Art2Ride vs. Stretchy Trot/Gaits?

[RainWeasley]

I’ve been noticing a lot of different training styles, more like training cultures, pop up on Instagram and Facebook lately, R+ and Art2Ride and such. I’m kind of curious about the art2ride stuff. I like the whole concept of lowering the head to lift the back, but isn’t that basically what a stretchy trot and canter does? Not to mention most of the people I see doing the art2ride low head carriage look like their horses are rooting the bit down and just dropping the neck, even if they are moving forward pretty well. Like, it looks like the whole topline isn’t engaged. And if that is the case, is the back truly engaged? They basically look like western horses moving at a trot instead of a jog.

And that brings me to another thought: what does a REAL, proper stretchy trot look like? Does anyone have any good pictures or video of a proper stretchy trot, or maybe a side by side comparison with what is a good trot and what is just a “dropping the head not truly connected” trot? I feel like it could be informative for people (including me!)

[evilc123]

I have been intrigued by A2R for several years, but skeptical in some ways. They basically suggest lunging and WIH even for adult horses for upwards of a year before backing them–at which point the objective is to continue just working on achieving that stretching way way downwards. I understand the concept and the mechanics–if the horse is stretch all the way towards the ground and has impulsion from behind, the back automatically rounds itself. The problem is that I NEVER see a finished product! If you go for a few years of only trying to achieve a super long/low frame, how would you ever get to the point of riding a dressage test? The horses that Will Faerber works with are lovely and strong, but I still have yet to see A2R-ers who have gotten to the point of lifting the poll. It is almost like a video game where only a mythical few have the patients, stamina, capacity to make it to Level 100. Definitely interested to hear what others have to say about this! Thanks for posting!

(BTW…I am obviously oversimplifying the A2R method for the sake of brevity… :P)

[Denali6298]

I can see it’s place if the horse doesn’t or needs to get better for stretchy work. I would never use it on my mare because stretchy trot is her favorite thing near the end of our rides. She just does it. The constant lunging is always a red flag for me.

[Dressage59]

Supposedly he was a student of Nuno (sp?). I gather there have been many posts on him, most of which are unfavorable. I personally know some people that spend a year working their horse on the lunge before backing. If the horse gives them a problem at the trot, then it’s more time on the lunge. Same way with the canter - stop the saddle work and lunge again. I don’t know if he’s good at working with problem horses. His scores on Centerline aren’t that great!

[RainWeasley]

Yeah I read some threads from a year and more about the guy Will Faerber (sp?), doesn’t sound like the most reliable training source. I do agree with previous threads stating that his following seems to be mostly younger girls that want an alternative way to do dressage I guess? It seems to me mostly like it could be a useful tool to have in your arsenal, but most of the people seem more like followers that want to be a part of the “special group that does things their own way”. There’s a lot to be said psychologically for methods that make you feel included in a specific group/community rather than just general good training (read Parelli, R+, Clinton Anderson, etc).

Personally, my horse has a long neck, long back with a super sloped shoulder, is sliiiightly downhill at the moment (4 year old appendix qh), and is just conformed kind of flat and long. I wouldn’t want to spend much time riding with his head down that low, I just can’t see it helping him much.

[RainWeasley]

@evilc123

I have been intrigued by A2R for several years, but skeptical in some ways. They basically suggest lunging and WIH even for adult horses for upwards of a year before backing them–at which point the objective is to continue just working on achieving that stretching way way downwards. I understand the concept and the mechanics–if the horse is stretch all the way towards the ground and has impulsion from behind, the back automatically rounds itself. The problem is that I NEVER see a finished product! If you go for a few years of only trying to achieve a super long/low frame, how would you ever get to the point of riding a dressage test? The horses that Will Faerber works with are lovely and strong, but I still have yet to see A2R-ers who have gotten to the point of lifting the poll. It is almost like a video game where only a mythical few have the patients, stamina, capacity to make it to Level 100. Definitely interested to hear what others have to say about this! Thanks for posting!

(BTW…I am obviously oversimplifying the A2R method for the sake of brevity… :P)

I just saw a girl post on IG who uses this…and her horse does look nice on the flat at a trot with the head lowered. And she jumps him, so his head is brought up…but his nose is poked out, no connection or real adjustability at all, looks like one of those beginner lesson horses that jumps nice but was never taught to really connect with the bit. She is supposed to be pretty good as far as the method goes too, so it kind of seems like that can pretty much get it to look nice with the head low but once they bring it up there is still no connection. No “frame”, so to speak, if you get what I mean.

