To the OP: I’d start doing a very laid-back routine with flatwork. At least 5 minutes of walking on the buckle, then start into work gradually: pick up the reins, trot a half circle, walk, then let the horse stretch the reins, repeat. I have a hot Half Arabian who does the most obnoxious head slinging when she gets frustrated. This sort of laid-back warm-up has eliminated that problem for now. Also, if you can get someone to help give you directions when you ride: giving you instructions on when to walk, change directions, canter. It doesn’t have to be a formal lesson. It may sound silly, but when you don’t have to think about what you are doing next, you can concentrate on the horse. Having someone do that has helped me and my horse a lot and diffuses the frustration.
I would like to take credit for a suggestion, but this is someone else’s. 
If I go back and review the original post, I would question the training method on the flat. He is wonderful on the ground and o/f but hates dressage? From what I have seen this is usually a case of the horse not being ridden forward enough, and or over bent. Go back to basics, and ride forward and STRAIGHT.
I am reminded of a thread about horses with a longer neck for dressage. A very knowledgeable dressage rider posted that to ride them you have to ride with a lot, A LOT, a LOT of tact. Longer necked horses take good riding to keep their necks long, but some people are not comfortable with what feels like the lack of control (head, neck and shoulders). They shorten the reins to shorten the neck and stop the wiggly/looseness. This generally makes horses p*ssed off, even easy going ones.
This is why it is suggested that a shorter neck is better for dressage. Personally, I would rather have a lovely neck and teach the rider how to ride them.
[QUOTE=Firstclassmare;3294286]
Oh I hear you, I had a friend who bred their mare. She was not only a quiet trail pony but was a therapeutic riding horse that safely carried handicapped people who were deaf, dumb and blind… As a matter of fact she is literally a saint, she was even anointed by the Pope for her good and saintly deeds.
Well, then came the day that they bred her to the devil horse and what did she produce but, the “devil seed”. Not only was the foal evil, but it changed that beloved saint of a mare into a trolip. She and that evil spawn of hers now can be found breaking out of their paddocks, spooking themselves all the way into the city. They have been found there either panhandling or hooking on the corners. They are over reactive and dangerous, sometimes they even go looking for ammy owners to scare and mug in dark alleys.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha ha ha!
Thank you this post made my day. I’m considering a purchase of a Jazz gelding and reading similar threads (in dutch no less; the google translation is hysterical) regarding stallions. Thanks!
Liz, where in my post did I say word one about YOU dissing mare owners? No. freaking. Where. Although I will point out here, in this post, that you and many others were blaming the mares.
It was a general observation about stallion owners. It happened to be on a thread about your stallion. If it’ll make you happier, I’ll post the same sentiment on every other thread where people ask about stallions and someone says something not glowing and then everyone piles on that person and blames the mares.
I know that AD is important to your life and livelihood. My mares are very important to me. As I said in the earlier post you attacked, I have no doubt that there are ADs out there doing well, it was just not my experience with the foals I had by him and one of his sons. And since our foals are all raised the same way every time, every year and the only ones who turned out to be hot and spooky and not successful … well, as I said, breeding’s a crapshoot.
But I honestly do think that when something comes up again and again – about any stallion, any bloodline – then maybe there’s something to it. People knew that Mr. Prospector threw certain undesirable traits, as did Storm Cat. Sure didn’t hurt those horses’ reputations and book, did it?
[QUOTE=Beezer;3298423]
Liz, where in my post did I say word one about YOU dissing mare owners? No. freaking. Where. Although I will point out here, in this post, that you and many others were blaming the mares.
It was a general observation about stallion owners. It happened to be on a thread about your stallion. If it’ll make you happier, I’ll post the same sentiment on every other thread where people ask about stallions and someone says something not glowing and then everyone piles on that person and blames the mares.
I know that AD is important to your life and livelihood. My mares are very important to me. As I said in the earlier post you attacked, I have no doubt that there are ADs out there doing well, it was just not my experience with the foals I had by him and one of his sons. And since our foals are all raised the same way every time, every year and the only ones who turned out to be hot and spooky and not successful … well, as I said, breeding’s a crapshoot.
