ANY stallion who has bred a sizeable number of mares is going to have some variety in ALL things: ability, color, size, temperament. THAT IS BREEDING! If it was a consistant deal it would be real easy. We’d all breed Poetin to Rubinstein every year (and yes, I know they are both deceased – just making a point) and have the world’s best dressage foal over and over again. THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS!
For all you MO’s out there who think the stallion can fix anything, you need to be more realistic. All this stuff people say about their stallions and what they produce are generalizations, NOT absolutes. My goodness, I have a mare by Weltmeyer o/o a Bolero granddaughter (well-known excellent nick) who is a complete disaster and has been since the day she was born.
Breeding isn’t mixing white + black = grey. It is NOT predictable.
And anyone with abit of sense realizes the stallion is just one part of the equation. Neophyte breeders/MOs need to get real about this too.
That being said, I do not consider it “trashing” to share real, true experiences of horses sired by / or of the same line as a certain stallion. In this day and age where many MOs never see the actual stallion, it’s nice to have that feedback.
I saw AD once and he was a very well-behaved, charming guy. I bred one mare to him, but sold the mare while she was still in foal. I understand the resulting colt was rather forceful and alpha, but the mare was abit like that as well.
I got her as a 4 yr. old and never had a problem with her, but some of my “not-so-horsey” friends did! Nothing mean or aggressive – she just “out-thought” them. Well, personally I don’t blame a horse for this…while it IS nice to be smarter than the horse, it doesn’t always work that way. So I don’t know if I could blame Deco for the foal’s attitude.
Hopefully no one is so base as to be making up stories, so I see nothing wrong with sharing experiences. Stallion owners need to suck it up – when you put “your boy” out there, you are putting a product out there, pure and simple.
What is happening in this thread is no different than comparing saddles, soap or any other “product.”
But for gawd’s sake, MOs – listen up: anyone who has been breeding for afew years will tell you it is FULL of surprises! So if you have your heart set on a certain type of horse, you are FAR better off buying then breeding. And, in the end, I doubt if it will cost you much more.
Since Art Deco was/is one of the America’s most used WB stallions, I’m sure he’s produced all types of horses, since it stands to reason he’s bred all types of mares (in fact, I’d be curious to know exactly how many foals he has produced). The fact that people have been coming back to him year after year for 15-20 yrs. show he really has nothing to prove on terms of his value as a breeding stallion. ANYONE would agree his “hits” far outnumber his “misses.”
I agree that there is always going to be a range. I don’t like to see people jumping on to label a bloodline though. I am totally fine with saying a specific horse had these traits, etc. This topic is clearly not just my horse is like this and he is by Art Deco, but TITLED: Art Deco babies - personality? Responses to that are more labeling him, than “what some of his offspring may be like”. IMO
MANY people discount environment way too much. My best producing mare is incredibly easy going, and her Nevada babies have been so Amateur friendly. Tahoe is an exception. He may be one of the best of the crosses talent-wise, so is the exception genes?
Around my barn, he is labeled sensitive and spooky, but other people come to ride him and say how wonderful he is. Right now I have a young lady from Findlay riding him. She loved him, and got off and said he was so much easier than I told her he would be. She wanted a project for the summer. :yes: :yes: <nope, you guys can’t have her :winkgrin: >
OK, but our USUAL is don’t ride for 2 months, and anyone can hop on the 3 year old. If you don’t work Tahoe for 2 months, you have to lunge him first. If he passes a jump that has fallen over, he will drift sideways and ruin a wonderful lengthening. Spooky, but it is not like he jumps sideways, more annoying. Still we label him. So does Nevada get labeled for siring sensitive and spooky?
Did it come from the genes? Doubtful. Tahoe was almost 5 when we broke him. He had been in the baby run-in shed for 4 1/2 years. This entire time, he was with a gelding that was 4 years older, and VERY mother henish. They became inseparable. When we gelded Tahoe, the gelding screaming brought Tahoe up from anesthesia to answer his “mom’s” demand to get over here! My farrier had to jump on his head.
When we broke Tahoe, he was super easy and nothing bothered him. The gelding would try to bolt across Tahoe’s reins on the way across the pasture to the arena. He was SO upset that we were taking Tahoe. Tahoe could not have cared less, but he knew where he was, watching out for him. A few months later, the gelding left the property. Tahoe became very insecure. His “uncle” was no longer “watching his back”. That is when the sensitivity and spookiness really began. He needs a leader. If a confident rider takes him on a trail, he will lead the group past things that VERY experienced trail horses balk at.
