Could someone have a look at the pedigree of this TB ?
He has done a 70 day test in Germany and was presented yesterday at a public event. We were wondering what the pedigree includes looking from the sport in olympic discziplines. He himself left a great impression.
Thank you !
[QUOTE=alexandra;7246503]
Could someone have a look at the pedigree of this TB ?
He has done a 70 day test in Germany and was presented yesterday at a public event. We were wondering what the pedigree includes looking from the sport in olympic discziplines. He himself left a great impression.
Thank you !
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=_p2Bb5&d=asagao[/QUOTE]
The sire was a pretty good race horse, and he comes from one of the greatest modern tail females in thoroughbreds. Allegretta has her own chapter in Edward Bowen’s Matriachs II. She is the dam of Urban Sea, who won the Arc and is the dam of Sea The Stars, Galileo, and Black Sam Bellamy. This line is so very good at racing that it is unlikely to have moved over into sport yet. One Allegretta daughter, Marlene Kelly, is the third dam of a Westfalian junior dressage horse named Rialto 96 who actually has a TB tail female. The rest are far too valuable at racing to be used in sport horse breeding or as sport horses, but they will get there eventually.
Urban Sea is by Miswaki, so the breeders of the sire were clearly trying to come close to replicating her pedigree. Miswaki is the grandsire tail male of Poilu, a TB 4* event horse with Clayton Fredericks who came 5th at Burghley in 2009.
Trempolino seems to be well thought of for jumps racing in France where he stood. He also has either been sent to Brazil or he shuttles. France Galop shows a couple of French 2012 foals. Horse has little or no sport horse presence that I can find. According to France Galop, he had nine AQPS foals, 2 SFs, and about 5 AAs. From what I can gather, he seems to have been a stayer sire. Most of his non-TBs were jumps racers.
Sharpen Up has at least 15 different get who have sport horses descendants who have competed at FEI levels. Ten are stallions, and there are 5 more stallions of which he is damsire. He is also damsire of Anderoo, a US Olympic event horse at Sydney. It’s kind of distant, but he is in the pedigree of a current US Team event horse named Loughan Glen who always does really well in the dressage phase. Sharpen Up is the sire of the (3?) full brothers: Keen, Diesis, and Kris, all out of a mare named Doubly Sure. Diesis is the sire of Halling, who stood in Germany (I think) and is the sire of Duke of Hearts xx who is approved by at least 4 different studbooks, including Holstein, Hannover, the Traks, and Oldenburg. IIRC, he was only approved two or three years ago, so wouldn’t have offspring in sport yet. There is a 3* event horse in the US with Diesis as tail male grandsire. Through a son, Dublin Taxi, Sharpen Up is the grandsire of a horse named Irish Taxi xx who was sent to Belgium where he was used in BWP breeding. He has 4 daughters with FEI level descendants in dressage and jumping. Irish Taxi is also the damsire of Cordino, a German stallion who seems to produce eventers in the main. Irish Taxi is also in the damline of Sugar Brown Babe, who went to the Europeans in eventing with Sarah Ennis for Ireland this year. Kris xx is the sire of seven horses with FEI level descendants, five of whom are stallions and some have descendants who have competed at eventing’s UL. There is a Sharpen Up (tail male)TB granddaughter who is the dam of a BWP dressage mare who competed for Belgium at the Europeans in 2007. Horse’s name is Artic’s Rosantica, and she was the Belgian dressage YH champion at 5 and 6. Of special interest is the mare, Sharp Castan, a daughter of Sharpen Up. She’s the dam of the stallion, Dashing Blade and also dam of Royal Solo, who is the sire of Ibisco who was approved by Holstein for breeding in 2008. Ibisco has already got a Holstein approved son named Ivento who was approved two years ago. You’re going to find Sharpen Ups in Sport all over the world, most in eventing. They are found in South Africa, Oceania, the US, GB, Germany, etc., etc.
Bottom side: Best Turn/Turn-To is one of the all time best sport horse lines in the US. Among many other sport horse descendants, Best Turn is the sire of Brullemail’s late, great TB stallion, Hand In Glove, who competed in the US in both jumping and dressage. Best Turn is very reliable for jumping.
Cox’s Ridge himself is a good line for eventing especially. He’s the grandsire of the Canadian team Pan Games horse with Jessica Phoenix in 2007-Exploring who was a very consistent 3* horse in NA. It’s a line that is well liked here by eventers, but the horses from it are not easy at all. At the FEI levels, I can’t find a Cox’s Ridge 4* event horse, but there are several 3*s. All have competed in eventing. Our Martha’s damsire was Carrier Pigeon, a well known line for sport in the US many decades ago.
