Clearly I am behind, what did Kenneth L Kraus do, and what does he have to do with the Equestrian industry? I have never heard.
[QUOTE=SLSDelmar;2628516]
Clearly I am behind, what did Kenneth L Kraus do, and what does he have to do with the Equestrian industry? I have never heard.[/QUOTE]
He was convicted of naughty behavior with a minor. Not sure what exactly happened as the details are not accessible outside of the physical records but it was in Palm Beach and it could have been horse show related though there is no way to confirm that without the records. Heâs just one of those ex-elite riders turned equestrian socialite. The only things he does now is announce at upper level shows and write pieces for equestrian websites.
[QUOTE=backinthebay;2628496]
I disagree!
I have no legal background but I have read the rulebook quite a bit. This is not âlikeâ a supermarket or theatre. USEF is a NGB (National governing body) of an organization. It runs these events and says if someone can participate in its events(riding, training, judging walking on it grounds) If you donât believe me ask Barney Ward, Paul Valiere(SP) or the hundreds of other people not allowed on USEF sanctioned events.2007 Rulebook GR703 1(2)
They can suspend someone for ⊠Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of
the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest,
unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the Federation. 2007 Rulebook GR702 1(D)
If the USEF says they cant because of a lawsuit that is BS. I donât think too many CONVICTED predators have won suit to allow them at events with kids. Plus image the suit when an incident happens at a show.
Or worst yet when the first TV camera shows up and no parent send there kid to there first lesson much less show? They have risked the very existence of our sport by turning a blind eye![/QUOTE]
I have to (respectfully) disagree here!
I think the problem you run into here is the USEF is not a court system. These two men have been prosecuted in court for their wrong doings, and under our current system, have âpaidâ for their crimes, or are currently doing so through probation/parole. Furthermore, if the child abuse did not happen on USEF regulated grounds, they have no ground to stand on as far as prohibiting these two men from shows (as I said before, I have no idea what the specifics of the case are⊠) strickly because they are sex offenders. Legally, they canât prohibit them assuming the offences did not happen at a USEF sanctioned event.
The line gets a little fuzzy for me (and this is where details of the case would be helpful for me anyways) if the children that were subjected to abuse were clients, and possibly the only children who were abused were in the horse world. A really good lawyer may be able to argue an aspect of this in an attempt to get them banned, but I personally think it would be a stretch (that said, I have seen some amazing stretches pan outâŠ;)).
I understand that the USEF is a NGB, and I also understand that there are numerous people who are banned from USEF sanctioned eventsâŠBUT the reasons are because these people broke rules that are written out by USEF, not strictly because they have a criminal background, and that is why fellow horse show people would want to ban these two men.
[QUOTE=LexInVA;2628471]
The really disturbing thing (apart from the public tolerance of pedophiles and sex offenders in general) is that there are groups out there which actually support pedophiles and advocate that they should be allowed to be around children as often as they like because they are misunderstood and (in their own opinion) really are no threat to the children and can watch out for the ones who are. I donât know the circumstances of Ken Krausâ offense but I know Soresi would be a poster boy for those people.[/QUOTE]
This makes me shake my head, and sigh deeply. Extensive research shows that sex offenders are the HARDEST out of any criminal to rehabilitate, if it is even possible at all. The percentage that re-offends is outrageous.
[QUOTE=ktm2007;2628575]
I have to (respectfully) disagree here!
I think the problem you run into here is the USEF is not a court system. These two men have been prosecuted in court for their wrong doings, and under our current system, have âpaidâ for their crimes, or are currently doing so through probation/parole. Furthermore, if the child abuse did not happen on USEF regulated grounds, they have no ground to stand on as far as prohibiting these two men from shows (as I said before, I have no idea what the specifics of the case are⊠) strickly because they are sex offenders. Legally, they canât prohibit them assuming the offences did not happen at a USEF sanctioned event.
The line gets a little fuzzy for me (and this is where details of the case would be helpful for me anyways) if the children that were subjected to abuse were clients, and possibly the only children who were abused were in the horse world. A really good lawyer may be able to argue an aspect of this in an attempt to get them banned, but I personally think it would be a stretch (that said, I have seen some amazing stretches pan outâŠ;)).
I understand that the USEF is a NGB, and I also understand that there are numerous people who are banned from USEF sanctioned eventsâŠBUT the reasons are because these people broke rules that are written out by USEF, not strictly because they have a criminal background, and that is why fellow horse show people would want to ban these two men.[/QUOTE]
They arent a court system, they are governing body that has everyright to ban people they deem bad for the sport rule 702. It is not a ârightâ to belong. We all pay due to this organization and if we agree we dont want them we can ban them. As long as we arenât banning them because they are part of a protected class ie race, gender, handicap etc. Preditors arent a protected class.
How many of the horse killings were done at horse shows? Google the court opinions about B. Ward there is no discussion of where, it was just about the acts.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I read your posts on the other thread concerning this topic, and you seem very passionate about this subject, which is a good thing!! I think we would probably run in circles for pages while we argue the cj system and USEFâs rights to suspend someone!
