Yes, jonem004! And a great tool for the short term, for putting the beginning pieces of through-ness together.
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Yes, as I recall when I watched his videos, the horses weren’t stretching to the bit or tracking up, and he was even letting them go around with lowered head but behind the vertical. I stumbled onto A2R videos while surfing on a wide screen TV for mentions of Nuno. We were inititally interested, watched a bit, and dismissed A2R.
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The daisy cutter comment on the A2R kiddos sounds about right. I watched one girl that is part of the A2R…culture, and her horse was trotting around warp speed with its nose to the ground and her hands all over the place to try to keep its head down low. It just looked uncomfortable. Her actual riding didn’t look awful, besides her hands and the fact that she was posting to keep up with his fast choppy trot she was encouraging. And if the horse slowed down a bit so he could actually use himself I bet he would be quite nice. Makes you hope they figure it out one day.
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So Friesians are bred more for driving than under saddle and it’s not news that a correctly moving horse works over its back. What word needs to be spread? The idea is fine, the rest not so much. I’m not impressed what so ever.
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Agreed. However it depends on exactly how bad dressage is in your particular pond or puddle.
At my barn, even the high dollar visiting coaches teach riding front to back, and people will stick a green horse in a “frame” and ride btv for the totality of every single ride.
People joke about how much arm strength it takes to put a horse together. Not surprisingly there’s a high level of chronic strain injuries (hocks, stifles, suspensories) and horses either break down before showing first level, or go up the levels with scores in the 50s. Even the ones with nice gaits end up sucked back or pony trot.
I’m in a different program than that.
Anyhow an A2R session would probably be a revelation to those folks.
My sense from his videos was that’s his target market: mediocre ammies who have ruined their horses with really bad training and need some rehab.
Now the thing is, if you have been coached to ride front to back, “get him round,” jab jab on the reins, etc., then you have really no idea how a horse should go. So I can see going over to the other extreme of A2R and thinking its the absolute solution and perhaps being reluctant to ride on contact again because you think of contact as water skiing on the reins
Long digression. But wanted to say we have two Friesian crosses at our barn with natural high neck sets and it has never occurred to their riders to stretch their necks down because “they look so pretty in their natural dressage frames.” And no they don’t really engage their hind ends.
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Sad state of affairs. I feel like what was a given 30 years ago is now a revelation.
Or else dressage has become popularized enough that people who don’t ride well enough to really do dressage pick it up as a low risk sport, because they know they will fall off jumping.
30 years ago they would be in rail classes but those have disappeared outside of breed shows.
I actually think starting off a beginner or intermediate trying to school dressage and ride on clear contact before they have independent hands, seats, and legs really messes up their riding position and often creates a rider who can’t let go of the reins.
Anyhow, a digression I’ve ranted about before. But I think this is the target market for A2R.
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Agreed. It’s not limited to dressage. It’s in all disciplines.
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I would argue from the horses and riders I see going around at dressage and eventing shows that a big portion of our sport has no idea what it feels like for a horse to lift its back. Maybe they don’t even know it’s a thing that should be happening, but it definitely ISN’T happening.
Even at the upper levels you see horses going around and even winning with their front and hind ends completely disconnected.
So yeah, it is news that horses need to be moving from behind and coming over their backs. I’m happy to put my differences aside with someone who is willing to put out ELI5 videos talking about the mechanism of the horses back/muscles/vertebrae. I’d rather see lower level riders spending too much time in stretchy trot that rollkur.
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Yeah except A2R isn’t really doing the kind of stretchy trot that raises the back and encourages the hind legs to step under. Maybe some horses do this spontaneously if the rider lets go of the face, but if a horse needs to learn to stretch and raise its withers and back, A2R has no technique.
Riding his way is better than rolkur, agreed.
But it is not better than riding an active stretch down into contact as a gymnastic. Which would never be your position for the whole ride anyhow.
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@jonem004 what scribbler said. Also one isn’t better than. IMO both systems suck. Not sure where you are located but inverted horses are not the norm where I live.
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Agreed. I think he talks a better game than he rides, and I’m not drinking his koolade as a training system. I think a horses neck has to adopt different postures to develop different muscle groups, so even if he was getting his horses backs up it wouldn’t be an appropriate system to bring a horse along.