Featherhill is the dam of the TB stallion Groom Dancer who is the damsire of an event mare currently with Andreas Dibowski. She was 4th at Le Lion as a 6yo. Name is Eskadia 2. (Another TB damline in Hanover!) Featherhill is also the dam of the TB stallion Pursuit of Love. Her dam, Lady Berry is the dam (by Pharly) of the French stallion Le Nain Jaune. His best sport horse get seems to have been an SF 3* event horse named Green Goblin.
Of all the Northern Dancers, Lyphard seems to me to be the only one that I would accept doubled, and that’s because of his dam Goofed. Lyphard has at least 21 direct get with sporthorse descendants. Of all of them, the most interesting is Dancing Brave who is grandsire of the eventing sire Ghareeb BUT also has a pure TB grandson who had done FEI dressage in Japan. The stallion Likoto is out of a Lyphard’s Wish mare.The stallion Natiello is by a Lyphard son.
Boran was the sire of Laudanum xx, another Brullemail stallion.
M O’Connor here who breeds for jumping has a mare with Turn-To and Pharly. She might have some information for you on those lines and how they have worked for her.
Another Lyphard grandson is the TB stallion Cotopaxi, also in Germany.
Tail female–Buisson Ardente is an excellent sport horse line for just about all disciplines. Son of Relic, from the US Fair Play line, he’s in the lines of many, many sport horses, including Mandiba and High Kingdom, Olympic event horses. The Relic line is also in more than a few WBs. Relic has 29 direct get with FEI level sport horse descendants, and as damsire, he has 18 more. This is one of best sport horse lines for TBs in history.
There seems to be a German TB named Martel xx (sire line Silver Shark) who was Holstein approved. The US Pan Am and Barcelona Olympic event horse Sandscript is also by a Silver Shark son. The Silver Shark tail male grandson Dalby Jaguar was sent to Sweden and has been used for SWB event horse breeding there. A gelding by him, Mr. Dalby went to the Jerez WEGs and two eventing World Cup finals. Mrs. Algotsson bred her mare Princess Fair to Dalby Jaguar and got a mare who has produced an SWB stallion named Fairnando who is currently eventing with Linda.
I can’t find much on the tail female line. It is FF16, but not Agnes. Dam line is French/Irish for a couple of generations. Granddam who was unplaced in 3 races was apparently exported to Germany in foal with Ariostea. GGD Arosa was a pretty good race mare from Ireland and was also a good broodmare who produced two black type winners out of 12 or so foals. Achillea has five foals in the France Galop database and only Ariostea is not shown as a winner. I don’t have access to Ariostea’s race record in Germany, but it should be easy to find.
Tagel stood in France for a short while and then was sent to Tunisia or Turkey. He was a G3 winner in France.
Wow thanks a lot for that long long answer ! I hoped you would give me some short Details, but did not hope for such a long analysis !
I will post later links to pfoto and video from people who saw him the other day and who said they would post them.
Wow, Vineyridge you are incredible! So much knowledge.
But I think I can now add something for her after reading the lonf post !
Duke of Hearts xx is a stallion that I know personally. He was already approved for quite a few years for OLD (since 2005). The ex-owner presented him a few time to Hannover but each time he wanted to do very well and did the jumping part with him (Who seems to have come off the track unsound). So when it came to the riding part - lame… He trained in the arena of my friends, so I have seen him once twice a few years ago. From the first crop three foals were presented at a riding show and my friend really liked them. Later they did approve him (I guess also based on already existing offspring. wtíth OLD brand)
He has a licensed son Duke of Harvard (dam: Harvard - le mexico 2 - Adrian xx) who did a 30 day test. Owned by Headley Stud Eventing LLP, ridden by Andreas Dibwoski in 2012 - sold to China.
Born in the same year: Duke of Diamond - sold to the US. That one won a Beginners-Novice-Prüfung at Full Galopp Farm and a Novice-class at Sporting Days Farm with his result from dressage of 26,5.
Duke of Hearts as bred last year (2012) according to the current owners information to 88 mares. That is rather a lot for a TB stallion in Germany ! But I guess semen was send out all over europe.
Viney, the Wayne’s World scene jumped into my head reading your post:
“We’re not worthy! We’re not worthy!”
You are a font of interesting information. I always enjoy your posts.
The mentioned Eskardia is bred by the same family that bred and owned Ibisco. I was friends with Ibisco’s breeder who unfortunately died of a few years ago.
They imported in the early 90s 4 quite old TB mares and started to use them in breeding. First TB than also in WB breeding.
The mares Silver Form, Idun, A Priori the fourth I do not remember.
Jesus Viney, you continue to astound me 
Such an incredible asset to this forum, thank you for your continuing contributions.
Agree with all of the above, thank you Viney for all the wonderful information you share with us. I love reading your posts because I know I will learn something.
