[QUOTE=jetsmom;6005236]
(psst- there is nothing imflammatory in my post.) Relax.[/QUOTE]
troll
SusanP, you are quite right, killing IS dramatic, no matter how it is accomplished, no matter who is dying. It should NEVER be easy. We are brainstorming here to try to figure out how the necessary, controlled killing of horses can be less TRAUMATIC. EDIT:That didn’t come out quite right, I meant it should ALWAYS be easy for the one dying, never easy for the one killing*
The trouble is, how do we get the good ideas from here on the COTH to the people who need to implement those ideas? Who are those people? I don’t REALLY want to become the local killer for Southern Maine but there is NO doubt I would do it right. The horses in my charge would never know fear and would die immediately, with treats in their mouths. I am not independently wealthy so I would need some sort of federal(?) funding. I also think the horse owner needs to pay a fee-nothing huge, but it would help them realize the magnitude of their actions as well as help me buy peppermints. Do I hang a sign at the end of my farm driveway:
HORSE KILLING DONE HERE
CALL FOR APPOINTMENT
There is a euthanasia/crematory an hour from here. I talked to them when 2 of my boys were heading over The Bridge together. It is a beautiful facility. The horses know no fear going in, their people can be with them, etc. The man could NOT have been any nicer, he’s on call 24/7. The cost was not a whole lot more than what my final fees doing the euth/burial here at home ended up being-roughly $500-600 each. They give your ashes back in a BEAUTIFUL hand-made wooden box suitable for display in your barn. (it is a big box…horse bodies create a lot of ashes) It was a nice deal. I opted out bc of the hour long trailer ride for 2 boys who didn’t feel well. $500 is alot of money for a backyard owner who can’t pay his mortgage, however.
Lifesabreeze, no name calling, please. We are trying to remain civil.
Sometimes it is just lack of information that creates both confusion, and actions less considerate of our four legged partners.
RBP made a comment that sent me to Google for a search on cremation in the SC area. Amazingly I found not one, but two that serve a region with the ability to handle large animals. Of course there is a cost, but as I mentioned before, the cost of handling death should be considered when taking on the responsibility of any animal; just as much as the cost of keeping them healthy.
I have not yet talked to my vet (or local vet center), but I would figure they would also have information on the proper disposal of an equine animal. Perhaps one of the first line of protection for horses is just getting information to local/regional horse owners that may not understand their options. I do feel strongly that if we have banned SH from this country, we should not be allowed to sell a horse (gain profit from) for eventual transportation across national lines for slaughter.
No system is perfect. There will always be people who try to cheat the system, get away with breaking the rules. WHat we can do is try to build a process that balances the basic rights of a horse with the economic issues of an owner. If someone has to choose between paying a mortgage or proper (humane) termination of their horse, first I’d ponder why the had one to begin with, but besides that, I’d want them to know they had an option, and even a financial aid to get them doing the right thing. This gets me thinking how information can be distributed in a tasteful, but direct manner.
When my guy died, I had him cremated. I had planned on doing this.
But it cost me $1200!! This included, I think, $250 for pick up. They were very kind and caring and professional.
RBP- I agree- I am so encouraged by this thread. Maybe for the first time at least that I haev encountered, we are horsemen first here, and anti or pro second.
It’s wonderful to see this focus on solutions.
Is there a way to do euthanasia clinics using the bell gun or something similar so they can then be sent to zoos, or sanctuaries, etc.?
Also, I can’t help but looking at what I think is part of the crux of the matter, so to speak -
No matter what, there will be people who want to make a few dollars from their horses - i.e. those larger lower end breeders who send thier culls to auction. That revenue must factor into their business plan, no matter how small. What would the scenario be then? I am not passing judgement here, I am truly wondering about this.
Removing the financial incentive - would that be a way to reduce some indiscriminate breeding? For some reason I am not loving the idea of breeding licenses, I don’t know why.
And someone here had an idea about a fee for breeding/foaling/registering putting into a retirement euthanasia fund? Wonderful idea!
Also, this may be far fetched, but here goes. For instance, I register my pony with the USEA. Part of the fee goes to a fund similar to above.
Someone(another member), somewhere gets into dire financial straits. Can’t sell their horse, give it away, or support it. Applies to USEA for funds to euthanise from the above mentioned fund.