So we call him sensitive, but it really is that he demands that his tack be comfortable. The rest, you can get away with reasonably ok. If you ride him in a girth that bothers him, you will feel like he has a horsefly on his butt, and any second he could let loose. Ride him at least once a week, and no lungeing needed. He also becomes more strange tack tolerant.
Tahoe is a good example of labeling, labeling incorrectly, giving a horse a problem reputation, and possibly even the cause of labeling his sire or dam, over what I believe is environment.
WE attached him to the other horse, and WE only get him worked/ridden 30 times a year. WE caused/are causing his labeling.
As has been said, the stallion and the mare both contribute. BUT, when you have so many diverse mares producing so many babies and, from what people here are saying based on their personal experiences, many of these offspring are hot/spooky/etc. What is the common denominator? The stallion.
I personally have not dealt with any AD offspring. I know several experienced horsepeople who have and whom I respect. Unfortunately, their opinion reflects the majority opinion posted here: the babies have something about them that makes many of them “difficult”.
I always thought AD was a beautiful horse, regardless of colour. And he gets MAJOR kudos for actually being a performance horse himself, which certain other colour breeders cannot say. His colour is the icing on the cake, and not the cake itself.
[QUOTE=creseida;3307353]
As has been said, the stallion and the mare both contribute. BUT, when you have so many diverse mares producing so many babies and, from what people here are saying based on their personal experiences, many of these offspring are hot/spooky/etc. What is the common denominator? The stallion.
I personally have not dealt with any AD offspring. I know several experienced horsepeople who have and whom I respect. Unfortunately, their opinion reflects the majority opinion posted here: the babies have something about them that makes many of them “difficult”.
I always thought AD was a beautiful horse, regardless of colour. And he gets MAJOR kudos for actually being a performance horse himself, which certain other colour breeders cannot say. His colour is the icing on the cake, and not the cake itself.[/QUOTE]
Not to keep this going on forever, but I think there was as many if not more saying how good their Decos were including me out of a variety of mares. How many is a lot? I saw a lot saying great things. I saw a few saying negative things…that’s pretty much the same for all horses, everyone views things somewhat differently. My personal experience has been good, so have many others I know that didn’t happen to post on this thread.
I have two horses by Art Deco. A six year old mare and a 4 year old gelding out of a Trakehner mare by Hailo. I would not trade either of them for the world. They are the sweetest, most loveable horses. If you are in the barn and they are there too, they want your attention. Please note that they both had lovely dams. They are both young and can be a little stubborn, but they don’t have a mean bone in them. They are both very naturally talented in dressage and jumping. They are really more laid back and not really hot at all. My mare obtained her premium status at her mare inspection and her first foal, a colt, was high score foal at his inspection at Pennock Point.
I have been riding an Art Deco mare for my lessons for the past few months now. At first I wasn’t a huge fan, now I love her! I became so obsessed with her that my parents got her for me for Christmas! As for personality on the ground, she is like a big (17.2 hh) lapdog! She is a gentle giant and nothing but a big sweetheart! As for riding, she can get a little excited before jumps or ground poles. Even if the jumps are only 18 inches she gets very excited. The strange thing is she only acts that way during group lessons. If I am having a private lesson she is fine. She also can’t handle being behind another horse. I’m trying to get her used to it so I’ll just ride her behind other horses, but sometimes she’s not so happy about it. My horse is amazing at jumping 2’6 and higher. She is just naturally better at higher jumps because of how big she is. As for dressage, she has an amazing trot to sit! Even though hey stride is very big, if you
Keep her collected she is great! She seems to be a master in the dressage ring and she is flawless when it comes to that so no complaints there whatsoever! I know Art Deco is dead now, but I would deffinately suggest adopting one of his offspring if you’re thinking about it, especially if you are looking for a horse with dressage in their blood!
I have a colt who I consider too refined, but others really liked him and he sold fast. The stallion that sired the refined colt is NOT refined and the dam is far from refined—so, don’t know what happened there. Anyway, it is not the horses fault—on either case—it was mine for not doing MORE research and going to see them in person and their foals in person.