I should add that Asagao has got all three of the TB foundation stallions on the first page of his pedigree with Violon D’Ingres and Buisson Ardent. I firmly believe that this is a very positive thing for breeding, since a huge number of the very best TB sport horse stallions do have all three on the first page, and it’s something that is getting rarer and rarer as time goes on.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7247475]
I should add that Asagao has got all three of the TB foundation stallions on the first page of his pedigree with Violon D’Ingres and Buisson Ardent. I firmly believe that this is a very positive thing for breeding, since a huge number of the very best TB sport horse stallions do have all three on the first page, and it’s something that is getting rarer and rarer as time goes on.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by that expression first page ?
[QUOTE=alexandra;7247954]
What do you mean by that expression first page ?[/QUOTE]
The ancestor line shows up within the first five generations of the pedigree–or in the case of mares in the fifth generation, their sire. I don’t quite know why having all three of the foundation stallions as close as that seems to be important, but there is a mutation on the Y chromosome in the vast majority of TB sires today that is not present in Herod line or Matchem line stallions–or in the King Fergus line of Eclipse/Galopin/St. Simon (Prince Rose today). No one knows yet what the effect of the mutation is or if it even has an effect. But the TBs with all three sire lines within five generations do seem to me to have an advantage where sport horse traits and sport horse breeding are concerned. One of the real TB pedigree experts told me that she thinks it might simply an outcross effect and not something connected to the foundation sires.
And my theory may just be voodoo, seeing patterns where none exist.
FWIW, Northern Dancer meets the test. He has Matchem through Discovery and Chance Shot and Herod through Mumtaz Mahal and Peace–all on the bottom. So does the current Galileo out of Urban Sea, as did his sire Sadler’s Wells.
Where can one see those sirelines?
Go to Pedigree Query and trace the sireline back until you hit Herod, Eclipse or Matchem. Of course, with time you just start to know which lines are which before you have to go all the way back. Australian/Fair Play and Barcaldine/Marco/Hurry On are Matchem; Roi Herode and Dollar/Ksar are Herod. All the rest will be Eclipse. St. Simon is the King Fergus line of Eclipse.
I postulate that because American lines tend to be slightly less Eclipse centered that might be one of several reasons why the introduction of American lines into the European TB has been so effective. Matchem is very scarce in European TBs. And vice versa when Herod returns to the US. It’s Herod that is in real danger of disappearing as a sire line. BTW, take a look at Ben Brush. And Heraldik.
Classic German TB breeding is a whole different story. Their whole version of the TB seems to be based on Pocahontas (1837). And Bay Ronald, of course.
I lurk over here frequently for all the eye candy and interesting insights, but I had to post and just say WOW, fascinating and quite frankly riveting post Viney. Thank you SO much.
Trying to find Matchem is like looking for a needle in a haystack…
[QUOTE=Elles;7249893]
Trying to find Matchem is like looking for a needle in a haystack…[/QUOTE]
Not in the US, since Fair Play was such a great sire and sire line. I THINK the last active Matchem line sire in Europe was Sassafras, who has Matchem top and bottom. He was sent to the US in later life, and his French son Dom Alaric ended up in Canada. The US Matchem line horse Known Fact was exported and raced and stood in Ireland or the UK, and even he came back to the US where he did much better as a racing sire.
Just as a note, Dark Ronald has a top and bottom double to the Matchem line Melbourne, as well as a top and bottom double to the great broodmare Queen Mary who was Herod line.
So Son in Law was/is especially important because of Dark Ronald?
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/621
(female family of Enigma/2-e again)
In Young Lover we also find Son in Law and William the Third (2-e)
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/759
Young Lover is the sire of Cottage Son.
Are there any active Herod stallion lines left in the US? I searched for a few hours last night and couldn’t find any. My Babu appears to be a dead end as far as sons go. The only active one I found in Europe was a hurlder named BonBon Rose…
[QUOTE=Elles;7250069]
So Son in Law was/is especially important because of Dark Ronald?
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/621
(female family of Enigma/2-e again)
In Young Lover we also find Son in Law and William the Third (2-e)
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/759
Young Lover is the sire of Cottage Son.[/QUOTE]
Son-In-Law is also important because he was the sire of Lady Juror, one of the great broodmares (dam of Fair Trial and Sansonnet (dam of Tudor Minstrel–so double Bay Ronald). Through another daughter she is in the Pedigree of Forli’s sire, Aristophanes. For the US and New Zealand, he was sire of Beau Pere. Also sire of Bosworth and Foxlaw. It’s a stayer line that overrode the sprinter propensities of Lady Josephine for one generation. Forli and Tudor Minstrel are TB lines that have done well in German dressage breeding.
Dark Ronald also had all three of the foundations sires on his first page: Matchem through a double to Blink Bonnie and lots of Herod through lots of sources.
I think the Germans are always on the lookout for Bay Ronald for their WB breeding.
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