I think itâs a great idea to keep parents AND kids aware of these two men. Education is key!
Parents ARENâT watching them! That is the problem!!!
I havenât read past the first page but the problem is that parents arenât watching their children! I read on here, and hear in real life, SO much about 12 and 13 year olds running around unsupervised at these horse shows. For some reason, giving these children cell phones seems to make parents think they are protected and the parents can just do what they please. I have read here about sending these kids away with trainers, who are off at the ring doing other things and packs of 12 yos running around the barns without adult supervision all day and half the night. WHAT are these parents thinking??? This is NOT 1955!!! I am the mother of a 13yo and you wouldnât believe the situations some of her peers have found themselves in, due to their own ignorance and/or inexperience, and parents are CLUELESS. I am more disgusted with todayâs parenting than I am the USEF, or at least AS disgusted as I am with the predators, believe it or not. By turning these kids loose at horseshows, they are offering them up as bait for not only the known offenders, but all of the new ones that are out thereâŠyou think these two are the only ones out there people???
We just caught a suspected rapist in our townâŠbeen on the loose for 10 years. Iâd like to think parents are naive but honestly, I think they are becoming too lazy to parent.
Rant over. SorryâŠjust gets under my skin.
I agree. Itâs not just equestrian sports. I see it across the map. Parents put their kids in activities as an alternative to day care. As long as they send them off with some kind of adult, they think they are doing a good job. Sad.
.
Evidently that the records of these people is common knowledge in the h/j world. As an eventer I would not know of themâŠthough probably wouldnât be attending shows in which they participate, just schooling shows. But my question isâŠare we to run a background check on judges, other trainers etc. before attending a show? It seems that it is the governing board that has that responsibility. Am I supposed to run a check on judges at each event I attend to be sure there are no sexual offenders there? I support those who say they should certainly be banned from a position of authority such as judging a show. I would think they would not be allowed to attend just as other predators are not allowed to (supposedly) teach school, run a recreation program for children, etc. Some communities have signs in the yard of a predatorâŠmaybe their trailers and show area should have a warning. I am tired of their rights being protected at the expense of others. Yes, I watched my child carefully while she was growing up, but warning of particular dangers would be appreciated.
I donât know, the whole âitâs your responsibility to watch your kidsâ attitude is frustrating to me. I agree with it, but I think itâs a cop out.
I think itâs the organizationâs obligation to ban these people from participating.
Itâs easy to say âoh well, i canât do anything about it, soâŠi watch my kids and you should too.â Well, what about the kids who donât have protective parents (mentioned above) - is it okay for them to be molested? Those are the ones who need to be protected the most.
Makes me sick.
Belladonnalily wrote "Parents ARENâT watching them! That is the problem!!!"
Are you able to watch your 13yr old every minute of everyday? I bet not. Physically imposible unless you are some type of super human.
I agree that parents should be careful of the situations they allow their children to be in. I think that is part of the reason this thread is important. It brings light to the situation that some parents might not have known about otherwise.
I also believe strongly that our governing body has an obligation to address issues such as this.
Flea and Eqluvr
Exactly! And You said it without using half the page like I usually do.
Of course people should watch their kids. But not everyone does. Those kids dont deserve to be molested.
Dont felons lose their right to vote? Then maybe preditors lose the right to work where children are present(they do virtually everywhere else). Dont buy into the hype! USEF has every right to ban these people.
First, I would like to see the USEF take a stance on this issue and ban convicted sex offenders from participating in shows. I understand why they donât, but we should continue to push them to do so.
Second, there are far more unknown/unconvincted sex offenders out there than there are known ones. Banning the known offenders wonât really make our shows that much safer (IMO), it just makes a statement that the governing body will not turn a blind eye.
Third, and most important I think, I completely agree that too many children (of all ages) are running around unattended at the shows. I am continually SHOCKED to see small children (6, 7, 8 years old even) running around with NO PARENTS in sight. Horseshows are dangerous venues due to all of the 1000++lbs animals running around (duh, right??). And by letting those kids run around unsupervised, their parents are basically trusting all of the hundreds/thousands of strangers around them with their childâs safety and well-being. Who DOES that? I just donât understand it, and it makes me really sad. :no:
[QUOTE=backinthebay;2628625]
âŠthey are governing body that has everyright to ban people they deem bad for the sport rule 702. It is not a ârightâ to belong. We all pay due to this organization and if we agree we dont want them we can ban them. As long as we arenât banning them because they are part of a protected class ie race, gender, handicap etc. Preditors arent a protected classâŠ[/QUOTE]
Getting into scary territory here.
Do you think we should ban convicted drunk drivers from show grounds? Definately bad for the sport, your safety, your horseâs safety, your kidâs safety. There are a lot more of those around and we KNOW they have a HUGE record of repeat offenses.
Sould we ban convicted drug offenders? We all know cocaine is pretty addictive - you know those people are bound to keep doing it the rest of their lives. Can you imagine leaving your child - or horse - in the care of one? Or even in the presence of one?