I know there would be abuses, But I just thought I’d throw that out there.
It could be done by breed registries, disciplines, heck even local riding clubs,
4-h, etc. Lots of holes in this, and would need to be fleshed out.
For instance, if we were able to have a number of small facilities, but they do not pay the person bringing the horse, and in some cases the owners would have to pay to have the horse “put down”. I keep thinking about how to work this part out.
Did Temple Grandin design this slaughter house??
Somehow I just don’t see her designing something this,hit and miss.
[QUOTE=betonbill;6002023]
This is a new report issued by the Canadian Horse Defence Coalition of an alleged state of the art Temple Grandin designed slaughterhouse. I chose not to watch the videos but I did read all 80 pages of the report, which did seem to be very well documented. I would advise all to do the same.
One step in Action
I went back and reviewed the link from betonbill. I wont watch the video and after reading just the summary, I am not sure I’d want to read the report (that is imagery I do not need in my brain right now).
From the summary:
Despite past reassurances from the CFIA and industry that horse slaughter plant conditions would be improved, this investigation demonstrates that yet a fourth Canadian slaughterhouse is in violation of humane slaughter regulations.
…
Dr. Dodman had this to say: “…my final conclusion, after reviewing 150-plus horse slaughters in this series of videos, is that the process was terrifying for most of the horses and, in many cases, horribly inhumane. The inhumane treatment of horses at Les Viandes de la Petite Nation must be stopped immediately.”
The evidence is clear: it is impossible, even in well-designed, conscientiously-managed, assembly-line conditions, to humanely slaughter horses. As Dr. Dodman states, “…many head shy or apprehensive horses…presented the operator of the captive bolt gun with a moving target.”
With that in mind I plan to write to the president of USEA (of which I’m a member) to consider this issue and how (1) USEA can better inform its members of alternative methods for ending the life of a horse (2) that USEA press congress, as a equine organization, to dis-allow any legislation that would bring back wholesale/national slaughter of horses and support any legislation that would support community-based, financially aided methods for humane termination and disposal of horses, and (3) reach out to other equine organizations to add their voice and support. it may not reach everyone, but its a start. I’d encourage others within USEA to do the same. Maybe that will get their attention.
This is a difficult aspect of owning a horse. On one hand I hate working through this, I want my guys to live for ever, but realistically it is more then time it be brought out into the open and dealt with so our equine partners have a voice in how they are respected in death.
A ban on slaughter and transport to slaughter will not work unless there is a way to prevent horses from being bought by KB and taken over the border as “riding horses/breeding horses”, and taken to a feedlot/gathering point, then taken to slaughter. Which is what would happen if they just ban slaughter/transport to slaughter in the US.
I suggested on another thread that we should charge an export fee (of around 1500.00, like Mexico charges on horses coming to the US), so that it would be cost prohibitive to export for slaughter. On horses that are exported, any fees collected could be divided among the State Vets offices to go towards a gelding, hay bank, and euth fund.
The export fee would mean that there would be less sales of cheap horses to Canada/Mexico from the US, but I’m sure there is no lack of cheap horses in those countries. And adding 1500.00 to a 50,000.00 show horse, isn’t enough to screw up the deal.
There also needs to be a way to get the AVMA to back euth for economic reasons. They are pro slaughter but object to euthing a healthy horse/pasture sound horse. I am astounded that someone on this board posted that they were told their vet wouldn’t euth their horse that they couldn’t afford, but couldn’t ggive away, and was told by the vet to send him to slaughter.
Some great ideas here!
[QUOTE=jetsmom;6006131]
A ban on slaughter and transport to slaughter will not work unless there is a way to prevent horses from being bought by KB and taken over the border as “riding horses/breeding horses”, and taken to a feedlot/gathering point, then taken to slaughter. Which is what would happen if they just ban slaughter/transport to slaughter in the US.
I suggested on another thread that we should charge an export fee (of around 1500.00, like Mexico charges on horses coming to the US), so that it would be cost prohibitive to export for slaughter. On horses that are exported, any fees collected could be divided among the State Vets offices to go towards a gelding, hay bank, and euth fund.