But I honestly do think that when something comes up again and again – about any stallion, any bloodline – then maybe there’s something to it. People knew that Mr. Prospector threw certain undesirable traits, as did Storm Cat. Sure didn’t hurt those horses’ reputations and book, did it?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone personally blamed the mare, they (including myself) stated that there is more to what goes into making a horse than just the stallion. And I don’t think anyone said he didn’t tend to throw sensitivity and extreme intelligence, but as I said before…sensitivity and intelligence crossed with bad tempers can cause problems. Also sensitive and intelligent horses are easier to mess up in the wrong hands. One or two bad ones doesn’t say this stallion throws bad ones. It does however mar an excellent sire’s reputation. Any blanket thoughtless statement as that is wrong and hurtful. No different than saying ALL red headed people are ill tempered. Or my favorite stupid thing…all chestnut mares are crazy…geez, grouping them all in one stereotyped lot is an uneducated and unwise thing for people to do because not only is it silly it is sad that anyone can have such a narrow point of view. I personally choose to look at the whole picture not just a few examples. My experience has been good so I continue to breed to and believe in this stallion, maybe if I had bad experiences I’d feel differently, but I still would not imply that the stallion caused my problems. I think I would just assume that I may not have the “right” mare to cross with this stallion. The truth is, every stallion needs to be bred to the “right” mare. Too many people don’t think the whole equation through and then get surprised sometimes by the results. Many people breed to a stallion to get one just like him, but he only ever can give 50%.
Very well put! :yes:
Seb 
[QUOTE=Sonesta;3292511]
I’ve had experience with only a few AD babies. Two fine; one not so much. But I think it is very important to remember that AD was one of the earliest of the colored stallions. MANY MANY (hundreds!) people bred their mares to him - good mares and bad mares. And these early mares were a lot of OTTB mares. Many (maybe even most) of these silly-minded ones and bad footed ones likely came from silly-minded or bad-footed mares.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree and while I think the stallion’s temperament is important I put much more emphasis on the dam and on how the horse is raised/trained.
I must say I was very surprised by this thread. I have an Art Deco son and opened the thread thinking I would find all these comments about how mellow, trainable, etc. their AD offsprings are, because that is how mine is. If I would have started this thread with my experience and then said, my AD son is somewhat on the lazy side, what is everyone else’s experience, I think the thread would have taken a totally different direction. I have personally met 2 other AD offspring and like mine, they were mellow, sweet, beautiful and very trainable! The mare I bred to Art Deco is my X-Eventer. She’s brave, smart, talented, with a super temperament and so is her son! I have never met Art Deco in person but have the highest regard for him as a stallion and for Liz as one of the best stallion owners I’ve ever dealt with!
Personally, I really appreciate people sharing frankly their experience with offspring of particular stallions. Any breeder is well aware that there will be variation in offspring based on the mares in question and chance. But, with so many mare owners using cooled and frozen semen, and often living far away from the stallion in question and unable to see the stallion or offspring “in the flesh” it is invaluable to have a forum like this where people can share their individual experiences.
Sharing experiences is fine but with a respectful tone. We’re not talking about someone’s pet. Art Deco has been widely used, and he is one of the elder stallion statesmen. Liz Hall is one of the longtime SO who is very well respected for her customer service.
I’ve only had the one AD filly, who turned out to be an exceptional horse. She was one of four siblings and I bought the TB mare after seeing one of her brothers move. OMG. I think I had the best of the four, but then my nutrition program is different, same with my turnout. Two significant differences.
I bred to Riverman early on and might not have done so if I had been privy to some of the threads that followed that the Riverman get can be difficult. I think the Hasslers were open with mare owners and helped them to decide on what was best for a mare and for the owner. My Riverman was a difficult guy to start even for a professional but he is a peach of a ride now and his owner hopes to go all the way to Grand Prix.
As someone pointed out, Jazz is fabulous sire but you want to know what you are getting into, especially if you are an amateur.
Not only does stereotyping a stallion hurt the stallion owner, but also anyone that has ever bred to him or owned one of the youngsters. They may be trying to sell the sweetest, easiest horse in the world, but if there is talk about the stallion producing difficult horses, it will effect their inquiries.
Discussing a specific behavior that you have seen in a horse is one thing, but think long and hard before labeling the horse or bloodline with a negative characteristic.
I love my Art Deco
Oh Liz… you forgot my e-mail to you…
I am very very pleased with my boy by Art Deco. He was very easy to start, easy at his first shows, easy for the trainers; just an over all very easy going individual and he is a stallion. He has been ridden by myself (an amateur) and by a few professionals. He has very nice feet and a fabulous temperament. When we are showing one would have to take a second look to know he is a stallion. He has competed to 4’3" including a tour at Spruce Meadows where the highlight was a 4th and going double clear. He has done hunters, eventing and dressage with me riding him. He is super easy and close to, if not, my favorite horse.