[DressageD1va]

The thing is that it looks more like gravity and exhaustion dropping the head which does not automatically bring the hind legs under and back up.
Dressage is supposed to bring horses into an uphill balance and improve gaits. Putting the weight on the front legs doesn’t achieve that.
stretching to a contact in a stretchy trot has nothing to do with gravity. It is when the hind legs do come under and the back swings and the horse PUSHES to the contact.
it us a huge red flag to lunge for so long to me. It is way too much wear and tear on the horse without them learning to balance a rider’s weight.
why in the world waste that energy without educating a horse to balance weight
baffles my mind

[evilc123]

@RainWeasley

I just saw a girl post on IG who uses this…and her horse does look nice on the flat at a trot with the head lowered. And she jumps him, so his head is brought up…but his nose is poked out, no connection or real adjustability at all, looks like one of those beginner lesson horses that jumps nice but was never taught to really connect with the bit. She is supposed to be pretty good as far as the method goes too, so it kind of seems like that can pretty much get it to look nice with the head low but once they bring it up there is still no connection. No “frame”, so to speak, if you get what I mean.

Totally get what you mean! The most advanced I’ve seen an A2R follower seem to get is trotting and very occasionally cantering in a circle with zero contact. Trying to encourage the horse to seek connection to the bit and the rider’s hand is completely missing from the method. I guess I feel like the use of stretching should be one “tool” in a big toolbox, but not the main focus around which the training is centered upon. I initially became interested in A2R when I was rehabbing a horse post-kissing spine surgery and it was a useful technique at that time…but the horse was definitely ready for collection well before A2R would have suggested, so it would have just held us back ultimately if we followed the process to a tee.

[joiedevie99]

@RainWeasley

And that brings me to another thought: what does a REAL, proper stretchy trot look like? Does anyone have any good pictures or video of a proper stretchy trot, or maybe a side by side comparison with what is a good trot and what is just a “dropping the head not truly connected” trot? I feel like it could be informative for people (including me!)

The best I’ve ever seen is an Ingrid Klimke video from maybe 8 years ago, but I can’t see to turn it up. There is a tiny clip of it at the beginning and end of this video - on a chestnut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uS5EuMULoc

Here’s one that’s pretty close - horse tracks up well, relaxes and swings through the back, stays round in the topline, and stays on contact seeking the hand. I’d want the nose to reach a bit more in front of the vertical, as Ingrid’s horse clearly demonstrates in the clip above, in an ideal world though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk1Yy16LQpA

How far down your horse reaches (between point of shoulder and knee) will depend on their own conformation more than anything else.

[RainWeasley]

@joiedevie99

The best I’ve ever seen is an Ingrid Klimke video from maybe 8 years ago, but I can’t see to turn it up. There is a tiny clip of it at the beginning and end of this video - on a chestnut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uS5EuMULoc

Here’s one that’s pretty close - horse tracks up well, relaxes and swings through the back, stays round in the topline, and stays on contact seeking the hand. I’d want the nose to reach a bit more in front of the vertical, as Ingrid’s horse clearly demonstrates in the clip above, in an ideal world though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk1Yy16LQpA

How far down your horse reaches (between point of shoulder and knee) will depend on their own conformation more than anything else.

See that’s what I picture in my head when I think of it. That actually looks connected and like it’s doing something useful. I agree with the above comment about the A2R just looking like the horses heads are dropped due to gravity or exhaustion.

[Lunabear1988]

That’s actually Uta Graf on the Chestnut but Ingrid Klimke also shows great examples too! They both are ideals of mine, I believe they often show correct riding. I think there is an article somewhere with photos of Ingrid doing fdo. I’ll see if I can find it.

[Lunabear1988]

Oh wait, I’m dumb, I see Ingrid in the middle of the video too. Uta Graf and Ingrid Klimke are great examples either way.

[KJT]

After restarting my mustang and establishing constant, correct contact with the bit, I used the Art2Ride method to teach my gelding how to keep that contact and stretch over his back. Used the lunging (10 minutes/day moving up and down the arena) to work on getting him to step underneath himself, instead of trailing out behind. It was more helpful for us both to work on the stretch from the saddle. It took about a year. WF’s got his soap boxes and I’ve read the negative about him, but this method worked for both my horse and I at that particular time in our training. Now that we’re working on keeping that soft, swingy back and energy, while raising the front end into a working frame, I’m not watching nearly as many A2R videos.

[RainWeasley]

@KJT

After restarting my mustang and establishing constant, correct contact with the bit, I used the Art2Ride method to teach my gelding how to keep that contact and stretch over his back. Used the lunging (10 minutes/day moving up and down the arena) to work on getting him to step underneath himself, instead of trailing out behind. It was more helpful for us both to work on the stretch from the saddle. It took about a year. WF’s got his soap boxes and I’ve read the negative about him, but this method worked for both my horse and I at that particular time in our training. Now that we’re working on keeping that soft, swingy back and energy, while raising the front end into a working frame, I’m not watching nearly as many A2R videos.

I have heard that it is useful helping horses that either like to stargaze or evade contact but going up or behind. Which is why I think it could be a useful tool! The principle behind it just doesn’t seem that far off from doing a good stretchy trot though, that doesn’t just let the horse drop its head down like a WP peanut roller. Though I could see it being most helpful for a horse with some kind of back injury/issue that can’t truly work over the back yet.