The export fee would mean that there would be less sales of cheap horses to Canada/Mexico from the US, but I’m sure there is no lack of cheap horses in those countries. And adding 1500.00 to a 50,000.00 show horse, isn’t enough to screw up the deal.
There also needs to be a way to get the AVMA to back euth for economic reasons. They are pro slaughter but object to euthing a healthy horse/pasture sound horse. I am astounded that someone on this board posted that they were told their vet wouldn’t euth their horse that they couldn’t afford, but couldn’t ggive away, and was told by the vet to send him to slaughter.[/QUOTE]
This
[QUOTE=jetsmom;6006131]
A
There also needs to be a way to get the AVMA to back euth for economic reasons. They are pro slaughter but object to euthing a healthy horse/pasture sound horse. I am astounded that someone on this board posted that they were told their vet wouldn’t euth their horse that they couldn’t afford, but couldn’t ggive away, and was told by the vet to send him to slaughter.[/QUOTE]
It’s my understanding that the Europeans are far more likely to euthanize a sport horse that is no longer rideable. If true, I guess their vets have no problem with that.
Well, that’s where the veterinary community could be of help. Too many vets will not euthanize a healthy, but unwanted, animal.
I understand why they are opposed, but if society keeps shutting off avenues for owners to divest ownership…
We can shout for people to “be responsible” till the cows come home. Plan ahead, have more money in savings, not get sick, divorce, lose their home, etc.
But the fact remains that if we cannot sell them, cannot give them away, cannot keep them, cannot have them put down, rescues are full… the only options left are pretty risky ones. Take the animal to auction (IF an auction exists, and then a buyer may not meet your reserve, or you may just have to sell to a KB because he’s the only one bidding), or turn it loose. So maybe the vet putting down a healthy but unwanted animal isn’t as inhumane as some folks think it is.
Hey JP, why don’t we try to build a letter to the USEA and USEF here on the forum. There are a lot of good points and ideas in these postings. We could draw up a letter, everyone in favor print it out and send it off to Jo for distribution to the PTB.
I do like the export fee idea…it would have to be partially refundable when the horse returns home though. For instance, I can’t pay an additional $1500 to compete at Bromont 1 weekend in June…
I like the special fund idea too, Brandy…
Also, noone should be paid for sending a horse to slaughter. That is just wrong. No vet in the world should recommend slaughter either, unless it is at my PEACEFUL DEATH FARM. (eew, just kidding about the name)
Keep thinking people, there is progress to be made.
[QUOTE=RiverBendPol;6006304]
Hey JP, why don’t we try to build a letter to the USEA and USEF here on the forum. There are a lot of good points and ideas in these postings. We could draw up a letter, everyone in favor print it out and send it off to Jo for distribution to the PTB.
I do like the export fee idea…it would have to be partially refundable when the horse returns home though. For instance, I can’t pay an additional $1500 to compete at Bromont 1 weekend in June…
I like the special fund idea too, Brandy…
Also, noone should be paid for sending a horse to slaughter. That is just wrong. No vet in the world should recommend slaughter either, unless it is at my PEACEFUL DEATH FARM. (eew, just kidding about the name)
Keep thinking people, there is progress to be made.[/QUOTE]
It would be pretty easy to require that horses going out of the country be microchipped, and if they return within 90 days, (scan chip to verify id), refund the money.
I personally would be opposed to an export fee of that amount. Sure it’s not much on a 50,000.00 horse but it’s a lot on anything that’s 15,000.00 and under.
It would also have a huge effect on cross boarder showing.
I’m a big fan of micro chipping, birth control, education and regulating plants in the US and Canada to ensure that they are as humane as possible including hiring the right people for the job and training those people to be able to handle the job well.
I think one of the reasons some of the SH staff handle the horses poorly is to rationalize it in their own minds. If they see the horse as bad they cam rationalize killing it but they also become careless with them. Changing the mindset of the staff could make a big difference. Proper management and follow up are key.
I think another thing we overlook is that the people sending horses to slaughter don’t view them as a family member like we do. This is why they aren’t euthanizing them. How do we change their mindset?
These are just some things I’ve been thinking about with regard to this issue.
JSwan, RBP, AWESOME points, and great ideas.