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I follow many accomplished trainers on instagram and some advertise art2ride and some don’t but use lots of long and low. Many also jump and their horses look fine when they bring them up to jump. I personally can’t see whats so wrong about only focusing on the horses hind end and back. These horses look really really light in the hand, isn’t that what Dressage is about? They look happy, I can’t see why this would not be dressage. They appear to really move through the hind end to me?
I especially like to follow vtr_equestrian who is a classical dressage coach under art2ride, aulita_eventing, chiaraposcente i think events and is certified instructor, and leilunaequestrian all on instagram. I don’t really know much about the art2ride stuff but I can’t see how this isn’t correct.
That was kind of the point. There’s a difference between long and low and the plodding, western pleasure type headset that a lot of the followers use. I’ve followed some of those people too and I don’t see a whole lot of beneficial, correct riding. Lots of messing about with the reins, head dropped but not reaching for the contact and really stretching and working through the back.
I agree with what Scribbler and some of the other posters have said - the A2R horses are not being taught to engage their abdominals and lift their backs, which means there is no recycling of energy and therefore not a true stretch. They are just dropping their heads on the ground, which can be fine in certain situations but it isn’t a good starting place for dressage IMO. My horse can go like an A2R horse or be stretched properly like a dressage horse… that’s because his preference is to be as long and low as possible while not lifting his back, but he has been trained to stretch correctly. It’s not true lightness in the bridle if you have reins that are 5 feet long. My horse is significantly harder to ride and heavier in the bridle if he is allowed to go as he pleases, whereas the gymnastized dressage stretch makes him feel amazing in the bridle- this is both during the “stretch” and after he is picked back up again.
I also don’t see the purpose of riding a horse in the A2R outline all the time. When I ride my horses, I frequently change where their necks are and obviously try to keep their backs up at all times. For example, my 3rd level horse warms up in a dressage stretch or a deeper outline to really get him to loosen his back, then usually works in a 3rd level outline (neck and shoulders lifted with more engagement of hindquarters) with breaks in between, then cools off in a dressage stretch followed by free walk.
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@RainWeasley sorry, I am a newly hunter jumper convert. Can you tell me (through pm if you want) which one of those accounts is correct? or incorrect? I have no dressage trainer so im trying to learn. These trainers were all kind of inspiration for me, Some even post lots of information about what they are doing and why. It sure seems correct but I want to learn if im wrong. Most of them seem like very accomplished eventers like leilunaequestrian which takes a lot of dressage knowledge. And I think chiaraposcente is also an FEI dressage rider although right now looks like she only has a young mount.
I get that instagram isn’t the best place to learn but not a lot of dressage books talk about long and low. And my h/j trainer isn’t super versed in dressage. She does tell me to ride back to front and with a loop in the rein. If anyone knows of a dressage book where I could learn more about long and low, that would be great. Sorry for my ignorance.
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I will say one of them does most work on a loose rein, looks really light and lovely to my eye. Even maintains a bit of slack during the stretch/long and low. Isn;t that what we want? self carriage? thanks…
I’m still learning too, don’t worry, dressage is fairly new to me too! And a lot of them aren’t wrong, it’s mostly just the difference between letting a horse drop it’s head from the withers as opposed to REALLY using the back. Someone posted a good video showing how it looks when it’s done really beneficially by some top dressage riders earlier in this thread, I think on the first page. That’s why I was asking to begin with, to learn more about it 
I have the problem of a young downhill horse, so if I just let him drop his head or try to coerce him to drop it down, it really wouldn’t help him build up strength at all. Most of what we are doing that has been the most helpful lately is just really moving forward into the contact and me making sure not to ever pull backwards at all, and then completely relax when he is going well. As that gets more consistent, when he connects I will start letting the reins out and supporting with my leg to step under more and stretch a bit as long as he stays connected. I think that’s a big thing some of those people miss, they immediately start fiddling with the reins to get the head down and THEN try to make the horse go forward, but to me it just doesn’t look right, or all that comfortable for the horse.
Slack actually isn’t good for dressage, it creates an inconsistent connection/contact with the horse. You don’t want to pull on the mouth but you want a good elastic constant contact, requires being able to follow the horse’s movement perfectly with your elbows and not stiffening up or bracing at all. The “slack reined” horses typically are behind the bit and not actually connected, or bearing down on the bit.
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If I am totally wrong by the way, someone correct me please! That’s what I’ve picked up so far from lessons/trainers/resources.
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