These are just a couple of the court labeled offenders - we could certainly delve into other groups who donât yet have âprotectedâ (as you say) status - blondes, for instance. Like you said, we can just get together and agree we donât want them and get them banned. Personally, I have had a lot of trouble in the past with blondes (donât want to hijack this thread so wonât go into it here) and I know of several other people who also wouldnât dream of leaving their child alone with one. I hadnât thought of it before, but maybe getting them banned from all the organizations I belong to would make my life so much easier. hmmmâŠ
[QUOTE=moonriverfarm;2624907]
There is something extremely upsetting and offensive about having a sexual predator watching little girls in tight pants posting on a horse.:mad:[/QUOTE]
Ugh. This mental image makes me sick. I wonât state on a public board why this whole issue strikes close to home, but I will say that tolerance of it is just plain wrong.
please keep in mind that there can be a very large (and legal) difference between a sexual offender and a sexual predator. The two are not necessarily the same. The poster who came up with the image that makes you so sick created it themselves.
It is sick. Do you think a soccer coach or little league coach would be allowed at the games if they were a convicted sexual predator? Am I wrong or was Jimmy Doyle also caught doing the same thing a few years ago? I donât think there are many people who do background checks on a trainer before going to them but if you were an employer looking to hire someone you certainly would perform a background check. Perhaps this is the way to go?
[QUOTE=spina;2629528]
Getting into scary territory here.
Do you think we should ban convicted drunk drivers from show grounds? Definately bad for the sport, your safety, your horseâs safety, your kidâs safety. There are a lot more of those around and we KNOW they have a HUGE record of repeat offenses.
Sould we ban convicted drug offenders? We all know cocaine is pretty addictive - you know those people are bound to keep doing it the rest of their lives. Can you imagine leaving your child - or horse - in the care of one? Or even in the presence of one?
These are just a couple of the court labeled offenders - we could certainly delve into other groups who donât yet have âprotectedâ (as you say) status - blondes, for instance. Like you said, we can just get together and agree we donât want them and get them banned. Personally, I have had a lot of trouble in the past with blondes (donât want to hijack this thread so wonât go into it here) and I know of several other people who also wouldnât dream of leaving their child alone with one. I hadnât thought of it before, but maybe getting them banned from all the organizations I belong to would make my life so much easier. hmmmâŠ[/QUOTE]
You are so right and your argument makes perfect sense! I mean Drunk drivers are almost the same as a sexual predator or someone that possesses kiddie porn. The numbers definitely support your argument. Because most DUI offenders get a second one. Someone that go caught smoking pot in college is definitely a threat to children and horses. Blondes should be shot on site! I mean they can scar children for life.
I was so stupid to not see these things! Sometimes I just cant believe how I could miss something so obvious!
The only thing that I cant figure out is why they ban sex offenders from schools or even living near schools? They dont usually do this with the other crimes? Hum thats strange. Maybe you start a petition to change that.
Some people might say in order to avoid a possible slippery slope from sexual offenders to someone that had three beers after work instead of one and drove home you are not using common sense. I say nonsense you are right on! These are just the same and you make some great points!
This does kinda of seem like a weird post coming from someone who thinks we should drug test riders?
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=107885
[QUOTE=spina;2629528]
Getting into scary territory here.
Do you think we should ban convicted drunk drivers from show grounds? Definately bad for the sport, your safety, your horseâs safety, your kidâs safety. There are a lot more of those around and we KNOW they have a HUGE record of repeat offenses.
Sould we ban convicted drug offenders? We all know cocaine is pretty addictive - you know those people are bound to keep doing it the rest of their lives. Can you imagine leaving your child - or horse - in the care of one? Or even in the presence of one?
These are just a couple of the court labeled offenders - we could certainly delve into other groups who donât yet have âprotectedâ (as you say) status - blondes, for instance. Like you said, we can just get together and agree we donât want them and get them banned. Personally, I have had a lot of trouble in the past with blondes (donât want to hijack this thread so wonât go into it here) and I know of several other people who also wouldnât dream of leaving their child alone with one. I hadnât thought of it before, but maybe getting them banned from all the organizations I belong to would make my life so much easier. hmmmâŠ[/QUOTE]
That is a pretty slippery slope from people who do horrible things to children to someone who had had a DUI or did drugs in college or blondes? Some might say you are taking common sense out of equation.
Weird post from someone who believes we should drug test riders. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=107885
This is so far from any course of logic that I would on suggest you do a little homework. Most people who do these crimes against children repeat given the opportunity. Most DUI offenders dont repeat. How many people did drugs in college and grew out of it. These are serious issues but come on!
Obviously, Ken Krauss hasnât been banned, although my guess is, until the Sex offender list went online, very few people knew about it, but has the USEF actually made a statement about JS, or have they turned down rule change porposals âspecificallyâ dealing with predators?
I would think a simple rule change proposal, worded simply that people convicted of felony sexual behavior be banned, would be hard to turn down.