Could it be we might be able to make a difference, aND make an end run around the pro/anti arguments and possibly get things done.
I have been thinking about all of this ever since that vet told me that years ago, that has been pecking at the back of my mind.
Great assimilation of points with a terrific proposal for action. You go, Pol!
Just an anecdote; Today I got a phone call from someone in our local horse community. She’s a nice lady who has had a boarder who worked off her board by taking care of the woman’s horses. Boarder has just had a car accident, can’t drive for 6 months and has no money to pay board. Do I know of anyone who will take the boarder’s horse? Said horse is 6-7 yo TBx mare, 15.1 (maybe), green broke if at all and lame. Oh, and did I mention she’s dominant and beats up pasture mates? I don’t know about you all, but I surely don’t know anyone who would want to breed this mare, she hasn’t got enough training to be usable, is too unsound to train, and can’t be a companion horse. Honestly, I don’t foresee a great outcome here. But this thread makes me think about what sort of options could possibly help in this situation and many others like it.
Annie, I think a discreet, thoughtful and sensitive conversation is in order. I can’t think of anyone better suited to the job than you…
That mare has very little going for her-how lame is she and why? Is she kind to humans? Could she go to Windrush? If you think long and hard, can you dream up any good activity for her? If not, it is time for her to cross The Bridge. I really think it is the best solution for many of our equine friends. She won’t know the difference-all she knows is that she’s getting more carrots than usual. She’s getting stuck in the neck, as she has 100 times before and she’ll be dead before she hits the ground. If there truly IS a Rainbow Bridge then for goodness sake, she’ll be sound, zooming around with all of our dead friends!
You remember my (Em’s) Scotty? He went to Heaven this summer because of almost all the same reasons as this mare in question. The only difference is that I wasn’t hurt nor broke and he wasn’t mean. Scotty was a rescue. He had been with us for 8 years. We tried everything under the sun to make him healthy and sound and to help him trust a rider on his back. Through a combination of miserable circumstances at the track and with a trainer before we got him, there was no bringing his head around. No one ever did figure out why his body hurt so much or where. He ‘retired’ here-Nobody got on his back for the last 4 years. This summer the light went out of his eye and I knew the time had come.
I happen to think his demise was a MUCH better option than continuing to stand around on ouchy feet, with a sore back, colicking every month or so and never being able to wander around our pretty farm. He was anxious and fretful and painful and what is the point of that? Should I have kept him alive…um…why? I can’t think even THINK of a reason! Why would anyone think his life was better than his death.
So, Dear Annie, we’ll support you, help you, guide you all you want but it seems to me that girl should go…I hope the boarder in question heals well (and is reasonable!)
Pol, we’ll take the specific discussion about the mare to the PMs, OK?
I was just using it as an illustration of a real life problem, and how limited the potential answers are for some horses. Please note, the mare is not mine nor does she belong to anyone I know. I am NOT seeking a home for her.
Now back to our excellent discussion.
[QUOTE=fernie fox;6006043]
Somehow I just don’t see her designing something this,hit and miss.[/QUOTE]
On one of the other slaughter threads there was an interview with Temple Grandin, and one of her primary requirements was a nonslip surface. On this current tape it mentions repeatedly horses slipping.
I’ll take a wild guess and say that maybe they asked Dr. Grandin to design the perfect slaughter house, then when they got the plans they went ahead and modified a lot of it. The report did mention the signature TG walkways, but somehow I can’t imagine her designing curtains that could be looked through by the horses or a slaughter floor that sloped awkwardly and was super slippery, nor an incorrect place for the guy with the bolt gun to stand.
Perhaps it started out as a TG designed plant, but I think there were a lot of shortcuts made from the original design.
A letter to USEA on slaughter
Pol made the suggestion to put together a letter reflecting many of the points mentioned here. This I did and I’ll post it for public comment. Generally this is reflective of my view, but I am open to “tweaks” that could enhance the message. Either way I plan to send this to the President of USEA. If anyone likes what I wrote feel free to copy it and send it off to USEA or an organization you are a member of. Pol commented that slaughter of horses was made legal again in the US. If this is the case then we really do need to put pressure on not just equine organizations, but on our political leaders.