Here is his Spruce Meadows round I am so proud of. It is just down his page a bit. http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Artsaero.htm
I would like to Thanks Liz for producing this fabulous horse.
Darlyn,
I totally agree about the ramifications of comments.
Sally
I have one Art Deco and one Hall of Fame mare that I bred myself. My Art Deco mare, Eleganz is my absolute prize broodmare. Yes, she’s been ridden, and she was fine under saddle, but she is sooooooooooooo valuable as a broodmare that she will never be ridden again, except maybe when she retires from breeding. She is an absolute sweetheart who knows her job sooooooo well that I think I could just stand her up for the inspectors, then turn her and her foal loose and she would do the triangle by herself. She is very, very special. A former neighbor, who knew absolutely nothing about horses, told me one day, “I don’t know anything about horses, but I have to tell you that there is something very special about that horse (Eleganz). She is so beautiful and graceful and regal that I just can’t take my eyes off her. Every night when I come home I just watch her for a while before I go into the house. There’s just something about her that makes me want to stand there and look at her”. Eleganz
Not only that, but all her foals have been Premium, including one who was the Colt Champion, Site Champion and highest scoring colt in the country, and one filly who was Reserve Champion at her inspection.
My Hall of Fame mare, Harlequin, is also a pocket pet. She is just the biggest love and she, also, is turning out to be a really good broodmare. She had 2 unfortunate incidents where she stepped in a ground hornet’s nest, and again another one the next day, and was stung so badly she developed nerve damage in her face and her throat and can’t be ridden. She is everybody’s favorite as she comes up to everyone to schmooze with them. Scroll down to her name, Harlequin, to see her.
I had a 3rd Art Deco foal years ago that I sold. I don’t know where he is now, but I heard his rider was extremely successful with him. I did one time try to buy him back and the girl said, “Not on your life. He’s my dream come true”.
Not only that, but Liz is one of the best SO’s I’ve ever worked with. Art Deco is a superlative broodmare sire and he’s had numerous excellent hunter, dressage, eventing offspring.
I love my Art Deco…
I have a full WB Art Deco gelding that is an absolute puppy. I am in no way NEAR a professional ride, I am a true amateur and he has never ever been anything but a gentleman. I bought him from the mare owner when he was 4 - he just turned 17 this week. I too was warned before buying him and he has HONESTLY bucked ONCE undersaddle the entire time I owned him. That was when he pulled a suspensory and was laid up for a good 7 months, that April my first lesson back I got long to a big oxer and he bucked after. That said, he is definitely a responsive horse and although not hot, sometimes spooky, he has no bottom. Seriously, if you put a stick on him after an entire day of horse showing, beware, he is off, no matter how much you rode him before. So I generally don’t use a stick, I have dropped it on course after leaving a stride out in a line, he is just savvy, never bad though. He is quiet, I have NEVER had to lunge him to get to the ring, he just always seems to have an energy reserve, I trail ride alone or with others, in the front, in the back, hunter pace, he has done 3 foot hunters, equitation and jumpers (I don’t jump bigger but he could) and is good at any dicipline, he follows me around (think Black Stallion), doen’t ever run off, I can leave him in a field loose (I don’t mean paddock, I mean open field or even grass by the trailer at a show) with a halter and lead rope, if he steps on it he doesn’t even raise his head, he just backs up and I can lunge my little (3 and 6) nieces on him - walk, trot, and even cavalettis, really a gem. I think it is personality, and also he has no TB at all in him. Here are some photos…
PS - I have had offers and WOULD NEVER SELL him, that’s gotta say something…
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2492015090103626323dTBjqq
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2313058610103626323UeQAgN
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2038242860103626323ywKbia
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2313058610103626323UeQAgN
and here are the two kids that ride him grooming my new yearling app…
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2000980940103626323ANGEab
I’m not sure how I became the poster child for the “I hate Art Deco” crowd, because I never said any such thing. I said, and I repeat: We bred to him and one of his sons five times with three mares; we did not have success. They were hot and spooky. That was not the case when the same mares where crossed with other stallions. I repeat: Such is the crapshoot of breeding. Too bad, it’s sad, sucks to be us.
Also allow me to point out that I said, repeatedly, that I was sure that there were nice ones out there, it just hadn’t been MY experience. And, judging by this thread, I’m not the only one who had it.
Why is that any less valid than those who have had wondrous experiences? I would imagine that if you did a bell curve of any horse who has as many foals on the ground as this stallion does, you’d find some are in the top percentile, some are in the bottom, and the vast majority are in-between.