[Scribbler]

I work in a program that emphasizes stretching to the bit (1) at the very start to establish willing contact and (2) for horses that tend to go inverted or above the bit, like my mare. But it is only a starting point. Now depending on talent of horse and rider you might have to stick with it for a while. My mare needed to rebuild her sewing machine trot and I was new to dressage and to this program, and I ended up working on this for several years before my intermittent coach took a look at us and said, time to raise the head. Which we did.

The point however of our stretching to the bit was for the horse to stretch into contact with the bit, not go on a loose rein. Very tricky if the ridet doesn’t have totally independent hands and if the horse is sucking back.

So IMHO A2A has only one small.part of the puzzle and isn’t even executing it correctly as a building block towards dressage.

On the other hand, just letting go of the horse’s face is a huge step for many riders in all disciplines. I’ve seen clinicians in both dressage and western get instant amazing results by just convincing the riders to let go of the face and let the horses move.

Indeed many problems that send riders to clnics involve a death grip on the reins.

So I bet he’s fantastic at this first quick fix stage. But Ive seen no evidence he moves beyond it.

[DressageD1va]

@Scribbler

I work in a program that emphasizes stretching to the bit (1) at the very start to establish willing contact and (2) for horses that tend to go inverted or above the bit, like my mare. But it is only a starting point. Now depending on talent of horse and rider you might have to stick with it for a while. My mare needed to rebuild her sewing machine trot and I was new to dressage and to this program, and I ended up working on this for several years before my intermittent coach took a look at us and said, time to raise the head. Which we did.

The point however of our stretching to the bit was for the horse to stretch into contact with the bit, not go on a loose rein. Very tricky if the ridet doesn’t have totally independent hands and if the horse is sucking back.

So IMHO A2A has only one small.part of the puzzle and isn’t even executing it correctly as a building block towards dressage.

On the other hand, just letting go of the horse’s face is a huge step for many riders in all disciplines. I’ve seen clinicians in both dressage and western get instant amazing results by just convincing the riders to let go of the face and let the horses move.

Indeed many problems that send riders to clnics involve a death grip on the reins.

So I bet he’s fantastic at this first quick fix stage. But Ive seen no evidence he moves beyond it.

Excellent point. Seeing the quick change at a 2 day clinic when convincing a rider to stop death gripping a horse’s mouth creates a positive feeling for the rider. The rider then thinks that that is the final solution when really it’s the very top of the huge iceberg that is dressage.

[jonem004]

@RainWeasley

I have heard that it is useful helping horses that either like to stargaze or evade contact but going up or behind. Which is why I think it could be a useful tool! …

…Though I could see it being most helpful for a horse with some kind of back injury/issue that can’t truly work over the back yet.

This is how I see it, as a great tool for the right horses. I wouldn’t mind if just about every Friesian got started this way as their conformation can make them VERY hard to get through and over their backs.

He is spreading the good news about what it really means for a horse to be round and their back to be up though. People ride their whole dang lives with trainers and never get the basic concept he lays out in a 3 minute video and I respect the heck out of him for that.

[DressageD1va]

@jonem004

This is how I see it, as a great tool for the right horses. I wouldn’t mind if just about every Friesian got started this way as their conformation can make them VERY hard to get through and over their backs.

He is spreading the good news about what it really means for a horse to be round and their back to be up though. People ride their whole dang lives with trainers and never get the basic concept he lays out in a 3 minute video and I respect the heck out of him for that.

He’s spreading how to drop contact and wait until gravity drops a head down but then proudly exclaims how the back is suddenly up and hind legs are more under. Unfortunately it’s untrue because if you pause the videos the front legs are now not reaching in front of the horse and the weight is distributed more on them. Horses have more of their body weight in the front 1/2 of their bodies so it’s a trainer or rider’s job to teach them to use their hind legs. It requires pushing to a contact even in a stretch. Watching the art tel ride method it’s painfully clear to see that the horse doesn’t seem contact and that Will is quite pleased once the horse drops on the forehand.
As was stated above in a few other comments it’s a very very small aspect of proper schooling (the idea of dropping the neck to get the back up) and is practiced by every single trainer worth their salt. He’s expanded on only that part to the absolute extreme without moving past it. It’s not a desirable end result and horses movement is being damaged and ultimately a horse going so unbalanced for so long will suffer physical damage especially if forced on a lunge line for extended periods of time.

[evilc123]

The major diff between the stretchy trot vids posted earlier and the A2R vids is what the front shoulder and legs are doing–big, slow, light strides coming from the shoulder vs choppy, quick, heavy daisy cutting strides.

I actually made a comment on one of WF’s vids about the riders hands being bouncy and inconsistent which won’t help the horse seek consistent contact and got a huge earful from him that wasn’t particularly useful or coherent.

[hoopoe]

fdo is not about the head, it is about the abdomen. without the lifted abdomen, the circle of energy is not complete