USEA, Inc
525 Old Waterford Road, NW
Leesburg, VA. 20176
Dear Mr. President,
As a member of USEA and a participating rider in Eventing I enjoy an amazing relationship with my horse. I care, train, and provide for him in life so he can carry me around courses, on trails, or just relax at home in a pasture. While it was in the back of my mind that one day he may die, I did not put much thought into what that means until a recent discussion appeared on the Chronicles of The Horse forum. This discussion centered on whether there is a need for slaughtering of horses in the United States (where it is currently banned) or is there some other, more humane approach the equine community can advocate and support.
Canada, a country that continues to allow the slaughter of horses had recently done a study, the fourth in a series, documenting a specific slaughter house that had been designed to provide “humane” methods for the killing and disposing of horses. This is a quote from the summary.
The evidence is clear: it is impossible, even in well-designed, conscientiously-managed, assembly-line conditions, to humanely slaughter horses."1
In the course of our discussion, most folks would agree that slaughter is not a viable option for humane disposition, because the fraud, mismanagement, and abuse cannot be controlled at a national level. To put it bluntly, it is too easy on the owner. The taking of a life, even a horse’s life, cannot be easy or profitable to those whose only concern is the bottom line. We cannot control the actions of other countries as it relates to horse slaughter, but there are steps that we, as a country, can begin to take to reduce the level of inhumane treatment of horses as they come to the end of their lives.
This letter is my first step for I feel that organizations like USEA, along with other equine groups can take a united front against any legislation that would open the door to allowing horse slaughter in this country. We, caring horse owners and those who love horses need a voice that can be heard in Washington D.C. My one little voice means little, but a combined shout of No from many could bring awareness to this issue. There were many ideas tossed about on the forum, but they condensed down to these top ideas:
- A ban on any legislation that allows the wholesale slaughter of equine animals within all borders of the United States of America or the existence of slaughter houses within all borders.
- A Transfer fee of an amount greater then a current slaughter value in a host country for every horse that is taken out of the country. The fee would be refundable when then horse is returned back to the United States. This would discourage the attempt to gain profit from collecting and transporting horses across national boundaries for purposes of slaughter.
- Legislative or regulated support from the federal level, but implemented locally in regards to the humane killing and disposing of equine animals with the focus being on helping to defray costs while still requiring an owner to pay for the killing and removal of a horse. Slaughter remains an option to owners because they can just walk away from the responsibility or even worse, make a profit. Local or state municipalities can provide the framework for business opportunities in the humane manner of ending the life of a horse, gruesome as it may be. At a local level it is much easier to regulate and enforce.
- An alternative was to begin requiring a fee on the breeding horses that would be sent to a fund to support the cost of termination of equine animals. Because of the large size, the cost can become prohibitive for some and with their solution bring release into the wild, which is just as bad for the horse.
I own three horses, one of which is getting on in life though I pray I have many more qualities years with her. I am prepared for the eventual time when I have to deal with her death, but I now understand there any many owners that either don’t care, or are unable to handle the death of a horse in a humane way. USEA has shown that it cares about the equine partners that we use for competing in this sport. What I am asking is that this organization help take up the cause of caring for these partners in their last moments. Imagine a Courageous Comet, Neville, or Coal Creek being shoved into a stun box and expand that to all those horses that do not have the same attention or voice in this matter. Mr. President, it is time we step up and become righteous advocates for the equine creatures that we say we care about.
Thank you for taking time to read this letter and I look forward to your response.
Justin P Hull
USEA member #
Thanks for taking the first step, JP60. I don’t show, and my horse is a mutt, so I am not a member of USEA, USEF or any breed organizations. However, I can write to my Senators and Congressmen to address the issues. I’d plan to let them know that slaughter may be necessary, at least no, but requires greater controls, that fees can and should be implemented to fund the controls and the oversight required to ensure they are carried out. I’m torn on the idea of smaller/local v larger/national slaughter. Local does eliminate the travel aspect for the horse in question, but I’m concerned that small local operations can slip beneath any regulatory radar, or that a lack of sufficient federal inspectors will allow poorly run operations to pop up and avoid “good” procedures.
The loudest voices in any legislator’s ear are always those with the deepest pockets. That’s where show and breed organizations can come into play, by indicating that their position is one they share with a large base of members.