My final comment on this whole debacle: Stallion owners, you – and this is a generic you – cannot have it both ways. Momma and poppa each contribute 50% of the genes. If the stallion gets to claim all the success for the good ones, he has to share in some of the responsibility for the not-so-good ones. It makes no logical sense to point to the mares and mare owners when things go wrong, but claim all the credit for the stallion when it goes right.
After all, I might just conclude that the reason for a particular foal’s success was mom, right?
There. I’m done, for which I am sure you will all be grateful. I’ll just go back to sharing my opinion on stallions I’ve used by PT and thereby help stifle any discussion about the pros and cons of a particular horse. Oh, I’ll also figure out what kind of badge I’m going to make myself for being the founder of this new club.
There’s always good and bad to everything. People get so upset if you post about your bad experiences but if you post a good experience, you’re their best friend. 
I also wonder about stallion owners who accept rank, ill-behaved, ill-tempered mares as breeding candidates for their stallion. When we bred my QH mare to a very well known, winning QH pleasure stallion, my mare was INSPECTED before she was accepted for breeding. If you don’t do that, then surely you WILL end up with ugly talk about your stallion due to the babies that a nasty mare produced.
Prepotent stallions pass on their traits. That’s just the way it is. If you consistently hear of a specific personality type being produced by a stallion, there’s got to be a reason for it.
It seems like the AD reports even out with half the people saying their puppy dogs could be used for therapeutic riding programs, and the other half saying their AD horses need a pro ride because the horses are too sensitive, hot and over-reactive for the average ammy. I guess people can take that as they will. It just wasn’t a chance I wanted to take for my situation. One hot-head in the barn is all I need thankyaverymuch.
Again, the AD mare I had on my farm for 6 weeks was an absolutely hun-bun snuggler full of love and kisses for anyone who would stop and pet her. But she was terrified of everything and so damned reactive and spooky. I have a hot horse who is pretty reactive but the AD mare beat her by miles in that department.
[QUOTE=Beezer;3301438]
There. I’m done, for which I am sure you will all be grateful. I’ll just go back to sharing my opinion on stallions I’ve used by PT and thereby help stifle any discussion about the pros and cons of a particular horse. .[/QUOTE]
You know, I think this is one of the reasons why the European’s have had such success in their registries, you can get a report of the stallions pro’s and con’s. Seriously, Voltaire wasn’t accepted into a studbook because he wasn’t correct enough, nor did they think he was talented enough, and look what he has produced because he was bred to the right mares!! I do not understand why whenever something critical of a stallion, with it’s name given, it’s the end of the world. Art Deco mught be the poster-child for this, there are plenty or gorgeous offspring by him who are talented, he was successful, so what on earth is wrong with people politely versing their experience with his get? For US breeders to be successful, people must be more willing to share the good and the bad, and if it’s delivered indifferently, all the better! Was it Capitol who had the long back, was bred to mares known to improve on that, and look what he has produced
I think this is one of the reason’s why Hilltop is so highly regarded, they have no problem giving you a complete breakdown of what a stallion they are standing will and will not accomplish, and what he is lacking as an individual.
I agree with you. I have meant NO disrespect to anyone, particularly the stallion or his owner, with my comments. My comments have just been pure fact based on my experience with ONE AD horse. Nothing more. People are intelligent enough to take ALL the anecdotes from all sources and reach their own conclusion - be it positive or negative. The AD topic has come up at least 2 other times on this board that I can remember. I guess there’s a reason people keep asking what his foals are like? I don’t know.
Lovely mares, Tiki! (I want to see more photos of them! )The way you describe Eleganz is the way I feel about my After Glow. She is beautiful, a spectacular mover and just has an elegance about her that makes you want to watch her. And she is the sweetest of all my mares. She is a premium mare with RPSI and all of her foals have been fantastic. The two that have been inspected as foals so far(one missed her foal inspection due to illness), have been Gold Premium and the high-scoring foals of their inspections with over all scores of 8.4 and 8.7 and movement scores of 8.8 and 9.0. This year’s colt is a beautiful and a total puppy dog personality. I can’t wait to see how he does at inspection. After Glow had successful careers in both the A/O hunters and dressage with her amateur owner before I acquired her. She is a breeder’s dream…right down to producing an near-replica of herself in one of her fillies so that her legacy will continue. I don’t think there’s anything more I could as of her. As I said before, if I could have a barn full of her, I would be very happy.
And I couldn’t agree more with your last comment, both about Liz and about Deco.
Edited to add–Mr. Jig, your boy is gorgeous!
